Free Will Song

[CharlieJ]

I'm slightly disturbed at this thread. Posting the song for consideration is certainly appropriate, but posting it with a list of "ridiculous" rules makes it seem like the OP just wanted to slap the school in the face.

I went to BJU, the school PCC is modeled after. I think both schools have excessive rules. However, neither school would argue that all their rules are straight from the Bible, or that your church and home should operate by them. Is it really ridiculous and sinful to have a curfew? Are they religious wackos because they prohibit appliances which could potentially cause fire?

At what point do those of us on the outside become legalists for nitpicking every one of their rules? At what point during our superior laughter have we become the self-righteous ones? Really, as the video graphically portrays, their list of rules is one of the least of their problems.

 

[Prufrock]

Thank you for the reminder to charity, Charlie.

 

[Ex Nihilo]

I went to BJU, the school PCC is modeled after. I think both schools have excessive rules. However, neither school would argue that all their rules are straight from the Bible, or that your church and home should operate by them. Is it really ridiculous and sinful to have a curfew? Are they religious wackos because they prohibit appliances which could potentially cause fire?

It is difficult to draw the line between reasonable rules that create a more wholesome environment and rules that are intended to create righteousness. My Baptist college regulated opposite-sex visits in dorms, banned alcohol on campus, and prohibited using the internet to look up inappropriate materials, and I thought all of that was reasonable.

 

[Knoxienne]

I went to BJU, the school PCC is modeled after. I think both schools have excessive rules. However, neither school would argue that all their rules are straight from the Bible, or that your church and home should operate by them. Is it really ridiculous and sinful to have a curfew? Are they religious wackos because they prohibit appliances which could potentially cause fire?

It is difficult to draw the line between reasonable rules that create a more wholesome environment and rules that are intended to create righteousness. My Baptist college regulated opposite-sex visits in dorms, banned alcohol on campus, and prohibited using the internet to look up inappropriate materials, and I thought all of that was reasonable.

I agree. (Out of Thank Yous again) Many rules are reasonable and necessary. Others are just ridiculous.

 

[a mere housewife]

I'm slightly disturbed at this thread. Posting the song for consideration is certainly appropriate, but posting it with a list of "ridiculous" rules makes it seem like the OP just wanted to slap the school in the face.

I went to BJU, the school PCC is modeled after. I think both schools have excessive rules. However, neither school would argue that all their rules are straight from the Bible, or that your church and home should operate by them. Is it really ridiculous and sinful to have a curfew? Are they religious wackos because they prohibit appliances which could potentially cause fire?

At what point do those of us on the outside become legalists for nitpicking every one of their rules? At what point during our superior laughter have we become the self-righteous ones? Really, as the video graphically portrays, their list of rules is one of the least of their problems.

These are good points; and you are right about self righteousness and charity.

I think the purpose though served by these threads is not simply an uncharitable or self righteous one. For instance, PCC does give an impression that their rules are righteous: they do teach students that they should be following them in the home, and we had to live by them in our home (it's in the contract) when my dad sold their books to homeschoolers, though we lived states away. This is something that ought to be opposed. I agree that the 'rules' are only a symptom of the problem; but they are a symptom, and a rather ridiculous one, and sometimes laughter is an appropriate response to the ridiculous? The terribly unfunny part is that these places are training ministers.

 

[Kim G]

Many rules are reasonable and necessary. Others are just ridiculous.

I would go even further and say that many rules are necessary, many are reasonable, many are ridiculous, but some are sinful. Rules that promote backstabbing and gossip (turning people in without being able to talk to the person first), rules that keep you from being a part of a local assembly of believers, and rules that promote law over grace, etc. are sinful rules that ought to be warned against.

 

[a mere housewife]

Many rules are reasonable and necessary. Others are just ridiculous.

I would go even further and say that many rules are necessary, many are reasonable, many are ridiculous, but some are sinful. Rules that promote backstabbing and gossip (turning people in without being able to talk to the person first), rules that keep you from being a part of a local assembly of believers, and rules that promote law over grace, etc. are sinful rules that ought to be warned against.

Yes.

 

[Knoxienne]

Many rules are reasonable and necessary. Others are just ridiculous.

