How should layfolk react to boring preaching?

[Edward]

My first reaction when I read the post on the other thread was that a clarifying question needed to be asked:

Is it the preacher that has changed, or the listener?

If it's the listener (and likely in most cases it is) then the problem isn't the pastor.

If, on the other hand, the pastor has burned out, or gotten bored, or distracted, then the root problem needs to be addressed.

 

[Caroline]

Well, I teach for a living, and so I think there certainly is something to be said for the idea that a teacher who can keep the attention of the class is a more effective educator than someone who cannot. Two teachers can present the exact same material and in one class, the students learn well, and in the other, everyone is lost. I think the same is true of pastors.

When someone is initially looking for a church, they are free to look for something that suits them, I think, and they aren't bound to continue at the first church that they wander into. So I saw no problem with what Pergamum did. We think of a lot of things whenever we first look for a church--is it close by? does it have good classes for the kids? etc. And, as a newcomer, it's not really your place to approach the pastor and say, "By the way, if I'm going to stay here, you need to work on your speaking skills."

On the other hand, if someone has been going somewhere for a while, then I think they owe it to the pastor to consider things more thoroughly and to have some compassion. Pastors get old, get depressed, develop Parkinson's disease, or whatever ... it may become more of a struggle for him. Not everyone is young and full of energy. But then, there should be a point too where someone might have to say, "Respectfully, sir, we've heard sermons on the book of Jude now for 20 Sundays running, and it's a really short book."

I think this sort of criticism goes over better though if you have a good relationship with the pastor and he knows you are not 'against him'.

I suppose whether I would ultimately leave a church over 'boring preaching' would depend largely on other factors than the preaching style. If I was new at a church and the sermon put me to sleep three Sundays in a row, I'd look for another church. But having been faithfully fed and ministered to at the church that I now attend for 5 years (and I am a difficult parishioner--I won't lie), I can't really envision a situation in which I would leave. If my pastor gets old and not as 'together' as he used to be in his style, my husband and I will still be sitting in the pew because we know the sort of minister that he is in his heart, and that there is much that we all can learn from him, even if we have to overlook more 'ums' and 'uhs' than we used to. And our kids would know not to ever, EVER call him boring or disrespect him.

But if a pastor really cares about his flock, I think he does try to look for ways to effectively communicate with them. If he is hampered by age, ill health, etc, then that is something beyond his control. But if he just doesn't care ... well, that's another story.

 

[Pergamum]

In case anyone is wondering, this OP has no relation to my present circumstances. My home church is Rockin'...but I have encountered this in the past when I had to move around a lot. And in most cases the listener receives the blame and the rest of the congregation classifies them as "allergic to real meat", etc, "they couldn't handle the truth"or "We preached too deep for them...they ae used to light and fluffy." And this is NOT the case at all in some of the cases.

Practically, I also want to know (since a lot of seminary questions have arisen of late) how ministers are being prepared, and also how I can better prepare my self so that not only my content can be good, but my silly mannerisms and style do not get in the way of a blessing as the Word is opened. I want to be a better preacher, not just in Message, but in the delivery of that Message.

 

[Brian Withnell]

I've got one example from life that I will not name the pastor, nor the church, but the preaching was ... shallow and did not seem well prepared.

First I will define what I believe a "good sermon" is. Good sermon: Noun; a sermon in which the word is used liberally, application is salient to the world in which the church lives, and interpretation is clearly expounded from a proper hermeneutic through exegesis. It is not a presentation style, and it can be evaluated through the reading of the words spoken from a transcript of the service.

I have been in a church plant that had a recent graduate from seminary who seemingly did not deliver good sermons unless the session that oversaw the plant was present ... then he delivered excellent preaching. It may be that because he knew when the committee was coming he worked extra hard to prepare out of a sense of nervousness (I want to give the benefit of the doubt to him as to why the difference was night and day between the two extremes). This was not my private observation, but all those that had started the church (a group of very godly men, most of them had been good reformed folk for many years). The church steering committee actually asked the session to meet with him (and us) to discuss what was happening. In this case, I think it was a matter of a pastor who had no experience having been left on his own far too often because of distance between the plant and the "mother" church. The poor man was essentially "wet behind the ears" and thrust into being pastor of what is arguably one of the hardest situation for a pastor.

