ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
I wasn't sure where to put this. Just looking for thoughts.
God doesn't send anyone to Hell
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heartoflesh
Puritan Board Junior
I wouldn't go as far as to say people have to "fight their way" to hell. It's generally a broad and easy way to go, if I'm not mistaken. All the same, I agree with the gist of his premise here--that our choosing hell is our responsibility.
BobVigneault
Bawberator
[Edited on 3-24-2005 by maxdetail]
BobVigneault
Bawberator
Well, it's one of those conundrums like perseverance vs. preservation, God's sovereignty vs. man's responsibiltiy. We are speaking of the same issue but from two vantage points, one from God's and one from man's. From God's point of view he sentences the reprobate to hell, from man's point of view, we willfully reject Christ, trample the word and rebel against our creator and continue our uninterrupted path to hell. Our rebellion is the ordained means by which God's holy justice is manifested to the angels and to the world. Our election is the means by which God demonstrates his love and mercy.
I have no problem with Stanley's description given he is writing from the vantage point of the worldling.
[Edited on 3-24-2005 by maxdetail]
I have no problem with Stanley's description given he is writing from the vantage point of the worldling.
[Edited on 3-24-2005 by maxdetail]
Well said Max.
As an aside, I heard the early in Johnathan Edwards life he espoused some sort of 3 tier belief. Election, Choice, and reprobation. Is this correct? I am getting this second hand and have not found where he said this.
I guess it means their are some God elects, Some that He gives a choice to and some He reprobates.
Joseph
heartoflesh
Puritan Board Junior
Right. To accept both as true is to be a compatiblist.
John 5:39-40
"You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
John 6:44
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day"
BobVigneault
Bawberator
I've never heard that Joseph. I'd be surprised if Edwards held to a view like that, but my ignorance that I parade here is just the tip of the iceberg. 
On a somewhat related note, Pipe gave a marvelous, marvelous message a couple weeks ago on the wrath of God and it's presents effects on the world. I'm recommending it.
http://www.biblicalpreaching.info/sermons.php?preacher_search=2&customquery=search#
The Present Effects of Trembling at the Wrath of God
On a somewhat related note, Pipe gave a marvelous, marvelous message a couple weeks ago on the wrath of God and it's presents effects on the world. I'm recommending it.
http://www.biblicalpreaching.info/sermons.php?preacher_search=2&customquery=search#
The Present Effects of Trembling at the Wrath of God
BobVigneault
Bawberator
"Right. To accept both as true is to be a compatiblist. "
Hey, you watch your phraseology! I have never eaten human flesh in my life nor do I want to. Yuck!
Hey, you watch your phraseology! I have never eaten human flesh in my life nor do I want to. Yuck!
http://members.aol.com/Graceordained/twisse.html
This is excellent. Twisse is superb here!!!!!!!!!!!
This is excellent. Twisse is superb here!!!!!!!!!!!
heartoflesh
Puritan Board Junior
Sorry, I know that word must be spelled some other way...
[Edited on 3-24-2005 by Rick Larson]
BobVigneault
Bawberator
I was just teasing Rick :bigsmile:
Compatibilism is the thesis that free will is compatible with determinism.
Cannibilism is... well, you know.
:bigsmile:
Compatibilism is the thesis that free will is compatible with determinism.
Cannibilism is... well, you know.
:bigsmile:
Poimen
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I am more comfortable with Girardeau's explanation:
"œBut while it is true that God is not bound to give to all who hear the gospel a disposition to accept its invitations, it is also true that he debars no man from availing himself of them and receiving salvation through Christ. So far as he is concerned, all legal obstacles have been removed which barred the access of sinners to his pardoning mercy. The road has been opened to his favor, by means of the finished work of an atoning Savior. All who will to come may come. No one who comes is thrust back. The only barriers between sinners and salvation are those which are raised by themselves. God erects none. His decree, executed by his efficacious grace, constrains some tom come; but his decree prevents none from coming. He decrees to condemn men from not coming, not to debar them from coming. He is therfore (sic.) sincere in opening the door of mercy to all who please to enter it."
From Calvinism and Evangelical Arminianism
[Edited on 3-24-2005 by poimen]
"œBut while it is true that God is not bound to give to all who hear the gospel a disposition to accept its invitations, it is also true that he debars no man from availing himself of them and receiving salvation through Christ. So far as he is concerned, all legal obstacles have been removed which barred the access of sinners to his pardoning mercy. The road has been opened to his favor, by means of the finished work of an atoning Savior. All who will to come may come. No one who comes is thrust back. The only barriers between sinners and salvation are those which are raised by themselves. God erects none. His decree, executed by his efficacious grace, constrains some tom come; but his decree prevents none from coming. He decrees to condemn men from not coming, not to debar them from coming. He is therfore (sic.) sincere in opening the door of mercy to all who please to enter it."