I would go even further and say that many rules are necessary, many are reasonable, many are ridiculous, but some are sinful. Rules that promote backstabbing and gossip (turning people in without being able to talk to the person first), rules that keep you from being a part of a local assembly of believers, and rules that promote law over grace, etc. are sinful rules that ought to be warned against.

Amen.

 

[Marrow Man]

Apparently is not okay for a woman to be in an elevator with a man, but it is totally okay for her to speak at a large worship gathering. . .

Funny how made-up rules do not just supplement God's rules; they actually replace them.

Absolutely! I thought exactly the same thing. She was teaching doctrine during a chapel service.

I saw this video a couple of years ago. As I watched it again, I couldn't help but be reminded of this song:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENciJ2ZOQCM]YouTube - Ken Barber - Jack Daniels Met John 3:16[/ame]

 

[ManleyBeasley]

I can't believe this song. I am dumbfounded.

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

And she really meant that we're not supposed to believe Romans 9? Insanity.

No big surprise, really. They obviously don't understand Romans 2, 3, or 14 either.

-----Added 2/20/2009 at 02:38:30 EST-----

And I have a question, in all seriousness: are students at PCC and BJU (and similar institutions) forbidden from reading certain passages in the Bible? I'm thinking specifically of the Song of Solomon, Habakkuk, Proverbs 5-7, and numerous passages in the Pentateuch dealing frankly with sexuality...

 

[David Heesen]

Whippoorwill Song

This "Free Will Song" was written by Al Smith (of Singspiration fame) and is known as the "Whippoorwill Song." I don't know if that's the actual title, but of course he would never have named it "Free Will Song."

 

[Knoxienne]

And she really meant that we're not supposed to believe Romans 9? Insanity.

No big surprise, really. They obviously don't understand Romans 2, 3, or 14 either.

-----Added 2/20/2009 at 02:38:30 EST-----

And I have a question, in all seriousness: are students at PCC and BJU (and similar institutions) forbidden from reading certain passages in the Bible? I'm thinking specifically of the Song of Solomon, Habakkuk, Proverbs 5-7, and numerous passages in the Pentateuch dealing frankly with sexuality...

It's the same in the Amish community. I read a Amish (now English) woman's autobiography and she said the elders also discourage people from reading "too much" of the Bible and studying theology "too much" even if that person's an elder.

 

[Richard King]

Owwwwww my ears MY EARS!

 

[a mere housewife]

I've never heard anyone discourage the Bible from being read at PCC, BJ, or the other college I attended.

Wow, Al Smith. My grandfather sold hymnals for him.

 

[Kim G]

I've never heard anyone discourage the Bible from being read at PCC, BJ, or the other college I attended.

That's true. We were always encouraged to read the Bible. Everyone has their inconsistencies, even universities.

 

[dbroyles]

In that song, Jack Daniels meeting John 3:16 reminds me of the Oliver B. Greene booklet published decades ago against the consumption of alcohol. The cover depicted an anthropomorphic, human-sized bottle of booze standing triumphantly over a drunk man, the bottle exclaiming, "I did that!" It was an ugly drawing, but it beautifully illustrated modern day gnosticism.

 

[Augusta]

The saddest thing to me is that this kind of legalistic behavior puts true Christian piety in a bad light. We are free from the curse of the law but that doesn't mean we don't keep it. If you do not truly love the law because Christ does and because it is a reflection of his holiness, and if that is not what causes you to strive to keep it, then you are not acting from faith.

If you keep the law as a list to check off and not because it is written on your heart and you therefore love it, then you are a pharisee.

You can have two people one from this school who is following all these rules, and a 17th century Puritan who has the law written on their hearts doing the same things, but one is a Pharisee and one is a Christian. It is not the rules per se, but the motivation behind keeping them.

 

[Matthew1034]

Note: I've adjusted the language of this post to make my position clearer. That which I have added or changed either has <ADDED> tags or is set in bold. I do not believe every student there, or every teacher, is guilty of what I am saying. And I did not post this video in the OP or this response to Charlie to, in any way, mock PCC or single them out. My position is that I reject the type of christianity that they teach, and any christianity that makes obedience to man-made laws and regulations the basis of spiritual growth or salvation. And please read Luther's quote knowing it has played a large part in my understanding of how I ought to approach exposing error.

