Everything that God does is good

[Osage Bluestem]

The wicked intent of the doer is what makes an action evil.

For instance, God preordains all that will come to pass....

There was a rape last night in Moscow. God preordained that rape to come to pass and in the end it will work out for good, so God being holy has ordained that to happen and his holy intent actually makes that rape good in reality, but the intent of the raper and the demons involved in cheering it on and enjoying it make it an evil, because they willed the pain and harm for a terrible purpose, whereas God willed it for good, so in reality it is indeed good the rape happened and will be revealed someday to be good when it is shown that all things worked for the Holy will of God.

Therefore evil is only intended and perceived, but really we live under a Holy sovereign God so everything that happens is Holy and good....

Problems?

 

[smhbbag]

Problems?

Many.

The wicked intent of the doer is what makes an action evil.

Wicked intent is not required for an action to be evil. A God-fearing, love-motivated Christian can do great evil by acting on false doctrine.

God preordained that rape to come to pass and in the end it will work out for good, so God being holy has ordained that to happen and his holy intent actually makes that rape good in reality

This does not follow. God's use of a preordained evil does not change the reality or nature of the evil itself.

Rape is never, in any sense, good. Full stop.

There is a Grand Canyon separating that from the statement that God works all things for good.

whereas God willed it for good, so in reality it is indeed good the rape happened and will be revealed someday to be good when it is shown that all things worked for the Holy will of God.

Same problem here - the rape will never be revealed to be good. It never was, and never can be.

There are too many times in scripture to count in which an action was called wicked, where the thing done is wicked, without any specific reference to motive.

Why? Because improper motive can only ADD to wickedness, and no "good" motive can make up for it.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Problems?

Many.

The wicked intent of the doer is what makes an action evil.

Wicked intent is not required for an action to be evil. A God-fearing, love-motivated Christian can do great evil by acting on false doctrine.

God preordained that rape to come to pass and in the end it will work out for good, so God being holy has ordained that to happen and his holy intent actually makes that rape good in reality

This does not follow. God's use of a preordained evil does not change the reality or nature of the evil itself.

Rape is never, in any sense, good. Full stop.

There is a Grand Canyon separating that from the statement that God works all things for good.

whereas God willed it for good, so in reality it is indeed good the rape happened and will be revealed someday to be good when it is shown that all things worked for the Holy will of God.

Same problem here - the rape will never be revealed to be good. It never was, and never can be.

There are too many times in scripture to count in which an action was called wicked, where the thing done is wicked, without any specific reference to motive.

Why? Because improper motive can only ADD to wickedness, and no "good" motive can make up for it.

I don't understand why. Since we all know God is sovereign, and he wills everything to come to pass, and he works all things according to the purpose of his will, then all things indeed do have a good purpose on the infinite level.

So if God really is sovereign, and really is holy, then the only thing evil about the rape was the intent of those involved, God's intent in it was good.

We are told about this principle in Genesis:

Genesis 50:20 KJV
[20] But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

We are not always given the information regarding why an event was good, but if God is sovereign and Holy , I believe every event is indeed good because every event is his will.

We see that bad things (by our perception) happen to good people because God loves them and has a good instructional purpose in them, so those "bad" things really are good!

Hebrews 12:5-8 KJV
[5] And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
[6] For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
[7] If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
[8] But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

---------- Post added at 01:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:03 PM ----------

No real evil?!?!!??!!!!

So Christ died for "no real evils" committed by His elect? The reprobate will owe a debt and continually attempt to pay said debt for all eternity, but this due to "no real evil"?!?!!

Yes. Sin is evil. Sin is wicked. It is better to suffer the greatest affliction than to commit the least of sins. It's very wicked and evil. Praise be to the Almighty Who overrules it for His glory, but that doesn't make sin any less evil. We're not privy to all the "whys" of God, and sometimes we stick our noses where they don't belong.

Sure. It is evil in the heart of man...but any actions God has ordained to come to pass are in effect good because of his Holieness and sovereignty, so in the end, evil is powerless, and is simply made up and created by man, who is not a creator by the created, God is sovereign so all that really happens is good, and evil in eternity doesn't really exist in any real sense because it is only in the heart of the wicked.

I've had cause to chew on this one recently, and I've come to this conclusion, because I believe al things are subject to God's sovereignty.

 

[au5t1n]

We see that bad things (by our perception) happen to good people because God loves them and has a good instructional purpose in them, so those "bad" things really are good!

As Jeremy explained above, this is a non-sequitur. You are reasoning that because God works all things for good, all things are therefore good, but that does not follow. The correct equation is "God works good out of bad things," not "God works good out of all things, so all things are good."

