How does one define what an idol is?

[MMasztal]

Or what makes something, other than the obvious pagan god/statues, etc., an idol?

We will be meeting tomorrow to discuss whether to keep our church's tradition of erecting a Chrismon tree in the sanctuary. I view it as an idol for obvious reasons, but as evidenced by the responses I received from the other elders at our last meeting, which seemed to come from a "what will my wife say" perspective, it became evident to me that the Chrismon tree is an object of affection for several women in the church who decorate it every year.

In my opinion, the only object of affection that belongs in the church is Christ. Not decorations, stained glass windows, the building itself, etc.

Am I being intransigent?

Thanks for your input.

 

[Poimen]

An idol is anything the captivates our mind, heart, soul and strength (i.e. whole being) more than God. In the context of church & worship could be anything: the pews, the clothes you wear, even the man who brings God's Word!

I strongly agree with your position on not having a Christmas tree in the sanctuary yet I would hesitate to say it is an idol because you can't read their hearts and know that for certain. I would not hesitate, however, to say it would be a distraction, and certainly one ought to have good reason to have it in the church. The reasons for having it are obviously sentimental and based on that should not be approved. Furthermore Christmas trees are a cultural expression and don't enhance our understanding of God more than, say, the Word and Sacraments. And since they are not approved by God to be used in worship what function does it serve other than to 'enhance' (a matter of taste!) the room?

But even though I think Christmas trees are ridiculous (in or outside the church) a compromise could be broached: couldn't they just put it downstairs or somewhere else outside of the sanctuary?

 

[MMasztal]

couldn't they just put it downstairs or somewhere else outside of the sanctuary?

Not really. It's at least 12 feet tall.

 

[Edward]

couldn't they just put it downstairs or somewhere else outside of the sanctuary?

Not really. It's at least 12 feet tall.

Get a smaller tree?

the other elders at our last meeting, which seemed to come from a "what will my wife say" perspective

Trying to come up with a diplomatic comment on that.

 

[lynnie]

Go in with some research.

The Babylonian sun god died on the winter solstice (Dec 21-22) and rose from the dead three days later. They put evergreen branches in the home as a symbol of eternal life. Check out the Druids and the origin of Christmas trees. It goes back to pagan customs. The Puritans were very anti Christmas.

This is a tough one. You have be be gentle and of course say that you know nobody is worshipping the sun god or pagan druid gods. My church does an "angel tree" which is used for evangelism (you buy gifts for kids whose dads are in prison). Take this up with a liberal German Lutheran and you'll find out how holy those trees are, why they stand for Jesus Christ himself and his green life in the middle of dead winter.


If your church sees itself as in the Reformed tradition, a casual google on the Puritans and Christmas should yield you ample material to make your case.

I think you'll be outvoted, and even get hostile reactions if it gets around that you are anti a Christmas tree in the church. But it feels really satisfying to speak up about the origins anyway.

And to think how we turn around from our Christmas sanctuary and criticize the emergent church with their icons and candles.......

 

[MMasztal]

I think you'll be outvoted, and even get hostile reactions if it gets around that you are anti a Christmas tree in the church. But it feels really satisfying to speak up about the origins anyway.

And to think how we turn around from our Christmas sanctuary and criticize the emergent church with their icons and candles.......

Yes, I'll probably get outvoted. And candles? Yes, we have those too. "Advent candles" of which we light one for each of the 4 weeks prior to Christmas.

 

[Scott1]

I think "idol" and "idolatry" are related terms and we get a good basis for understanding them in Romans 1.

Idolatry is worshipping something God created in priority over Him or otherwise improperly.

Idols are the means by which we do that and can be anything, really, in God's creation, e.g. the sun, moon, animals, ancestors, money, self image, etc.

 

[Jack K]

Stained glass or the building itself may distract us from Christ or may draw us to Christ. It depends on how they're used. Same with a tree, I'd say, although the potential for distraction seems fairly high to me and its pagan roots give me pause (has this tradition been redeemed to now bring glory to Christ?).

So I'd say make a wise decision, with guidance from Scripture, keeping in mind that it ultimately isn't the decor but the heart that matters most. ANY setting or decorations for worship have the potential to distract or become idol-like. Even "no decor" is itself a decor choice we could end up feeling self-righteous about.

 

[Christusregnat]

Am I being intransigent?

Thanks for your input.