Also, as a confession, I originally posted the song and rules for the sake of humor (not out of self-righteous superiority, but to put light on the connection between their theology and practice), but, upon reading more into the rules and reading some of the posted replies, that connection became clearer and overnight it has completely changed my view of Arminian theology and Phariseeism and I was led to this response. And I am sorry, out of a human's pitiful heart redeemed by God's unfailing grace and filled with His Love, to any who have taken my words personally; it is not, nor was, my intention to single anyone out, let alone the institution, to bring on an ungodly shame or guilt. In the same way, I do expect everyone to read my words as I intended them, in the context of the faith and practice of the institution, institutions like them, and those who willingly adhere to their Christless commands.

I'm slightly disturbed at this thread. Posting the song for consideration is certainly appropriate, but posting it with a list of "ridiculous" rules makes it seem like the OP just wanted to slap the school in the face.

I went to BJU, the school PCC is modeled after. I think both schools have excessive rules. However, neither school would argue that all their rules are straight from the Bible, or that your church and home should operate by them. Is it really ridiculous and sinful to have a curfew? Are they religious wackos because they prohibit appliances which could potentially cause fire?

At what point do those of us on the outside become legalists for nitpicking every one of their rules? At what point during our superior laughter have we become the self-righteous ones? Really, as the video graphically portrays, their list of rules is one of the least of their problems.

The point of posting the rules along with the video was to bring their false teaching to light; not only their doctrine, but their practice. Their legalism IS as deceptive and damning as their theology, its not the "least of their problems." The fruit on their trees are rotten. If the christianity they teach is all their students know about God, salvation, and Christian living, then they are going into the ministry as false shepherds. <added>I do not believe that every person there believes these things and is ignorant of Christian liberty and the Gospel of grace, but I do believe those who believe (ie trust, "pisteuo") that living by their standards is a means of spiritual growth, or even salvation (Arminianism), have a heart of stone on which are engraved man's laws as well as God's. These are those who are deceived and being deceived. This is not judging men's hearts; if obedience to the law is the measure of spiritual growth, then it is also what they are trusting in for salvation. This is what Galatians 32,3,15, 25, 27) and 49,21,31) and Colossians 2:20-23 are about. The law does not give life, faith does; God's laws or man's laws CANNOT produce spiritual growth for it is what condemns a man before God. (Romans 3:19,20 Hebrews 7:19) This is the Gospel, we are saved from the ministration of death and its demands AND we are brought into a life that loves, follows, and approaches God FROM FAITH TO FAITH. God not only saves us from hell, but from corruption; he not only brings us out of bondage to sin, but leads us in that liberty of the Spirit. I don't want to preach about this, and shouldn't have to. Faith is the mechanism of the Christian life; this is the aroma of Christ to those around us. These who are trying to become righteous, either in Christian maturity or salvation, by following the law and man-made laws should not be considered Christians just because they profess Christ.</added>

If I profess with the loudest voice and clearest exposition every portion of the Word of God except precisely that little point which the world and the devil are at that moment attacking, I am not confessing Christ, however boldly I may be professing Him. Where the battle rages there the loyalty of the soldier is proved; and to be steady on all the battle front besides, is mere flight and disgrace if he flinches at that point.

(Luther's Works. Weimar Edition. Briefwechsel [Correspondence], vol. 3, pp. 81f.)

This is so horrifying, in the saddest sense of the word, to a Christian who knows the grace of God and how sincerely God desires justice and truthfulness in the inmost parts. This is not to be self-righteous or have a sense of superiority. Sure someone can watch the video, read the rules, and just find it funny and thats that, or someone can watch it and read the rules and say "i'm glad i'm not like that.." or we can watch it and read the rules and say "that's not Christianity."

They (those who create and enforce their man-made laws, NOT every student or person there) measure a person's spiritual growth according to how well they (every student) obey their man-made laws. So, in the eyes of the school, at the end of a 4-year stay, the person who has 0 demerits is more righteous and spiritually mature than someone with 100, when in reality the person with 0 demerits could be a white-washed tomb and the person with 100 could be a believer going through sanctification.