(As an aside, I really think our presbyteries need to address this by making sure that "fresh pastors" do not go to new churches, but rather that seasoned pastors go to new churches until the churches are established. This ought to be until the time a session is put in place, and support ought to be at least partly from presbytery until it happens. A 20 year veteran pastor is what ought to be the norm for church plants until they are fully established, and it might help greatly to provide new churches with the footing they need to have good sessions that are well trained, which in turn sets the tone for every subsequent session, as they are the ones that approve candidates for elder. Presbyteries ought to be in the business of planting every church that gets planted, and in the business of seeking to plant churches where there are none. "And how can they hear unless someone is sent?")

The end result was good. The pastor heard what we had been saying, the session sent someone down to hear the sermons nearly every other week (but not scheduled ahead of time) to monitor the sermons. And it helped the pastor grow and the church grow as well (there was a substantial change to the quality of sermons after that--not that they were the best in the world, but they seemed to be much better prepared and thought out) and while the men in the church had been helping already, the pastor asked for and received additional help (I believe that is when the church had a volunteer secretary start working about 15 hours a week if memory serves me [I am getting old, and three different church plants start to run together!]).

So back to the original ... if the sermons are not good sermons, there may be other means for dealing with the problem than leaving. If those that can tell something is wrong leave, where does that leave everyone else? If a pastor is doing poorly, perhaps there can be correction (especially with a young pastor) that will allow them to flourish and not only will that benefit him, but the church now has another good preacher. So leaving is not right if you have a session and you have not approached them about the problem first. You might find they will let you know they are addressing lack of quality in sermons (I'm not talking error in doctrine, but "touchy-feely" mush that feeds nobody.) Then they may also be in a position to help you grow as well (the problem might be with you).

A final thought ... mostly to our elders that oversee the sheep. Please remember your charges men. We are needy and sometimes we need you to be much more careful with a church plant than what might otherwise be done. Do not allow a church plant to be run by a fresh-out without close supervision; it is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Pergamum]

Brian: Wow, that sounds like a good conclusion to a potentially disastrous situation. How can a congregational church do this? Any advice for your independant brethren?

 

[Brian Withnell]

Brian: Wow, that sounds like a good conclusion to a potentially disastrous situation. How can a congregational church do this? Any advice for your independant brethren?

Pergy,

I just don't know how you could do it. There are problems that I see the church needing a presbytery to handle ... how does a congregational church handle a weak pastor that is just too young to do the job? Flounder? Kick him out and find another? I truly am Presbyterian by conviction, but I did attend a congregational church several times in my life and in every case (including the church in which I first heard the gospel) I was confronted by problems that would have been solved by preby polity.

I suppose if there are elders in the church, and they are good people, they could confront the pastor. The pastor answers to God, but there needs to be accountability for everyone in a church. Who holds the pastor accountable here on earth for his actions and life in a congregational church? (That is a real question ... I don't know and would love an answer to how a pastor is held accountable, I just don't know.)

If there is a session/board of elders they could certainly meet with the pastor (especially if they are viewed as equals) to discuss the perceived problem. In that particular situation, though, the were no elders in the local church plant, so who would hold the pastor accountable then? I feel for you brother ... with nobody to hold you accountable, it is a dangerous place to be in this world regardless of your standing. I certainly would not want to be without elders over me holding me accountable for my walk and life.

 

[MW]

Our generation were wisely taught by the older generation that boredom is a state of the mind. If the preaching is boring I would venture a guess and say it is probably due to the person listening not taking the appropriate interest in what is being said.

 

[Pergamum]

Our generation were wisely taught by the older generation that boredom is a state of the mind. If the preaching is boring I would venture a guess and say it is probably due to the person listening not taking the appropriate interest in what is being said.

Your use of the word "probably" gives me the hint that even you would admit to situations where true boring-ness was the case and that style might mean something, even if we are to minimize this as we strive to be good listeners and ignore style over content?

 

[Spinningplates2]

I recently heard a sermon by Rev. Greg Harris and he said, "It is a sin to preach preach a boring sermon." In context he went on to explain that it was a sin for a Pastor to know he is boring and not care.

 

[MW]

Your use of the word "probably" gives me the hint that even you would admit to situations where true boring-ness was the case and that style might mean something, even if we are to minimize this as we strive to be good listeners and ignore style over content?