From Calvinism and Evangelical Arminianism
[Edited on 3-24-2005 by poimen]
BobVigneault
Bawberator
That's pretty good but it doesn't mention the choice that was made by Adam that has condemned all of us to a just condemnation.
edwardian289
Inactive User
As an aside, I heard the early in Johnathan Edwards life he espoused some sort of 3 tier belief. Election, Choice, and reprobation. Is this correct? I am getting this second hand and have not found where he said this.
I guess it means their are some God elects, Some that He gives a choice to and some He reprobates.
Joseph [/quote]
I know that early in JE's life he struggled much with the sovereignty of God in the salvation of man. However, I have not heard nor read that he had that belief.
I guess it means their are some God elects, Some that He gives a choice to and some He reprobates.
Joseph [/quote]
I know that early in JE's life he struggled much with the sovereignty of God in the salvation of man. However, I have not heard nor read that he had that belief.
In response to the original post,
I would have to say that on the face of it, the statement "God does not send people to hell" is false. We may want to distinguish between what God does and what man does in a man's ending up there, but to say that God does not put people in hell is a straightforward denial of the penal aspect of divine judgment. Hell is not simply consequence but desert. One earns his place there.
Let us think of a human court. It is certainly true to say that, in some sense the guilty and convicted felon has put himself into prison. Now society may have warned, threatened and cajoled the criminal in a great attempt to dissuade him from his course. But then to suggest that the court of justice simply announced to the world that Joe Felon had thrown himself in prison, or fastened himself to the stocks, or strapped himself to the electric chair, is nonsense. Mr Stanley (above) is simply writing the punishment of hell out of the picture in order to highlight the humanistic "choice" of the individual in fixing his own eternal destiny.
Edwards may well have distinguished (again, note the word) between the issues of election, choice, and reprobation, but not in the sense that different people fall into these three categories. In the matter of election, out of ALL MEN subject to his discrimination, God chooses some to eternal life and does not choose others. In the matter of choice, ALL MEN make a choice whether to obey God's command or disobey (I'm not speaking here about how or why they choose, but the fact of their free choice). In the matter of reprobation, out of ALL GUILTY MEN, those whom God sovereignly passes by in the matter of election--he ordains "them to dishonor and wrath, for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice" (WCF3.7). Edwards famous sermon "Sinners in the Hands..." is unfathomable outside of his high Calvinism. Certainly we could scarcely imagine Mr. Stanley preaching such a sermon.
I would have to say that on the face of it, the statement "God does not send people to hell" is false. We may want to distinguish between what God does and what man does in a man's ending up there, but to say that God does not put people in hell is a straightforward denial of the penal aspect of divine judgment. Hell is not simply consequence but desert. One earns his place there.
Let us think of a human court. It is certainly true to say that, in some sense the guilty and convicted felon has put himself into prison. Now society may have warned, threatened and cajoled the criminal in a great attempt to dissuade him from his course. But then to suggest that the court of justice simply announced to the world that Joe Felon had thrown himself in prison, or fastened himself to the stocks, or strapped himself to the electric chair, is nonsense. Mr Stanley (above) is simply writing the punishment of hell out of the picture in order to highlight the humanistic "choice" of the individual in fixing his own eternal destiny.
Edwards may well have distinguished (again, note the word) between the issues of election, choice, and reprobation, but not in the sense that different people fall into these three categories. In the matter of election, out of ALL MEN subject to his discrimination, God chooses some to eternal life and does not choose others. In the matter of choice, ALL MEN make a choice whether to obey God's command or disobey (I'm not speaking here about how or why they choose, but the fact of their free choice). In the matter of reprobation, out of ALL GUILTY MEN, those whom God sovereignly passes by in the matter of election--he ordains "them to dishonor and wrath, for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice" (WCF3.7). Edwards famous sermon "Sinners in the Hands..." is unfathomable outside of his high Calvinism. Certainly we could scarcely imagine Mr. Stanley preaching such a sermon.
Solo Christo
Puritan Board Freshman
Charles Stanley is not a novice at making unfortunate comments like this. His book Eternal Security is one of the most disappointing ever on the subject. Not only does he misrepresent the Bible in what is warned about hell, but he actually tries to present "weeping and gnashing of teeth" as a part of heaven. Heresy has rarely treaded such disturbing territory.
cupotea
Puritan Board Junior
I've been reading "Bondage of the Will" by Martin Luther lately, and this thread reminded me of it.
I'm in a hurry, but I thought this line rings true:
"Those that have not yet experienced the work of the law, who do not recognize their sin and have no sense of death, scorn the mercy promised by that word."
I'm in a hurry, but I thought this line rings true:
"Those that have not yet experienced the work of the law, who do not recognize their sin and have no sense of death, scorn the mercy promised by that word."
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