They, the rules and those who enforce them, bind men's consciences and bring these people, if they are Christians, out from the yoke of Christ and put them in bondage to the law again. This is evil and cannot be called good even if it appears to be good. This kind of christianity is thoroughly antichrist and ought to be rejected completely. Why should we defend someone or a group of people (those who create and enforce their man-made laws, NOT every student) who bring shame on the name of our Savior?

Its interesting to me how everytime I point out false teaching in the church on this board, someone thinks its rooted in self-righteousness. I just hate evil and the appearance of evil and the shame it brings to Christ when it is professing Christians doing the evil. I don't take pleasure in exposing error, for the error itself breaks my heart. It doesn't make me proud that I'm right, it makes me sorrowful that they're wrong because they don't know the grace and love of God and are working as hard as they possibly can to get it. These are holy affections and the Holy Spirit Himself reveals these things to us. Whatever makes manifest is light.

The leaders (those who create and enfore their man-made laws, NOT every student) of groups like these are not confused; they have rejected the Gospel. Its not a game where we are supposed to try to make sure nobody in modern christianity is offended, thus trying to balance everyone (who professes Christ) and their heretical beliefs. The Arminian theology is not their biggest problem, their Phariseeism is because that's what they (those who create and enforce their man-made laws, NOT every student) are trusting in to make them righteous.

Those who know the truth of the Gospel and reject it end up like these people (those who create and enforce man-made laws and make them the basis of Christian growth and/or salvation, NOT every student). They (those who create and enforce their man-made laws, NOT every student) end up worse than before they knew the truth, like Peter says. (While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption) They die because they have no knowledge or understanding; they (every student)are being led astray by false teachers (those who create and enforce their man-made laws, NOT every student)! There really is a correlation in that those who reject the teachings of the grace of God in the Gospel end up confused and worse than when they started.

The post below is a good example; someone who does not accept sovereign election after awhile ends up saying that election is man electing God to be his savior, and that the reformed doctrine of election is a system of works. That's utterly blasphemous. And herein lies the problem: will the Holy Spirit lead a man to believe that election is a work of man and that the sovereign election of God is a system of works to get to heaven? Likewise, will the Holy Spirit lead an entire Christian college (its leaders and visionaries, those who create and enforce their man-made laws) to make up a bunch of man-made rules and make obedience to them the basis and measure of Christian growth? That's NOT Christianity.

http://www.puritanboard.com/f15/arminians-elect-god-43474/

Its not just an accident or an isolated occurance at PCC that hardcore Arminians are Pharisees (those who create and enforce their man-made law, NOT every student).

And instead of taking a stand against those who teach a legalistic gospel or a works-based gospel, we play that game where we try to balance everyone's beliefs just because they profess Christ. After all, "we aren't supposed to judge anyone or else we'll be judged!" The JWs profess Christ but their teaching is false and we reject them. So why don't we reject those Pharisaical groups and churches that reject the Gospel? Just because they say Christ is their Savior? Its complete garbage, from their faith to their practice its false and deceptive. Paul called his Phariseeism DUNG. But we may as well be one of them if we are going to tolerate their teaching; because in that tolerance we make no distinction to the outside world that we are different.

Again, read Luther's words and consider the time in which he spoke them and how they ought to be relevant now, in a day when the Gospel is being compromised for the sake of a Christian unity that is false.

If I profess with the loudest voice and clearest exposition every portion of the Word of God except precisely that little point which the world and the devil are at that moment attacking, I am not confessing Christ, however boldly I may be professing Him. Where the battle rages there the loyalty of the soldier is proved; and to be steady on all the battle front besides, is mere flight and disgrace if he flinches at that point.

(Luther's Works. Weimar Edition. Briefwechsel [Correspondence], vol. 3, pp. 81f.)

 

[LadyFlynt]

Seen the video before and I only had to read #1 and "FL" to know which school you were referring to. Yep, grew up fundy.

 

[Craig]

I don't know what was worse...the song, or the praise of the will worship afterward.

I feel dirty, I think I'm going to go eat a banana.

