Free Will Song

[a mere housewife]

Gail PCC at least isn't accredited: neither was the other college I attended. yes you are right that it's very damaging for the students. In some ways it's just as tragic that these places are training parents, husbands, and wives as that they are training pastors.

Charlie your words came back to me this morning, thinking of my own tendency to doubt the promises of God. I do think it's a pretty blatant form of error to make a statement about Scripture that God is basically not to be believed, testing our 'gullibility', when he speaks of those predestined to destruction; but it's not really any less damaging to cringe in your heart from believing the promises of electing love. Thanks again.

 

[calgal]

Gail PCC at least isn't accredited: neither was the other college I attended. yes you are right that it's very damaging for the students. In some ways it's just as tragic that these places are training parents, husbands, and wives as that they are training pastors.

Charlie your words came back to me this morning, thinking of my own tendency to doubt the promises of God. I do think it's a pretty blatant form of error to make a statement about Scripture that God is basically not to be believed, testing our 'gullibility', when he speaks of those predestined to destruction; but it's not really any less damaging to cringe in your heart from believing the promises of electing love. Thanks again.

Have these folks always come from a place of fear? One thing I love about the Reformed Faith is the lack of fear (the if I break this (man made) rule then God will be mad at me and I will be left behind kind of fear) and the acknowledgement we are all sinners but for the Grace of God.

 

[a mere housewife]

Gail, I think that shaping our responses by the law rather than grace is always coming from 'a place of fear' -- but yes I think this is something that has had meaning drop out over generations and become purely about fear. For instance in a certain generation a response against 'beards' may have had some meaning (I'm not saying it was a right response, but that at least it was rooted in a cultural reality): but it becomes a standard of holiness when the parents pass on to the children along with the rest of the moral law, while the only thing that gave it any meaning drops out of the culture: in the absence of meaning either from Scripture or from the culture, all these laws are enshrined and kept merely out of a fear that if we grow beards we are letting worldliness rush in like a flood (If the father sits in this chair, the child will sit one chair closer to the world, etc). Of course, the laws are all originally a response to where the world is at the moment to begin with, so worldliness has rushed in like a flood from the git go: it's not 'unworldly' to determine where to 'sit' by the position of the world rather than standing on the word of God and calling the culture to change it's position.

 

[Matthew1034]

They, the rules and those who enfore them, bind men's consciences and bring these people, if they are Christians, out from the yoke of Christ and put them in bondage to the law again. This is evil and cannot be called good even if it appears to be good. This kind of christianity is thoroughly antichrist and ought to be rejected completely. Why should we defend someone or a group of people who bring shame on the name of our Savior?

This is a lie, Matthew. No true believer in Christ is "antichrist." You don't know who is saved and who isn't. As messed up as their theology is, at the end of the day the people at PCC (supposedly) put their trust in Christ. They believe in salvation by faith in Christ. I grew up in a church like that among people like that. They don't need the kind of hate speech that you're putting out on the internet.

The leaders of groups like these are not confused; they have rejected the Gospel.

You don't know that. These people do not deny any cardinal Christian doctrine. The most confused Arminian can be saved. Why not pray for these people, Matthew? You may share an eternity with many of them. God will not let all their stupid ideas keep them from heaven. Many of them are His children, and He will persevere them in spite of their weakness, frailty, and failings. You crossed a line when you passed judgment on their standing in grace. You need to repent of your sin and let God change your heart.

Please take care to notice that I did not call the believer an antichrist, but used it to describe the christianity that the institution and institutions like it follow. Please read the Luther quote I added to this post you quoted, and reconsider if we should assume they are Christians just because they profess Christ. Also, read the <ADDED> section in the same post; I explained why those who are trusting in the law for spiritual growth are also trusting in the law for salvation. There is no evidence, apart from their mouths, that PCC (and institutions like them; not every single person there but those who create and enforce their man-made laws) proclaims faith in Christ alone saves. In light of their works, their words are nullified. If they believed in salvation by faith alone, their lives would show it. James teaches that man is justified by faith in the sight of God, but justified by works in the sight of men. God forbid we make the profession of faith evidence to US of regeneration.