I suppose so; but even in cases where I've thought the person repeated himself once too often I prayed the Lord might bless that message to an individual who might really need to hear the same thing stated repeatedly. I think we should be willing to explore the possibility that we are by nature selfish hearers and do not think of others nearly as often as we should.

 

[Pergamum]

Your use of the word "probably" gives me the hint that even you would admit to situations where true boring-ness was the case and that style might mean something, even if we are to minimize this as we strive to be good listeners and ignore style over content?

I suppose so; but even in cases where I've thought the person repeated himself once too often I prayed the Lord might bless that message to an individual who might really need to hear the same thing stated repeatedly. I think we should be willing to explore the possibility that we are by nature selfish hearers and do not think of others nearly as often as we should.

Yes, you are quite right. Thanks for your input.

 

[Kevin]

Perhaps one cause of a "boring" preacher could be a lack of a praying congregation?

I doubt it.

 

[Pergamum]

What do we do if we suspect that WE ourselves are boring? I saw a lady sleeping 4or 5 weeks ago, and it really really hurt and shook my confidence. So, I think I preached louder (ha).

 

[Brian Withnell]

Our generation were wisely taught by the older generation that boredom is a state of the mind. If the preaching is boring I would venture a guess and say it is probably due to the person listening not taking the appropriate interest in what is being said.

Absolutely in the sense of when in a situation you should make the most of it. Yet I would venture you have been in the presence of another person that is just boring?

The other shoe of course is that a pastor is capable of doing less than his best (as anyone else) in preparing. And while I have seen my pastor on *very* rare occasion give a sermon that seemed less than his normal challenging, informative, inspiring presentation of the scriptures, it does occasionally happen (even he gets sick at times and has less time to prepare ... yet he still delivers a good sermon even then). I know my pastor's work ethic, and that he would stay up almost all night preparing rather than give a poor sermon. Does that mean every pastor has the same level of commitment? Are humans fallible? Do we all have varying degrees of sanctification?

I teach for a living. And while I am proud of some things I do, I am not always on the very top of my "game". Is it always the student's fault when they don't learn? No. Sometimes it is my fault in either not using proper technique, or having been sick (even sick, most teachers do better than a substitute). There are a number of reasons why a teacher may do less than a perfect job for all the students. Does that mean the students don't still have a responsibility? No. They must learn and do their part as well. For some, they will learn no matter what (I don't get paid to teach them). Others are the ones that are a challenge to get them to get to class at all (they are the ones that make me earn more than what I'm paid).

It is no different for a pastor. A pastor's calling is to the lost sheep. Not the sheep that are easy to tend, but to the sheep that are difficult. The ones that are out jumping around the rocks like mountain goats, the ones that play around the edge of a stream that will sweep them away, the ones that wander out by the edge of the woods where the wolves and bears and lions roam about are the sheep for whom a shepherd needs to concern himself.

Sheep need to follow ... but those that do are not the main duty of the shepherd. He leaves the 99 and goes after the lost sheep.

-----Added 7/17/2009 at 12:42:37 EST-----

What do we do if we suspect that WE ourselves are boring? I saw a lady sleeping 4or 5 weeks ago, and it really really hurt and shook my confidence. So, I think I preached louder (ha).

First, walk by faith. In everything, if you are doing the best you can, presume that you are doing the best, and trust that God is using his word.

Second, have someone video tape your sermons (digital cameras can do this) as a means of you looking at and hearing your own sermon. It may surprise you.

Third, this one is really hard, look at and listen to *really* good sermons. Figure out what techniques are being used. See if what you are seeing makes sense and then adapt it to your own style.

One of the things you also need to know is that you shouldn't beat-up yourself or your congregation for an occasional tired member. I've been in church after being up sick all night (food poisoning) and found myself nodding because of lack of movement and physical exhaustion. I've been tired during what I know was a wonderful sermon because one of my children has been sick. I have found myself tired and unable to concentrate because of stress (my signature line refers to when my first wife was dying ... the battle was long and hard, and I could not concentrate for more than a few minutes at a time then just from the stress).

Practical point. Have the people standing (a hymn, or during the reading of the scripture) just prior to the sermon. It helps with keeping blood pooling to a minimum.

 

[Kevin]

Why is it theat we reformed folk pretend that all of our preachers are a Spurgeon or an Edwards?

