He will come to judge the living and the dead...

[kvanlaan]

So here it is - I couldn't answer this question from my son. If we go to either heaven or hell when we die, then why is Christ going to judge us later, too? Is there a second judgment? Is the first one a pass/fail and the second a more detailed discussion, like a parent/teacher interview?

 

[earl40]

The final judgment is indeed in the future. Remember we do not get raised from the dead physically till Jesus returns to a renewed heaven and earth. So in my mind there will be a judgment of works done in the body for rewards or lack thereof. The damned will also be judge for the works done in the body, and though their destination is not determined by those works their number of stripes or degree of punishment, will be given then and for eternity. The destination is based on if one written in The Lambs book of life or lack thereof, as I have read that "reprobation like election is not based on works".

 

[TimV]

So in my mind there will be a judgment of works done in the body for rewards or lack thereof.

I wonder about that because if Christ's righteousness is truly given to believers, anything we add can't really mean anything in comparison. So, two men have Christ's righteousness. One helped an old lady across the street and the other walked by without helping. I can see a case made for reward here on earth, but things we do just can't compare with Christ's righteousness.

Kevin, probably an easy way out, but at death doesn't the soul leave the constraints of time? So is there really any gap? Just wondering.

 

[earl40]

So in my mind there will be a judgment of works done in the body for rewards or lack thereof.

I wonder about that because if Christ's righteousness is truly given to believers, anything we add can't really mean anything in comparison. So, two men have Christ's righteousness. One helped an old lady across the street and the other walked by without helping.

I have seen this repeatably in the protestant mindset in that many think that the works are not "meritorious". I will grant our entrance or justification into heaven is based solely on Jesus. Our rewards in heaven are based on what we do, by His grace, while in our body before we die. Now does this reward for helping a lady across the street compare to what Jesus did....well are we to say that doing good works by His grace are nothing? I say no because they (works) will be judged to see if they are gold, silver, or stubble. Gold is good.

 

[TimV]

Earl then let me ask you if the thief on the cross will be granted many less rewards than Calvin, keeping in mind both have the merits of Christ. Just food for thought.

 

[earl40]

Earl then let me ask you if the thief on the cross will be granted many less rewards than Calvin, keeping in mind both have the merits of Christ. Just food for thought.

In my most humble opinion the thief will have less reward in heaven, which of course does not mean he is any less a believer or child of God than you or I. How blessed are those that live a long fruitful life in Jesus. I look forward to laying all my crowns or rewards at the feet of Jesus knowing it is by His grace we can do any real good.

 

[Peairtach]

God's judgment is according to righteousness. Re the thief and Calvin, God will take into account the fact that Calvin was more gifted than the thief in assigning rewards.

Louis Berkhof

P.542: Scripture clearly teaches that the good works of believers are not meritorious in the proper sense of the word. We should bear in mind, however, that the word "merit" is employed in a twofold sense, the one strict and proper, and the other loose. Strictly speaking a meritorious work is one to which, on account of its intrinsic value and dignity, the reward is justly due from commutative justice. Loosely speaking, however, a work that is deserving of approval and to which a reward is somehow attached (by promise, agreement, or otherwise) is also sometimes called meritorious. Such works are praiseworthy and are rewarded by God. But however this may be, they are surely not meritorious in the stricty sense of the word. They do not, by their own intrinsic moral value, make God a debtor to him who performs them. In strict justice the good works of believers merit nothing.

Here's a thread on different types of merit explained very clearly by Rev. Lane Keister. The good works of believers are rewarded because God wants to reward them, by a kind of pactum merit:
http://www.puritanboard.com/f31/condign-congruent-pactum-merit-66235/

Earl

as I have read that "reprobation like election is not based on works".

Preterition - the leaving of some out from election - is by God's sovereign and mysterious choice. Reprobation is a result of the individual's own responsible sinfulness and is perfectly just.