The most confused Arminian can be saved, but someone who is trusting in their own righteousness to save them cannot be saved. Jesus did not come to save the righteous, but sinners. There is a large, large chasm between a confused Arminian and a bold one; a Christian struggling with sin and a Pharisee. My judgment of their beliefs is not unrighteous, and the line you've imagined I did not cross, as I did not judge anyone's standing in grace. I have judged their doctrine, their works, those who have fabricated them and those who follow them; but only God can judge the individuals who are guilty of each of those. I have not judged their type of faith and practice in a way I myself would not want to be judged. If a Christian finds fault with my doctrine or my works, I would hope he would tell me so that I could be corrected. But the friend who passively lets another friend perish is no friend at all.

And I praise God for his faithfulness and forbearance despite our constant misunderstandings and misapplications of his Word. I am thankful that he preserves us despite our sins. And I do not love PCC and its people any less because of any of this. Aren't the wounds of a friend faithful? But the kisses of an enemy are deceitful. I am filled with both grief and happiness for the state of the Church and pray for her always; and I hope nobody reading this thinks of me as someone who wishes to see groups of Christians like PCC perish. I think that would be an unrighteous judgment of my heart.

"I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand, I can do no other, so help me God. Amen."

 

[YXU]

Many rules are reasonable and necessary. Others are just ridiculous.

I would go even further and say that many rules are necessary, many are reasonable, many are ridiculous, but some are sinful. Rules that promote backstabbing and gossip (turning people in without being able to talk to the person first), rules that keep you from being a part of a local assembly of believers, and rules that promote law over grace, etc. are sinful rules that ought to be warned against.

If a para-church organization like a school mandates students to worship at school other than go to their church, it is sinful. And it is also doubted whether the para-church organization leaders themselves ever go to church.

 

[AThornquist]

That song was pretty funky. It's too catchy; I've been singing it all day....

"Will you say yes, or no?...

 

[Auntie Gramma]

I'm a bit sad with this thread. Not exactly the way to make an entrance to a BB, I know. Sorry. I don't want to come here as to judge.

Let me just share a bit of my background, perhaps? I was raised in the roman catholic tradition -- salvation by works, all that sort of thing. Even as a child, though, I had a deep love for GOD and somehow (the Holy Spirit, perhaps?) knew there was more than the 'good nuns' were teaching us.

After I began having my children the LORD graciously saved me and I, with great trepidation, entered a Baptist church. It was very scary to someone who had been reared on catholic doctrine. A sure way to eternal damnation, dontcha know? Any fool knew the only way to Heaven was through Rome!

I spent almost twenty years in dispensationalism. Know what bothered me right up front about that?? Being told, at least in that first church that I went to, that Christ came to earth to gather the Jewish people, but they rejected Him. The Crucifixion and all it's implications were, in effect, Plan B. Holy cow! Really? GOD? The Creator of the Universe? He was unable to carry out His plan? WOW! That just didn't make any sense to me. (Again, I'm sure the Holy Spirit was working in my heart, soul, mind, body, every fibre of my being).

I read my Bible and saw verses that talked about the elect being chosen since before the foundation of the earth (that must be that 'heretic' Calvin that the nuns tried to warn us about, right?). If the Crucifixion is, as my dispensationalist pastor told me, Plan B -- how would you explain 1 Peter 1:18-20? Just reading through the Gospel of John, there are many references to being chosen by GOD. Is it all that easy? Or is it GOD's amazing grace that comes in to play here? I suspect, no, I believe with every fibre of my being that it is indeed the amazing, awesome, wonderful, blessed grace of my GOD that has brought me to whatever knowledge I have of Him. And for this, I kneel before Him in thanksgiving forever.

I did finally make it into a Reformed Church. I love the reformed and covenant theology I have been privileged to hear from the pulpit. Sometimes though? Sometimes I think we all get just a wee bit cocky about it all. I've heard my elders make jokes about Rome -- especially when they know we have catholics visiting. Not good. Not good at all. It's not like this storehouse of knowledge is something we're responsible for, it's like our salvation, it's all of grace... everything, every moment, every breath. Thank you LORD, for all you've given to me.

PS... I'm really not an old curmudgeon -- Honest. Just wanted to give credit to GOD.