I have met many men, while I was still a member of an IFB church, that were incompetant. Some of them did not know the books of the Bible. Some of them did not know church history. Some of them could not speak our mother tongue. The sugestion that it could in some way be the fault of the audience that he gave an incomprehnsible sermon is laughable.

What makes us (as reformed christians) so special?

Is it not possible that some men enter our pulpits with only the barest preparation for a pulpit ministry? Is it always the fault of the listener that the sermon is incomprehensible?

I would suggest that it is possible that many men in reformed pulpits are incompitent. And a knowledge of the minute details of some minor point of doctrine is not enough to consider a man qualified for the office.

 

[Caroline]

Wow, several great posts! I'm really enjoying this thread.

Pergamum, that's an interesting point that you make (and I think Brian's answer was awesome). One other thing ... I think often, VERY often, people in the pews are not really aware of how well they can be seen. I see that as a teacher as well ... people behave as though they think you can't see them, like they are 'lost in the crowd' or something, when in fact, you can totally see EVERYTHING from the front.

Don't take it too hard, though. Sometimes people just come to church tired and think they can't be seen from the front, and it may not be really a reflection on your preaching.

But also, some people (such as my husband) close their eyes when they feel too distracted and want to concentrate more on what is being said, and it is actually not falling asleep, but being actually quite gripped by what is being said and wanting to be sure not to miss any of it. (Note to self: mention that to pastor in case he has been angsting about hubby nodding off during sermons).

 

[Pergamum]

Wow, several great posts! I'm really enjoying this thread.

Pergamum, that's an interesting point that you make (and I think Brian's answer was awesome). One other thing ... I think often, VERY often, people in the pews are not really aware of how well they can be seen. I see that as a teacher as well ... people behave as though they think you can't see them, like they are 'lost in the crowd' or something, when in fact, you can totally see EVERYTHING from the front.

Don't take it too hard, though. Sometimes people just come to church tired and think they can't be seen from the front, and it may not be really a reflection on your preaching.

But also, some people (such as my husband) close their eyes when they feel too distracted and want to concentrate more on what is being said, and it is actually not falling asleep, but being actually quite gripped by what is being said and wanting to be sure not to miss any of it. (Note to self: mention that to pastor in case he has been angsting about hubby nodding off during sermons).

Brian has given several awesome answers this past week.

 

[MW]

Absolutely in the sense of when in a situation you should make the most of it. Yet I would venture you have been in the presence of another person that is just boring?

Sure, but I just can't find anything boring in what is being spoken about when the Bible is the subject of discourse. I suppose that is the point I am trying to make. If people are finding solid biblical instruction somewhat mundane then I would be inclined to locate the problem in the hearer rather than the preacher. Yes, the preacher can always be improving, and needs to be thinking how he can speak the things of God to the greatest effect. Most reformed preachers I know are conscientious in doing this. But the sad reality is that most "hearers" do not give much thought as to how they can profit most from what is being presented to them. What have they been doing on Saturday night? Have they themselves been consulting commentaries or topical books in preparation for a sermon where they know what the text or subject will be? Usually not; and often they do the precise opposite by spending Saturday night entertaining themselves in the things of this present life. It is no wonder then that their minds are not cultivated to find discussion on biblical subjects of some interest to themselves when this is their general habit.

 

[Caroline]

Sure, but I just can't find anything boring in what is being spoken about when the Bible is the subject of discourse. I suppose that is the point I am trying to make. If people are finding solid biblical instruction somewhat mundane then I would be inclined to locate the problem in the hearer rather than the preacher. Yes, the preacher can always be improving, and needs to be thinking how he can speak the things of God to the greatest effect. Most reformed preachers I know are conscientious in doing this. But the sad reality is that most "hearers" do not give much thought as to how they can profit most from what is being presented to them. What have they been doing on Saturday night? Have they themselves been consulting commentaries or topical books in preparation for a sermon where they know what the text or subject will be? Usually not; and often they do the precise opposite by spending Saturday night entertaining themselves in the things of this present life. It is no wonder then that their minds are not cultivated to find discussion on biblical subjects of some interest to themselves when this is their general habit.