These might be helpful points to start with:

Q. 108. What are the duties required in the second commandment?

A. The duties required in the second commandment are, the receiving, observing, and keeping pure and entire, all such religious worship and ordinances as God hath instituted in his Word;[518] particularly prayer and thanksgiving in the name of Christ;[519] the reading, preaching, and hearing of the Word;[520] the administration and receiving of the sacraments;[521] church government and discipline;[522] the ministry and maintainance thereof;[523] religious fasting;[524] swearing by the name of God;[525] and vowing unto him;[526] as also the disapproving, detesting, opposing all false worship;[527] and, according to each one’s place and calling, removing it, and all monuments of idolatry.[528]

Q. 109. What are the sins forbidden in the second commandment?

A. The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising,[529] counselling,[530] commanding,[531] using,[532] and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself;[533] tolerating a false religion; the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever;[534] all worshipping of it,[535] or God in it or by it;[536] the making of any representation of feigned deities,[537] and all worship of them, or service belonging to them,[538] all superstitious devices,[539] corrupting the worship of God,[540] adding to it, or taking from it,[541] whether invented and taken up of ourselves,[542] or received by tradition from others,[543] though under the title of antiquity,[544] custom,[545] devotion,[546] good intent, or any other pretence whatsoever;[547] simony;[548] sacrilege;[549] all neglect,[550] contempt,[551] hindering,[552] and opposing the worship and ordinances which God hath appointed.[553].

The portion highlighted seems to be applicable in this case. It seems to be a well-intended addition to the worship of God, as are all holidays or observance of holidays, other than the Sabbath.

Cheers,

 

[BobVigneault]

Quoting an older thread, this is how I define it:

Idolatry began when Satan's worship and dependence moved from God to himself. Eve was next when she accepted that the serpent was a 'legitimate' point of contact with God's Truth but apart from God's Word. She listened to the serpent instead of God. Adam quickly followed when he elevated the word of his wife above the Word of God.

Idolatry does not require a statue or picture or object, man commits idolatry when he seeks a point of contact or approach to God that is apart from God's Word. There is one mediator between God and man, Christ alone, the Living Word, any other mediator is an idol.

 

[TeachingTulip]

Quoting an older thread, this is how I define it:

Idolatry began when Satan's worship and dependence moved from God to himself. Eve was next when she accepted that the serpent was a 'legitimate' point of contact with God's Truth but apart from God's Word. She listened to the serpent instead of God. Adam quickly followed when he elevated the word of his wife above the Word of God.

Idolatry does not require a statue or picture or object, man commits idolatry when he seeks a point of contact or approach to God that is apart from God's Word. There is one mediator between God and man, Christ alone, the Living Word, any other mediator is an idol.

I hear you, sir, but as a woman I wonder how this applies to submitting to our husbands and Pastors to correctly learn the truths of God? As well as the females on PB reading the wisdom of sound contributors on this site . . . ???

Surely, wives are not to read Holy Scripture separate and apart from all the Christian males who God provides to teach and counsel, in order to avoid idolatry?

 

[MMasztal]

Am I being intransigent?

Thanks for your input.

These might be helpful points to start with:

Q. 108. What are the duties required in the second commandment?

A. The duties required in the second commandment are, the receiving, observing, and keeping pure and entire, all such religious worship and ordinances as God hath instituted in his Word;[518] particularly prayer and thanksgiving in the name of Christ;[519] the reading, preaching, and hearing of the Word;[520] the administration and receiving of the sacraments;[521] church government and discipline;[522] the ministry and maintainance thereof;[523] religious fasting;[524] swearing by the name of God;[525] and vowing unto him;[526] as also the disapproving, detesting, opposing all false worship;[527] and, according to each one’s place and calling, removing it, and all monuments of idolatry.[528]

Q. 109. What are the sins forbidden in the second commandment?

A. The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising,[529] counselling,[530] commanding,[531] using,[532] and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself;[533] tolerating a false religion; the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever;[534] all worshipping of it,[535] or God in it or by it;[536] the making of any representation of feigned deities,[537] and all worship of them, or service belonging to them,[538] all superstitious devices,[539] corrupting the worship of God,[540] adding to it, or taking from it,[541] whether invented and taken up of ourselves,[542] or received by tradition from others,[543] though under the title of antiquity,[544] custom,[545] devotion,[546] good intent, or any other pretence whatsoever;[547] simony;[548] sacrilege;[549] all neglect,[550] contempt,[551] hindering,[552] and opposing the worship and ordinances which God hath appointed.[553].

The portion highlighted seems to be applicable in this case. It seems to be a well-intended addition to the worship of God, as are all holidays or observance of holidays, other than the Sabbath.

Cheers,

Thanks. I used the WC and WCoF se as well as other arguments, but to no avail. Most on our session are operationally unfamiliar with the WC and WCoF which frustrates the daylights out of me. The sad part is no one could give me a reason WHY we should have a chrismon tree in the sanctuary.

A survey of the other congregations in our presbytery showed most having christmas/chrismon trees. One comment came from one other pastor who said if we don't have a chrismon tree, don't put one up. If you already have one, let it stay for the sake of the unity and peace in the church.

I probably should be satisfied that the easter egg hunt got moved to Saturday and the Halloween party got cancelled.