Originally posted by Robin
I have a great heaviness in my heart - Kerry...you sound quite defensive - using words like "attack" and presuming my heart by stating such (building up straw-men)....when it is YOU that opened the conversation inviting commentary. You don't sound teachable - rather, it seems you want to stomp on others --- justifying your position.
Not at all. And if it seems like I am defensive, I'm not. I may need to work on presentation - the last reply was typed hastily, since I needed to eat lunch and prepare for the next set of kids coming (I'm at work). I can tone back.
And I'm far from not teachable. The problem may be that you're communicating with me via bits and bytes.... and you can't hear tone, inflection, read body language, etc.... simply by electronic medium, no matter how many smilies you use.
It sounds like you have a strong bent on establishing your point via your experiences...and not a very careful understanding of Scripture.
You're entitled to your opinion. If I were 'unteachable', I wouldn't have ever given a thought to the doctrines of grace between 98 and 2000 when a brother in Christ challenged me to re-evaluate my theology.... nor would I feel the need to interact with other brothers and sisters in Christ -
I'd be sufficient unto myself.... (and I'm NOT....)
I actually
don't do 'experience' as the litmus test of truth... again, you don't know me, you only know your own interactions with folks who've said similar things and you seek to judge on the basis of those. I don't do the 'word from the Lord' thing. I
do believe that the Spirit is active in the life of the believer.
Of course - I agree with and understand God works directly with His people --- the right question is HOW and how is that communication discerned and kept in good order - under the authority of Scripture; the Church; Pastors; elders, etc. God's pattern is that we are all accountable.
I never said differently. Hebrews 13, Matthew 16, 18 and 1 Tim. are all presupposed by my argument. I have simply presented a daily scenario that I've seen happen to both the Reformed and non-reformed. Perhaps a better term would be
providence - the Lord ordering the steps of a man to bring about conviction of sin, progressive sanctification on a daily basis and guidance. While these are not 'audible voices' by any means (and I'm not arguing for audible voices by the way), the Lord who orders the steps of men according to His Sovereign will
does use these things to bring about change in the life of the believer and guide him/her in the direction He wants him/her to go in. I may term this as the Lord
speaking into my life, but do not mistake it for me hearing some audible voice from heaven in the back of my head.
I (again) cite another example. Years ago, my ex-fianceé contacted me after a two year break from talking to me and finally 'explained' the reason we broke up. Without getting detailed, I was quite bitter and angry upon finding out the truth. I debated for a while on what to do and shared my dilemma with a few of my brothers and sisters in Christ who were close to me and knew her and I and the whole thing. Between one brother pointing me to the parable of the unjust servant that owed his master big time and the Pastor running over the memory verse from the previous week (Eph. 4:32) which seemed to THUNDER across the pulpit to me when he read it (even the Pastor's son, who was standing right next to me at the time chuckled, looked at me and said 'That was for you.' I can't describe it, but the 'light' went on in my head and I knew it was what the Lord would have me to do - not just because it's a command, but because He ordained that I be there in church, standing right where I needed to be standing to hear this with those very thoughts flowing through my mind.
How are these two examples contrary to scripture ? Please enlighten me. I am seriously trying to understand what the problem is.
Where in Scripture - is a "Lone-Christian" doing their own thing - "Jesus and me" - hearing or receiving impressions as to what to do next in life?
Why do we have a 'pray ye like this' forum ? We have people praying for people's plans. Why ? If the door opens for the person's plans, is that truly the Lord's will ? Or is there another better opportunity around the corner ? Please explain to me how one should discern between these two options.
Again... my experience has been different.... but I'd like to hear your explanation.
God imbues each with the responsibility to make wise decisions based on His Word. Yet, we are to be bound to a local body and submit to the authority of Pastors-elders and each other.
Okay... and again.... this isn't even the issue we're discussing here. I don't know how you're misunderstanding what I'm saying, but I invite you to go re-read... especially what's in this thread.
I think you're one of those (Paul warns Timothy of) that has an unhealthy interest in quarrels and controversies. I'm going to avoid being involved with your posts --- you sound proud and self-appointed. They are quarrels about words - that don't seem to edify. (At least for me.)
So far, I see no possibility of dialogging with you.
Robin
Now that wasn't very edifying, was it ? I'm sorry you feel that way. Perhaps someone willing to actually talk with me and not name call will talk with me on this. I'm coming from a different theological tradition and I'm attempting to understand here.
[Edited on 3-8-2005 by OS_X]
[Edited on 3-8-2005 by OS_X]
I'm playing devil's advocate for all of your non-reformed friends.