No, I'd have to disagree there. I've heard lots of boring stuff when the Bible is the subject of discourse. For example, I find Rick Warren a real snooze-fest. I can't listen to him for more than a minute or two before I'm wondering how long, seriously, is this guy going to continue to talk, because I think I can actually feel brain-cells starting to shrivel and die. (And I have no doubt that Warren thinks he gives good Biblical teaching, although I think it is the very definition of 'shallow').

But if someone is telling you that you have to study more the night before in order not to be bored, armourbearer, then I think they are just trying to weasel out of their responsibility. I see that in the teaching community, as well. It's always the most boring teachers that complain the most about how college students have no respect, never attend classes, don't listen, etc. They start putting a lot of new rules in place about class attendance and they tell students they have to read X amount in order to prepare for the lecture, etc, etc. It's always the students' fault because, of course, Dr. Smith couldn't possibly admit he needs to work on his presentation skills.

I have a severe distaste for this kind of reasoning, personally. It's circular, and there's no way to argue with it. It always reminds me of the UPCI and their attitude about women. They would tell me that I had to wear a skirt (instead of pants), and if I didn't, that showed that my heart wasn't right with God and I was trying to seduce men, and that I was rebellious. At that point, there's no way to win the argument. The only way not to be condemned is to wear the skirt. If I say that I don't think it is necessary, that just shows that I am 'rebellious' and that my heart isn't right with God. "Go and pray and fast, and humble yourself," they would tell me. "And then, when your heart is right, you will be ready to do what God wants you to do."

This is the same kind of reasoning, armourbearer. If someone has this attitude that it is always the flock and their hard hearts that makes them unsatisfied with the preaching, then there's no way to win that argument. Anything that they say to suggest that the preaching isn't brilliant will just get the response, "Well, then, obviously, you are not right with God. Go pray and read the Bible more and cultivate your mind in the proper way and then you will see that the preaching is brilliant."

 

[timmopussycat]

BTW, if the sermon is really boring, don't sit in any window sills, you might fall out and break your neck. If you worship in a cessationist church, the minister will not be able to raise you from the dead.

It ain't necessarily so. God has been known to do occasional miracles in cessationist circles!

 

[Semper Fidelis]

One thing that is frustrating in such discussions is the false dilemma that is often presented:

1. Pastors need to be well equipped and adequately prepare that they might feed the congreation with the Word
or
2. People need to be attentive.

The answer is "Yes". Some are answering as if the Scriptures are completely silent on point 2 and get rankled when it is pointed out. This thread is asking about how layfolk should react, Yes? I'm reminded of a scene in Full Metal Jacket where the D.I. yells at the man for leaving his locker unsecured and tells him that "...if it wasn't for idiots like you there wouldn't be any thieves."

It is not novel that we are to prepare our hearts for the hearing of the Word:

Q. 117. How is the sabbath or the Lord’s day to be sanctified?
A. The sabbath or Lord’s day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day,624 not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful;625 and making it our delight to spend the whole time (except so much of it as is to be taken up in works of necessity and mercy626) in the public and private exercises of God’s worship:627 and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.628

The problem with the dialogue is that those who are pointing out that hearing needs to be conscientious are not denying that bad sermons exist but boredom is a state of mind. My reaction to bad sermons is typically not boredom but added concentration because, in some cases, I'm having to labor harder to ensure that I work through some of the dross and take things captive to the Word.

Like so many things, we can only be responsible for our own sin in a given context. If the Pastor has failed to do his diligence then we are not justified to forego our own responsibilities. Turning our minds off is not justified. It may be much easier to do and the poor preacher bears judgment for his inadequate feeding but we cannot righly condemn another for our own sin in any context.

Respondants need to stop putting premises into the presentations of others if they are talking about the responsibilities of one of the parties.

Thus, when a person notes that people should get plenty of rest before the Lord's Day so they aren't sleepy or that they pray and meditate on the Word in preparation for the Lord's Day, it's not "blame shifting" for bad preaching but simply noting each person's responsiblity to come prepared to Worship. Even the best preaching cannot fill in the gaps for personal sloth.

This discussion is odd because I cannot think of a single passage (nor has anyone offered any exegesis) that permits boredom in the House of the Lord.

