Free Will Question

[govteach51]

I must find a new church, the pastor of my church went off in yesterday's sermon on "Free Will." I got so mad on his positive stance I got up and left...before I go into his office and blast him, do any of you have a suggestion? Scriptures I may have missed? Can I call him a heretic and get away with it....( I am fairly new to the board and if I have placed this in the forum, please forgive me.)

 

[nicnap]

Firstly, don' t go to his office and "blast him". It is a Southern Baptist Church, not a Reformed Baptist Church. Secondly, when you correct someone, it is not to be done in a spirit of "there I showed you." It is to be done in as spirit of love -- out of sadness that he holds to a doctrine that is false. If you are planning to show him his error, it must be done being, as wise as a serpent, and as harmless as a dove.

 

[Tim]

Take a deep breath and relax. All of us on the PB have, at one time or another, come across wayward doctrine that drives us crazy. It's out there. It's not new. It's not uncommon. I see that you are a seminary grad, so you already know this to be the case. I don't know the doctrinal position at your seminary and what you were taught there. Have you perhaps been recently convinced of the doctrines of grace? I don't want to assume anything either way.

What was the sermon passage? What exactly does he mean by "free will"? What did he actually say? Ask him for clarification of everything he said. Exhaustively. And only address this with him when you are over your initial frustration.

Calling him a heretic would not be the way, brother. Your pastor is deserving of honor and respect.

 

[govteach51]

Sorry Nicnap......was a bit strong in use of my wording....I am so unhappy where I am, but the nearest Reform or Presbyterian ( PCA) church is over 35 miles away....

 

[nicnap]

Sorry Nicnap......was a bit strong in use of my wording....I am so unhappy where I am, but the nearest Reform or Presbyterian ( PCA) church is over 35 miles away....

No apologies to me are necessary, friend. I just did not want to see you "blast him" and lose all future opportunities to share the truth with him. If you isolate him in your first encounter, you will not likely get a second. That was my concern. I would rather you be winsome, and overtime nudge him along (particularly if you are older than he); it could be a great benefit to you and to him.

I would suggest getting to know him. You will gain his ear more through that, than through less subtle approaches.

 

[rookie]

I had the same experience with one of the elders in my church. What I did was ask him out for a lunch (casual, informal and open for discussion in a restaurant, great because we won't get heated),

I asked him to define free will (since even Calvinists believe in free will, only it's hindered by our depravity). And build from there. Find out why he believes what he does, and have your scriptures ready. But not to say "I know more scripture than you", but to let him know you are not interested in human opinions, but you are interested in what scripture says....in its context.

 

[Peairtach]

There are different types of free will.

God sovereignly maintains our responsibility and free will or free agency by His omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience. Otherwise our thoughts, words and actions would be determined by chance, fate and nature, as the more consistent atheists affirm.

On the other hand our wills are morally bound by sin.

Westminster Confession

Chapter IX
Of Free Will

I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.

II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin; and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.

V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.

 

[Loopie]

The difficulty is that the term 'free will' is so loaded that it takes a ten to fifteen minute conversation between two people before they actually end up on the same page concerning what they are talking about. For this reason I try to avoid the term altogether (I will question their use of it, but I will not use the term in any description of the human condition), as it usually causes nothing but confusion and has many misunderstood meanings. Human will is not 'free' in the sense that it is autonomous or uninfluenced by anything in the universe. Only God's will is truly and absolutely free. Humans have 'a will', but it is not 'free' (the natural man is a slave to sin). I like the term 'human agency', since this seems to be a less loaded word when used in general conversation with people. Just my two cents.

 

[KMK]

Consider carefully the words of your own confession in light of your pastor's sermon. The issue of free will is rather nuanced and you and your pastor may not be as far apart as you think.

LBC Chapter 9

Paragraph 1. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil.1
1 Matt. 17:12; James 1:14; Deut. 30:19

Paragraph 2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good and well-pleasing to God,2 but yet was unstable, so that he might fall from it.3
2 Eccles. 7:29
3 Gen. 3:6

Paragraph 3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation;4 so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin,5 is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.6
4 Rom. 5:6, 8:7
5 Eph. 2:1,5
6 Titus 3:3-5; John 6:44

Paragraph 4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin,7 and by His grace alone enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;8 yet so as that by reason of his remaining corruptions, he does not perfectly, nor only will, that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.9
7 Col. 1:13; John 8:36
8 Phil. 2:13
9 Rom. 7:15,18,19,21,23

Paragraph 5. This will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone in
the state of glory only.10
10 Eph. 4:13

 

[RobertPGH1981]

When approaching people on this topic never refer to terms like Calvin, reformed theology ect.. It will turn people off on the topic. The best thing to do is find errors in his sermon and ask questions about what he said. Instead of trying to debate, lead the conversation by asking questions about what he meant, and how the verses he used coincides with other verses in scripture. Like Nincap said, the ultimate goal hear isn't to win a debate, but to lovingly point him in the right direction.

From a guy who used to "blast" people.

 

[jandrusk]

Find an OPC church?

 

[Andres]

I am so unhappy where I am, but the nearest Reform or Presbyterian ( PCA) church is over 35 miles away....

I don't have anything to add to the already given advice, except to add that I think a 30 min drive is well worth it for a solidly, confessional church. Many here on the board wished they only had a 30 min drive. Have you ever visited the PCA church?

 

[rookie]

Based on google maps, I have a 31 minute drive to get to mine.....

 

[J. Dean]

I must find a new church, the pastor of my church went off in yesterday's sermon on "Free Will." I got so mad on his positive stance I got up and left...before I go into his office and blast him, do any of you have a suggestion? Scriptures I may have missed? Can I call him a heretic and get away with it....( I am fairly new to the board and if I have placed this in the forum, please forgive me.)