 

[LadyFlynt]

I don't know what was worse...the song, or the praise of the will worship afterward.

I feel dirty, I think I'm going to go eat a banana.

Just cut it up first! Don't want to give anyone worldly ideas!

I have patterns to kulottes...they are fun if you make them out of funky fabric I know some teens that love them.

 

[kalawine]

Apparently is not okay for a woman to be in an elevator with a man, but it is totally okay for her to speak at a large worship gathering. . .

Funny how made-up rules do not just supplement God's rules; they actually replace them.

Absolutely! I thought exactly the same thing. She was teaching doctrine during a chapel service.

I saw this video a couple of years ago. As I watched it again, I couldn't help but be reminded of this song:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENciJ2ZOQCM]YouTube - Ken Barber - Jack Daniels Met John 3:16[/ame]

So... God saved him from Jack Daniels. Did he save hime from hell also?

 

[OPC'n]

wow! that list was used by the church I was raised in!!!! Whoa!!! Bad memories!!!!! And that song!!

 

[CharlieJ]

They, the rules and those who enfore them, bind men's consciences and bring these people, if they are Christians, out from the yoke of Christ and put them in bondage to the law again. This is evil and cannot be called good even if it appears to be good. This kind of christianity is thoroughly antichrist and ought to be rejected completely. Why should we defend someone or a group of people who bring shame on the name of our Savior?

This is a lie, Matthew. No true believer in Christ is "antichrist." You don't know who is saved and who isn't. As messed up as their theology is, at the end of the day the people at PCC (supposedly) put their trust in Christ. They believe in salvation by faith in Christ. I grew up in a church like that among people like that. They don't need the kind of hate speech that you're putting out on the internet.

The leaders of groups like these are not confused; they have rejected the Gospel.

You don't know that. These people do not deny any cardinal Christian doctrine. The most confused Arminian can be saved. Why not pray for these people, Matthew? You may share an eternity with many of them. God will not let all their stupid ideas keep them from heaven. Many of them are His children, and He will persevere them in spite of their weakness, frailty, and failings. You crossed a line when you passed judgment on their standing in grace. You need to repent of your sin and let God change your heart.

 

[kvanlaan]

Pray for them, sure. They are in error, but profess Christ, so OK. BUT we must be uncompromising and not waffle on how serious an error this is - listen to some Paul Washer for more on this sort of thing. We too often glaze over heresy in the church for the sake of something or other and then are shocked and surprised when "Americanity" is what the bulk of 'Christians' worship.

I would go to them with the Gospel, not with a repair kit for split hairs - they are missing the point entirely.

 

[py3ak]

[Moderator]Obviously this is an emotional topic: many people have scars; many people have loved ones who seem evidently to have the fruit of the Spirit and yet are in these circles. So everybody, please consider the complexity of the situation and try to speak with as much gentleness and moderation towards people as can be had with the thorough rejection of error, considering ourselves, lest we also be tempted.[/Moderator]

 

[Marrow Man]

So... God saved him from Jack Daniels. Did he save hime from hell also?

I sincerely hope so.

I was flipping through the channels one day when we lived in Greenville, SC, and I saw this song being sung on a local cable channel. The sad thing is that it (and the one in the OP) almost sounds like a parody it's so bad.

I'm sure I sang some pretty dumb stuff in my early Christian days, though. I should probably be dropping those stones about now...

 

[Marno]

Horrible, absolutely horrible.

 

[calgal]

Interesting and really really sad for the students. The words and the behaviors are so inconsistent (and the song is awful). Is the school accredited or is the career path...limited if you will.

I hate to compare these folks to the LDS but there are some similarities. Both groups idolize laws but the LDS openly worship false gods. BYU has similar rules but do allow women to wear pants (note that bleachers + skirts = bad idea) and show edited movies on campus. Note the BYU sports teams do dress for the sport (there is a magic garment exemption for sporting events....) BYU Cheer BYU also has the same sort of "snitchin'" laws and BYU students learn what they need to hide from roommates, college officials and their bishops very early on. Note I have several acquaintances who went to school at "the Y" who are raging alcoholics: they never learned that you can drink responsibly.