Regarding Heavenly rewards since there is no sin in Heaven there is no envy. There is also no American competitive anxiety. If Calvin or Spurgeon has a bigger reward than me, as I do not doubt they will, I will only rejoice in that with them, and be glad that I'm in the Heavenly Eschatalogical Kingdom with Christ.

 

[Scott1]

Chapter XXXII
Of the State of Men after Death, and of the Resurrection of the Dead

I. The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption:[1] but their souls, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them:[2] the souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God, in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies.[3] And the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day.[4] Beside these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledges none.

II. At the last day, such as are found alive shall not die, but be changed:[5] and all the dead shall be raised up, with the selfsame bodies, and none other (although with different qualities), which shall be united again to their souls forever.[6]

III. The bodies of the unjust shall, by the power of Christ, be raised to dishonor: the bodies of the just, by His Spirit, unto honor; and be made conformable to His own glorious body.[7]

.

Chapter XXXIII
Of the Last Judgment

I. God has appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world, in righteousness, by Jesus Christ,[1] to whom all power and judgment is given of the Father.[2] In which day, not only the apostate angels shall be judged,[3] but likewise all persons that have lived upon earth shall appear before the tribunal of Christ, to give an account of their thoughts, words, and deeds; and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.[4]

II. The end of God's appointing this day is for the manifestation of the glory of His mercy, in the eternal salvation of the elect; and of His justice, in the damnation of the reprobate, who are wicked and disobedient. For then shall the righteous go into everlasting life, and receive that fulness of joy and refreshing, which shall come from the presence of the Lord; but the wicked who know not God, and obey not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into eternal torments, and be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.[5]

III. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin; and for the greater consolation of the godly in their adversity:[6] so will He have that day unknown to men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour the Lord will come; and may be ever prepared to say, Come Lord Jesus, come quickly, Amen.[7]

 

[earl40]

God's judgment is according to righteousness. Re the thief and Calvin, God will take into account the fact that Calvin was more gifted than the thief in assigning rewards.

Louis Berkhof

P.542: Scripture clearly teaches that the good works of believers are not meritorious in the proper sense of the word. We should bear in mind, however, that the word "merit" is employed in a twofold sense, the one strict and proper, and the other loose. Strictly speaking a meritorious work is one to which, on account of its intrinsic value and dignity, the reward is justly due from commutative justice. Loosely speaking, however, a work that is deserving of approval and to which a reward is somehow attached (by promise, agreement, or otherwise) is also sometimes called meritorious. Such works are praiseworthy and are rewarded by God. But however this may be, they are surely not meritorious in the stricty sense of the word. They do not, by their own intrinsic moral value, make God a debtor to him who performs them. In strict justice the good works of believers merit nothing.

Here's a thread on different types of merit explained very clearly by Rev. Lane Keister. The good works of believers are rewarded because God wants to reward them, by a kind of pactum merit:
http://www.puritanboard.com/f31/condign-congruent-pactum-merit-66235/

Earl

as I have read that "reprobation like election is not based on works".

Preterition - the leaving of some out from election - is by God's sovereign and mysterious choice. Reprobation is a result of the individual's own responsible sinfulness and is perfectly just.

So do you think people are bound for hell because they sin or are sinners? In other words, I believe the "basis" many go there is because they were imputed the the unrighteous of the first Adam and thus are justly condemned because they are sinners. The sin or works the reprobate commit is the "basis" for the degree of punishment. The reward or crown for the righteous is based on works done in faith.

 

[Peairtach]

So do you think people are bound for hell because they sin or are sinners? In other words, I believe the "basis" many go there is because they were imputed the the unrighteous of the first Adam and thus are justly condemned because they are sinners. The sin or works the reprobate commit is the "basis" for the degree of punishment. The reward or crown for the righteous is based on works done in faith.

OK I forgot about original sin. People go to Hell because they are sinners and the degree of punishment depends on what they do with God's good gifts.

