Heaven question

[Edm]

Something I have not had much reason to wonder about but now am curious. I grew up thinking when you died you either immediately went to heaven or hell. At Sunday school a few weeks ago my 13 yo told us they were taught that day that you don't go to heaven until after judgment day. ( this was at a Baptist church). So if I look at the WCF, it says we immediately are received into the highest heavens, or cast into hell. Then the next part talks about judgment day. So, two questions. Do we go straight to the FINAL heaven? If we die before judgment day, are we in heaven, then brought back for judgment, then go back to heaven? Thanks for your time.
As a note, I am a PCA member, but due to a lack of PCA churches we are attending a reformed SBC church.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello Ed (belated welcome to PB!),

I think this is the standard understanding with regard to your questions, but first the Scriptures: 2 Cor 5:6, 8:

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord. . . We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.​

And then there is Paul (again) talking of whether it is better for him to remain in the body or to go to be with the Lord, in Phil 1:23, 24:

For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.​

In Hebrews Paul also describes Heaven—what is called the "intermediate state" (where the saints go before the judgment day, and our eternal lives after the great resurrection on New Earth) :

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant...​

So, to briefly answer you: When a believer in Christ dies he or she goes to be with Christ and the other spirits of just men and women made perfect in Heaven, where they await the general resurrection; after that is over, they go to their final destination, which is briefly described here, in Rev 21:1-4:

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

​

This is the final place for the children of God, to be on New Earth with their Saviour and God, where we shall enjoy the great marriage supper of the Lamb, Rev 19:7-9:

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.​

Anthony Hoekema wrote an interesting piece on life on New Earth, Heaven: Not just an eternal day off (excerpted from his book, The Bible and the Future). I hope this answers your questions, Ed.

 

[Edm]

Thank you for taking the time to write out that detailed response. It was very helpful.

 

[Presbuteros]

Although I wouldn't recommend him for the Christian that isn't well grounded in the Scriptures, N.T. Wright has an interesting teaching on the subject. I'm currently reading his work, The Resurrection of the Son of God. He asserts that there is a 'two step process' when you die. After you die, you will be with the Lord Jesus in a temporary place. But after judgment day, God will make a new heavens and a new earth. Heaven will be on earth, and that is where we will be forever with the LORD.

I seem to think that he is right in this area.

 

[Miss Marple]

What a marvelous thing to think about.

 

[RamistThomist]

Heaven is important but it's not the end of the world. It's a stopping place until we get to the New Heavens and New Earth.

Gehenna is trickier. It's not a pleasant place but there seems to be something else post-judgment.

 

[Paul1976]

Although I wouldn't recommend him for the Christian that isn't well grounded in the Scriptures, N.T. Wright has an interesting teaching on the subject. I'm currently reading his work, The Resurrection of the Son of God. He asserts that there is a 'two step process' when you die. After you die, you will be with the Lord Jesus in a temporary place. But after judgment day, God will make a new heavens and a new earth. Heaven will be on earth, and that is where we will be forever with the LORD.

I haven't read much N.T. Wright in this area in detail, but some of I've heard I believe to be unbalanced and somewhat dangerous. Wright has a catch saying that sums up my concerns nicely: "Jesus is coming back, but it's not the end of the world." He's not entirely wrong in that there is some continuity between the current Heavens and Earth with the New Heavens and Earth. But, there is also some discontinuity which I believe Wright understates. Wright is a postmillennialiest and I believe his view is more or less Christianity cleans up this place so well that when Christ does return, there's not much left to do. I've learned much of my understanding of Wright's position from a friend, so this is second-hand and apologize if I've misstated anything.

 

[RamistThomist]

Although I wouldn't recommend him for the Christian that isn't well grounded in the Scriptures, N.T. Wright has an interesting teaching on the subject. I'm currently reading his work, The Resurrection of the Son of God. He asserts that there is a 'two step process' when you die. After you die, you will be with the Lord Jesus in a temporary place. But after judgment day, God will make a new heavens and a new earth. Heaven will be on earth, and that is where we will be forever with the LORD.

I haven't read much N.T. Wright in this area in detail, but some of I've heard I believe to be unbalanced and somewhat dangerous. Wright has a catch saying that sums up my concerns nicely: "Jesus is coming back, but it's not the end of the world." He's not entirely wrong in that there is some continuity between the current Heavens and Earth with the New Heavens and Earth. But, there is also some discontinuity which I believe Wright understates. Wright is a postmillennialiest and I believe his view is more or less Christianity cleans up this place so well that when Christ does return, there's not much left to do. I've learned much of my understanding of Wright's position from a friend, so this is second-hand and apologize if I've misstated anything.

Wright has specifically rejected postmillennialism in several of his lectures and on the NT Wright Page website. He is some variant of amillennialism.

 

[RamistThomist]

The question is this: Is the eschatological end game going to a Platonic heaven and hanging out with right triangles, or is it living in a resurrected body on the New Earth?

 

[Paul1976]

Thanks for correcting me Jacob. I'm at a bit of a loss to explain some of what I've read of Wright, but I have not read much.

> The question is this: Is the eschatological end game going to a Platonic heaven and hanging out with right triangles, or is it living in a resurrected body on the New Earth?

I'm a bit confused here. The Bible, especially the NT, goes out of its way to stress a literal physical resurrection of the dead, and not a spiritual existence following Christ's return. I'm not sure that any theological systems that take the Bible very seriously propose a non-physical final state. At least some flavors of dispensationalism seem to see the new Earth as being for Israel while the church gets some form of heaven, but I'm aware of any that deny a real physicality to it. I'm sure if you went far enough away from orthodox Christianity, you'd find this. And, there are plenty of doctrinally uninformed who simply don't know any better. But are there authentic versions of this idea of a Platonic heaven within theological systems worth taking seriously? Just curious.

 

[RamistThomist]

I'm a bit confused here. The Bible, especially the NT, goes out of its way to stress a literal physical resurrection of the dead, and not a spiritual existence following Christ's return.

That, also, is NT Wright's position. The problem is that in the Middle Ages it wasn't always easy to affirm both a literal new creation existence and the primacy of the intellect's participating in the beatific vision.

But the Bible does also affirm a non-bodily existence between death and the resurrected state. I had a thread on this some months ago on near-death experiences. It got a lot of people nervous, though I was basically quoting 2 Cor. and Augustine.

But are there authentic versions of this idea of a Platonic heaven within theological systems worth taking seriously? Just curious.

Again, as long as we are talking about the immediate state between death and final resurrection, it's not a problem. Also depends on what we mean by "Platonic." If by "Platonic" we mean universals that do not depend on physical exemplars, then the intermediate state, including our mode of existence, is Platonic. But that's not the whole story.

 

[Paul1976]

Jacob - I do agree about a non-physical intermediate state. I would think that is a pretty strong majority opinion too. For literal, physical bodily resurrection, I was only referring to the final state.