You attract more flies with sugar than you do with vinegar.

I feel your pain. As somebody stuck in a Sunday morning church that is anything but Calvinist, I have to cringe when "free will" is brought up (although the pastor last Sunday, in a rare moment of profundity, did a sermon that sounded unusually Calvinistic for him! You know what they say about a stopped clock....). As was advised earlier, do it in a spirit of love. Recall I Timothy 5, to "entreat (an elder) as a father," which is I believe an apt application for dealing with a pastor.

Not to get off topic too much, but I'll use myself as an example here. Just recently I sat down and wrote a letter dealing with an evangelist involved with a non-charismatic denomination who seems to be enamored with the "signs and wonders" movement, and has publicly stated that he compares his ministry to Benny's (the context implying that he was referring to charismatic Benny Hinn; I can't think of another well-known minister with the same first name).

After the first draft, I went back through it to be very careful about my wording so as not to imply any sort of personal attack on anybody, being careful to keep the focus on the doctrinal issues. Although the letter may be disagreed with, I at least did my part to make sure that the letter was written in a loving yet earnest manner, so nobody can say "You attacked so-and-so on a personal level." It's something that is learned with great care, great attention, and great accountability (it's a good idea to have a person in whom you can confide who will-without gossping about it-look at your intended statements and offer helpful criticism in their delivery).

But I've not always been so charitable with my words in the past, and the advice here to be charitable is sound. Be charitable. Be honest and unwavering when standing on the Scriptures, but be charitable as well.

 

[moral necessity]

The problems are increased when you have children to consider. Do you let such erroneous teachings soak into their mind for you to have to pull out later? How much do you let slide? As a single person, I would tend to be more flexible. As a husband/father, I would be more firm about certain teachings, depending on their potential danger, and a higher gas budget would be prioritized if it could be afforded.

Blessings!

 

[govteach51]

Let me clarify what I mean in the preacher usage of "Free Will." This is a very libertarian version. Almost to the point that there would be no preservation of the saints, yet, he believes in the old Baptist " once saved always saved." Or at least he says he does....I think deep down believes it is not so....

 

[M21195]

The difficulty is that the term 'free will' is so loaded that it takes a ten to fifteen minute conversation between two people before they actually end up on the same page concerning what they are talking about. For this reason I try to avoid the term altogether (I will question their use of it, but I will not use the term in any description of the human condition), as it usually causes nothing but confusion and has many misunderstood meanings. Human will is not 'free' in the sense that it is autonomous or uninfluenced by anything in the universe. Only God's will is truly and absolutely free. Humans have 'a will', but it is not 'free' (the natural man is a slave to sin). I like the term 'human agency', since this seems to be a less loaded word when used in general conversation with people. Just my two cents.

 

[KMK]

Let me clarify what I mean in the preacher usage of "Free Will."

That would be helpful.

Does he teach Arminianism?

Free will is unable to begin or to perfect any true and spiritual good, without grace.... This grace [prœvenit] goes before, accompanies, and follows; it excites, assists, operates that we will, and co operates lest we will in vain.

 

[govteach51]

Let me clarify what I mean in the preacher usage of "Free Will."

That would be helpful.

Does he teach Arminianism?

Free will is unable to begin or to perfect any true and spiritual good, without grace.... This grace [prœvenit] goes before, accompanies, and follows; it excites, assists, operates that we will, and co operates lest we will in vain.

With the exception of the "Preservation of the Saints" it is pretty much an Arminian view of salvation, but most Baptist preachers in Texas have that view...In the 1980s when I went to the Baptist seminary in Ft Worth, there was group of profs who were Calvinists, this said with Paige Patterson taking over the Ft Worth seminary as her own personal fiefdom, the Calvinists either left( were fired by Patterson) to go to Southern in Louisville or Southeastern in N. Carolina.
The Calvinists in the denomination are in Dallas, Austin, Houston, there are few in SE Texas.

 

[J. Dean]

With the exception of the "Preservation of the Saints" it is pretty much an Arminian view of salvation, but most Baptist preachers in Texas have that view...In the 1980s when I went to the Baptist seminary in Ft Worth, there was group of profs who were Calvinists, this said with Paige Patterson taking over the Ft Worth seminary as her own personal fiefdom, the Calvinists either left( were fired by Patterson) to go to Southern in Louisville or Southeastern in N. Carolina.
The Calvinists in the denomination are in Dallas, Austin, Houston, there are few in SE Texas.

For the record, Arminianism has never been completely monolithic with regard to the preservation of the saints. While doing a study on Arminius himself, I found it interesting that he vacillated on the point all the way up until his death, in part because he realized that teaching the loss of salvation opened the door for works-righteousness.

 

[BJClark]

govteach51;

Let me clarify what I mean in the preacher usage of "Free Will." This is a very libertarian version. Almost to the point that there would be no preservation of the saints, yet, he believes in the old Baptist " once saved always saved." Or at least he says he does....I think deep down believes it is not so....

I think making a time to meet with him to gain clarification on what he meant would be the most gracious thing to do.

Given your comment "I think deep down believes it is not so" many men and women of faith have struggled with this, possibly most on this board have struggled through the scriptures coming to terms and understanding of God's imputation of Christ's righteousness upon us, where it is not about us, but about what God Himself has done on our behalf, as if we play any part in our own salvation.

If you are not sure what he truly believes, then ask him, don't assume. If you find that he does believe he can lose his salvation, then that is something to pray about on His behalf and maybe sit down with him as a friend and encourage him, challenging him in love as to what he really believes to be true of God, based on what the scripture says--but you won't know what he really believes until You ask him.

But even before going and speaking to him pray for him and continue to do so....