But Adam's sin is justly imputed to them, so it is in some way their own. Although a man like Robert Dabney found this mysterious.

But it is Man's sin -including original sin - that reprobates people to Hell not God working in them. God just doesn't save them, as is His right.

They can't take comfort in the fact that God is in some way responsible for them being in Hell. They are the ones who are responsible for their sin and its punishment.

See e.g. Shedd's "Calvinism Pure and Mixed" (Banner of Truth).

 

[earl40]

So do you think people are bound for hell because they sin or are sinners? In other words, I believe the "basis" many go there is because they were imputed the the unrighteous of the first Adam and thus are justly condemned because they are sinners. The sin or works the reprobate commit is the "basis" for the degree of punishment. The reward or crown for the righteous is based on works done in faith.

OK I forgot about original sin. People go to Hell because they are sinners and the degree of punishment depends on what they do with God's good gifts.

But Adam's sin is justly imputed to them, so it is in some way their own. Although a man like Robert Dabney found this mysterious.

But it is Man's sin -including original sin - that reprobates people to Hell not God working in them. God just doesn't save them, as is His right.

They can't take comfort in the fact that God is in some way responsible for them being in Hell. They are the ones who are responsible for their sin and its punishment.

See e.g. Shedd's "Calvinism Pure and Mixed" (Banner of Truth).

I had little doubt we would not agree.

 

[kvanlaan]

Let me get this straight: we die, we go to heaven. Then we are judged when Christ comes again for 'rewards', as it were, or specific punishment for those who go to hell. Is this a correct understanding of the doctrine?

Also, is this sort of conundrum the reason for the RC teaching of Purgatory?

 

[MW]

I can see a case made for reward here on earth, but things we do just can't compare with Christ's righteousness.

Things we do can't compare to Christ's righteousness but they can adorn and display it. He that is righteous doeth righteousness. judgment of works is perfectly compatible with justification by faith because the judgment is of works as fruits of righteousness, not as a cause of salvation.

 

[MW]

So here it is - I couldn't answer this question from my son. If we go to either heaven or hell when we die, then why is Christ going to judge us later, too? Is there a second judgment? Is the first one a pass/fail and the second a more detailed discussion, like a parent/teacher interview?

Perhaps it might help if we draw attention to what is judged. 2 Cor. 5:10 teaches that it is for deeds done in the body. A part of the rationale behind physical punishment and rewards is the fact that the good and evil being rewarded are done physically. The reality is that man is a single creature, a unity of body and soul. He will be judged accordingly.

 

[BertMulder]

Let me get this straight: we die, we go to heaven. Then we are judged when Christ comes again for 'rewards', as it were, or specific punishment for those who go to hell. Is this a correct understanding of the doctrine?

Also, is this sort of conundrum the reason for the RC teaching of Purgatory?

Kevin, I think it is because of our limited human understanding of eternity that it seems there is a time lag... and that is just it, there is a time lag, but time is a creation of God, tied to this earth. We do not know how that is affected by eternity. A thousand years is but a day in His sight.

 

[Scott1]

Let me get this straight: we die, we go to heaven. Then we are judged when Christ comes again for 'rewards', as it were, or specific punishment for those who go to hell. Is this a correct understanding of the doctrine?

Also, is this sort of conundrum the reason for the RC teaching of Purgatory?

My understanding is that, after physical death, we await "the second resurrection," at which time believers receive new, glorified bodies. That is part of the process of redemption.

The judgment seat of Christ is for all, believers and nonbelievers. We don't have a great deal of specifics about it, and don't want to speculate.

But there appears to be a complete accounting of one's life (a motivation for Christian's to "live right" now), rewards and losses- SEPARATE from salvation. It ends with Christ's righteous judgment of all men, and those that are His being consigned to heaven by pardon for sin, the imputed righteousness of Christ, or hell for not having that, and being left to sin's consequence.