 

[smhbbag]

I'll have to respond later tonight. I need to head to work. I tried responding to the last post a few times, and I just don't have a comb strong enough to untangle that clump of non-sequitors and equivocation in 5 minutes.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Ok. Can we change the title of the thread to: Everything that God does is good. Joshua, any moderator???

Although I have used a weird title and a lot of explainations, this is my assertion:

I believe that everything God does has a holy purpose. So if he has preordained everything then that means everything has a holy purpose.

Ephesians 1:11 KJV
[11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

That passage says he works all things according to the purpose of his will, not some things.

 

[smhbbag]

Ok. Can we change the title of the thread to: Everything that God does is good. Joshua, any moderator???

Although I have used a weird title and a lot of explainations, this is my assertion:

I believe that everything God does has a holy purpose. So if he has preordained everything then that means everything has a holy purpose.

Ephesians 1:11 KJV
[11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

That passage says he works all things according to the purpose of his will, not some things.

Everything here is perfectly accurate. It's all that really needs to be said on this issue.

I would suggest you look at your other posts, and note the difference in degree.

I think, in light of this, that it would be wise to revisit your definition of evil.

 

[earl40]

This reminds me of Good Friday. The "evil" act of the people who put Jesus to death resulted in good.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Ok. Can we change the title of the thread to: Everything that God does is good. Joshua, any moderator???

Although I have used a weird title and a lot of explainations, this is my assertion:

I believe that everything God does has a holy purpose. So if he has preordained everything then that means everything has a holy purpose.

Ephesians 1:11 KJV
[11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

That passage says he works all things according to the purpose of his will, not some things.

Everything here is perfectly accurate. It's all that really needs to be said on this issue.

I would suggest you look at your other posts, and note the difference in degree.

I think, in light of this, that it would be wise to revisit your definition of evil.

Thanks. I was getting a bit worried there. I wish the mods would rename the thread.....

---------- Post added at 04:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:24 PM ----------

This reminds me of Good Friday. The "evil" act of the people who put Jesus to death resulted in good.

Right, and God predestined that act to take place. Since he is holy, the act works out to a holy purpose but those who commited the act had evil intent and are drawing judgment upon themselves because of it.

For instance, God willed to bruise Christ, for God it was a great display of holieness, for those who did the act it was murder of an innocent man.

Isa.53
[1] Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
[2] For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
[3] He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
[4] Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
[5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
[6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
[7] He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
[8] He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
[9] And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
[10] Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
[11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
[12] Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[Herald]

David,

There was a rape last night in Moscow. God preordained that rape to come to pass and in the end it will work out for good, so God being holy has ordained that to happen and his holy intent actually makes that rape good in reality

There is a principle in scripture that God can take evil and use it for good. That is not in question. What does not happen is God making evil good. Evil is evil. Sin is sin. Evil cannot lose it's evil, and sin cannot lose it's sinfulness.

Isaiah 5:20 20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Evil's birth place is darkness, and we are not to have any fellowship with either.

2 Corinthians 6:14 14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?

What we cannot afford to do is blur the lines of distinction between good and evil, and somehow allow God's providence to color the evil as good. Evil always is cloaked in darkness, just as the nature of the unsaved person is darkened by sin (Psalm 82:5; Ephesians 5:8). Evil and darkness are inexorably linked. Joseph understood this.

Genesis 39:9 9 "How then could I do this great evil, and sin against God?"

I am not accusing you of straying into gnostic heresy, but the loss of perspective on evil is the beginning of such an error. The Doetic Gnostics believed that God and flesh could not mingle because the flesh was evil. This belief lead to a host of false teachings, some of which are alive today. The Jehovah's Witnesses are case in point. They have separated the divine from Christ. The truth is that evil is very much alive in this world, and there are those who abide in it to the point where they are correctly described as evil.

Psalm 28:3 3 Do not drag me away with the wicked And with those who work iniquity; Who speak peace with their neighbors, While evil is in their hearts.

1689 LBC Chapter 6

3. They being the root, and by God's appointment, standing in the room and stead of all mankind, the guilt of the sin was imputed, and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation, being now conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath, the servants of sin, the subjects of death, and all other miseries, spiritual, temporal, and eternal, unless the Lord Jesus set them free.
( Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 45, 49; Psalms 51:5; Job 14:4; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 6:20 Romans 5:12; Hebrews 2:14, 15; 1 Thessalonians 1:10 )

4. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.
( Romans 8:7; Colossians 1:21; James 1:14, 15; Matthew 15:19 )

WCF Chapter 6

III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed; and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.

IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.

Note how both confessions deal with the imputation of sin, death, and the inclination of man to do evil. Unsaved men are not only dead in sin, they are evil; both in their position and their works. Even though God can take evil and turn it on it's head, and use it for good, does not undo the evil contained therein. Evil is evil. If you wish to elaborate on how God can overcome evil and use it for good, then I offer a hearty, "amen!" But let's see evil for what it is; as scripture regards it, and as our confessions accurately surmise.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

David,

There was a rape last night in Moscow. God preordained that rape to come to pass and in the end it will work out for good, so God being holy has ordained that to happen and his holy intent actually makes that rape good in reality

There is a principle in scripture that God can take evil and use it for good. That is not in question. What does not happen is God making evil good. Evil is evil. Sin is sin. Evil cannot lose it's evil, and sin cannot lose it's sinfulness.

Isaiah 5:20 20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Evil's birth place is darkness, and we are not to have any fellowship with either.

2 Corinthians 6:14 14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?

What we cannot afford to do is blur the lines of distinction between good and evil, and somehow allow God's providence to color the evil as good. Evil always is cloaked in darkness, just as the nature of the unsaved person is darkened by sin (Psalm 82:5; Ephesians 5:8). Evil and darkness are inexorably linked. Joseph understood this.

Genesis 39:9 9 "How then could I do this great evil, and sin against God?"

I am not accusing you of straying into gnostic heresy, but the loss of perspective on evil is the beginning of such an error. The Doetic Gnostics believed that God and flesh could not mingle because the flesh was evil. This belief lead to a host of false teachings, some of which are alive today. The Jehovah's Witnesses are case in point. They have separated the divine from Christ. The truth is that evil is very much alive in this world, and there are those who abide in it to the point where they are correctly described as evil.

Psalm 28:3 3 Do not drag me away with the wicked And with those who work iniquity; Who speak peace with their neighbors, While evil is in their hearts.

1689 LBC Chapter 6

3. They being the root, and by God's appointment, standing in the room and stead of all mankind, the guilt of the sin was imputed, and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation, being now conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath, the servants of sin, the subjects of death, and all other miseries, spiritual, temporal, and eternal, unless the Lord Jesus set them free.
( Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 45, 49; Psalms 51:5; Job 14:4; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 6:20 Romans 5:12; Hebrews 2:14, 15; 1 Thessalonians 1:10 )

4. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.
( Romans 8:7; Colossians 1:21; James 1:14, 15; Matthew 15:19 )

WCF Chapter 6

III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed; and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.

IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.

Note how both confessions deal with the imputation of sin, death, and the inclination of man to do evil. Unsaved men are not only dead in sin, they are evil; both in their position and their works. Even though God can take evil and turn it on it's head, and use it for good, does not undo the evil contained therein. Evil is evil. If you wish to elaborate on how God can overcome evil and use it for good, then I offer a heart, "amen!" But let's see evil for what it is; as scripture regards it, and as our confessions accurately surmise.

Thanks,

So it is still evil, but God does only good, so for him the act will result in good even though it is a great evil made so by the evil of the creatures who did it, in other words:

God has preordained evil to be used to work out for the good. Since he is holy it is always holy whatever he does, and his cleaning up the mess, persay, is a massive display of holieness that brings him much glory.

Does that work?

 

[Herald]

David,

There was a rape last night in Moscow. God preordained that rape to come to pass and in the end it will work out for good, so God being holy has ordained that to happen and his holy intent actually makes that rape good in reality

There is a principle in scripture that God can take evil and use it for good. That is not in question. What does not happen is God making evil good. Evil is evil. Sin is sin. Evil cannot lose it's evil, and sin cannot lose it's sinfulness.

Isaiah 5:20 20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Evil's birth place is darkness, and we are not to have any fellowship with either.

2 Corinthians 6:14 14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?

What we cannot afford to do is blur the lines of distinction between good and evil, and somehow allow God's providence to color the evil as good. Evil always is cloaked in darkness, just as the nature of the unsaved person is darkened by sin (Psalm 82:5; Ephesians 5:8). Evil and darkness are inexorably linked. Joseph understood this.

Genesis 39:9 9 "How then could I do this great evil, and sin against God?"

I am not accusing you of straying into gnostic heresy, but the loss of perspective on evil is the beginning of such an error. The Doetic Gnostics believed that God and flesh could not mingle because the flesh was evil. This belief lead to a host of false teachings, some of which are alive today. The Jehovah's Witnesses are case in point. They have separated the divine from Christ. The truth is that evil is very much alive in this world, and there are those who abide in it to the point where they are correctly described as evil.

Psalm 28:3 3 Do not drag me away with the wicked And with those who work iniquity; Who speak peace with their neighbors, While evil is in their hearts.

1689 LBC Chapter 6

3. They being the root, and by God's appointment, standing in the room and stead of all mankind, the guilt of the sin was imputed, and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation, being now conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath, the servants of sin, the subjects of death, and all other miseries, spiritual, temporal, and eternal, unless the Lord Jesus set them free.
( Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 45, 49; Psalms 51:5; Job 14:4; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 6:20 Romans 5:12; Hebrews 2:14, 15; 1 Thessalonians 1:10 )

4. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.
( Romans 8:7; Colossians 1:21; James 1:14, 15; Matthew 15:19 )

WCF Chapter 6

III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed; and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.

IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.

Note how both confessions deal with the imputation of sin, death, and the inclination of man to do evil. Unsaved men are not only dead in sin, they are evil; both in their position and their works. Even though God can take evil and turn it on it's head, and use it for good, does not undo the evil contained therein. Evil is evil. If you wish to elaborate on how God can overcome evil and use it for good, then I offer a heart, "amen!" But let's see evil for what it is; as scripture regards it, and as our confessions accurately surmise.

Thanks,

So it is still evil, but God does only good, so for him the act will result in good even though it is a great evil made so by the evil of the creatures who did it, in other words:

God has preordained evil to be used to work out for the good. Since he is holy it is always holy whatever he does, and his cleaning up the mess, persay, is a massive display of holieness that brings him much glory.

Does that work?

Yes, that works in the vernacular. God is glorified in that evil can not triumph over good (for all good comes from God). Evil may have temporal victory, but is ultimately vanquished by our holy God.

Revelation 22:11 11 "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and let the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and let the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."

 

[Osage Bluestem]

David,

There was a rape last night in Moscow. God preordained that rape to come to pass and in the end it will work out for good, so God being holy has ordained that to happen and his holy intent actually makes that rape good in reality

There is a principle in scripture that God can take evil and use it for good. That is not in question. What does not happen is God making evil good. Evil is evil. Sin is sin. Evil cannot lose it's evil, and sin cannot lose it's sinfulness.

Isaiah 5:20 20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Evil's birth place is darkness, and we are not to have any fellowship with either.

2 Corinthians 6:14 14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?

What we cannot afford to do is blur the lines of distinction between good and evil, and somehow allow God's providence to color the evil as good. Evil always is cloaked in darkness, just as the nature of the unsaved person is darkened by sin (Psalm 82:5; Ephesians 5:8). Evil and darkness are inexorably linked. Joseph understood this.

Genesis 39:9 9 "How then could I do this great evil, and sin against God?"

I am not accusing you of straying into gnostic heresy, but the loss of perspective on evil is the beginning of such an error. The Doetic Gnostics believed that God and flesh could not mingle because the flesh was evil. This belief lead to a host of false teachings, some of which are alive today. The Jehovah's Witnesses are case in point. They have separated the divine from Christ. The truth is that evil is very much alive in this world, and there are those who abide in it to the point where they are correctly described as evil.

Psalm 28:3 3 Do not drag me away with the wicked And with those who work iniquity; Who speak peace with their neighbors, While evil is in their hearts.

1689 LBC Chapter 6

3. They being the root, and by God's appointment, standing in the room and stead of all mankind, the guilt of the sin was imputed, and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation, being now conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath, the servants of sin, the subjects of death, and all other miseries, spiritual, temporal, and eternal, unless the Lord Jesus set them free.
( Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 45, 49; Psalms 51:5; Job 14:4; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 6:20 Romans 5:12; Hebrews 2:14, 15; 1 Thessalonians 1:10 )

4. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.
( Romans 8:7; Colossians 1:21; James 1:14, 15; Matthew 15:19 )

WCF Chapter 6

III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed; and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.

IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.

Note how both confessions deal with the imputation of sin, death, and the inclination of man to do evil. Unsaved men are not only dead in sin, they are evil; both in their position and their works. Even though God can take evil and turn it on it's head, and use it for good, does not undo the evil contained therein. Evil is evil. If you wish to elaborate on how God can overcome evil and use it for good, then I offer a heart, "amen!" But let's see evil for what it is; as scripture regards it, and as our confessions accurately surmise.

Thanks,

So it is still evil, but God does only good, so for him the act will result in good even though it is a great evil made so by the evil of the creatures who did it, in other words:

God has preordained evil to be used to work out for the good. Since he is holy it is always holy whatever he does, and his cleaning up the mess, persay, is a massive display of holieness that brings him much glory.

Does that work?

Yes, that works in the vernacular. God is glorified in that evil can not triumph over good (for all good comes from God). Evil may have temporal victory, but is ultimately vanquished by our holy God.

Revelation 22:11 11 "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and let the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and let the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."

That makes me excited. Thanks.