 

[DTK]

Rich,

From a pastoral perspective, I have found (especially in the church today) that, in virtually every setting, you have a congregation of people with different degrees of and appreciation for the ministry of the word. Sadly in today's culture, people are given to such complaints of boredom, even in the presence of some of the finest preaching that can be found. Moreover, even on this board, I am confident that there exists a wide range of "tastes" and "desires" (for lack of a better term) as to what people want and look for in a preacher. No one man with God-given gifts to preach is ever going to suit everyone in any given congregation today. That is a sad reality of the state of the Church today in our culture. You work and labor, as a pastor, to communicate effectively to everyone in your congregation, from the youngest to the oldest, to the most astute as well as to those who are less so. But there is always going to be a limitation on the gifts of any man, as well as spiritual and other limitations on the part of those to whom one preaches. For example, I remember one sermon I gave wherein I recited a poem that I thought was especially effective in driving home the point of the passage from which I was preaching. Afterwards, one lady who had never had anything good to say about the preaching before, commented to me how she loved to hear such poems recited from the pulpit. In other words, she communicated to me, as she never had before, that she had finally found something of interest in one of my sermons, and she was convinced that her words would be an encouragement to me, as well as communicating to me that she looked forward to more of the same in the future. In short, I felt some pity for her that such was required, from her perspective, to reach her own tastes and appreciation.

Those of us who are given to a regular pulpit ministry are so thrilled when we actually have the opportunity to hear someone else preach that we make every effort to profit from the ministry of the word of God. Pastor Winzer is right to comment that boredom has no place in the Church of Jesus Christ in any age. Even in good, sound Reformed churches today, we still face the consumer mentality, namely, that people come to church with the mindset, "what's in it for me? Are my needs going to be met? This is what I want," etc. I often wonder what ever happened to the corporate mindset, where people actually come to church to worship, offer their gifts and talents for the mutual building up of the body, and do so with the desire to give rather than to receive.

I grieve over the limitations of my own pulpit ministry, indeed mourn over the sad reality that every time I preach that I carry with me into the pulpit my own remaining sin and corruption, and would to God I could preach just once without such. But wonder of wonders, as Calvin put it...

Those who think the authority of the Word is dragged down by the baseness of the men called to teach it disclose their own ungratefulness. For, among the many excellent gifts with which God has adorned the human race, it is a singular privilege that he deigns to consecrate to himself the mouths and tongues of men in order that his voice may resound in them. Institutes of the Christian Religion, Vol. 2, ed. John T. McNeill and trans. Ford Lewis Battles, (Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, reprinted 1977), Book IV.i.5, p. 1018.

We live today in the midst of such ungratefulness, and rarely pause to offer to God our gratitude that many of us, in the world today, live in nations where we still have the freedom to attend and sit under the ministry of the Word of God, even when it comes from the meanest of preachers. People have the responsibility to find a church where the word of God is faithfully proclaimed, and then to thank God for it, rather than complain about their boredom. And if we cannot thank God for where we are, then let us praise Him for where we are not.

DTK

 

[timmopussycat]

One thing that is frustrating in such discussions is the false dilemma that is often presented:

1. Pastors need to be well equipped and adequately prepare that they might feed the congreation with the Word
or
2. People need to be attentive.

The answer is "Yes". Some are answering as if the Scriptures are completely silent on point 2 and get rankled when it is pointed out. This thread is asking about how layfolk should react, Yes? I'm reminded of a scene in Full Metal Jacket where the D.I. yells at the man for leaving his locker unsecured and tells him that "...if it wasn't for idiots like you there wouldn't be any thieves."

It is not novel that we are to prepare our hearts for the hearing of the Word:

Q. 117. How is the sabbath or the Lord’s day to be sanctified?
A. The sabbath or Lord’s day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day,624 not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful;625 and making it our delight to spend the whole time (except so much of it as is to be taken up in works of necessity and mercy626) in the public and private exercises of God’s worship:627 and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.628

The problem with the dialogue is that those who are pointing out that hearing needs to be conscientious are not denying that bad sermons exist but boredom is a state of mind. My reaction to bad sermons is typically not boredom but added concentration because, in some cases, I'm having to labor harder to ensure that I work through some of the dross and take things captive to the Word.

Like so many things, we can only be responsible for our own sin in a given context. If the Pastor has failed to do his diligence then we are not justified to forego our own responsibilities. Turning our minds off is not justified. It may be much easier to do and the poor preacher bears judgment for his inadequate feeding but we cannot righly condemn another for our own sin in any context.

Respondants need to stop putting premises into the presentations of others if they are talking about the responsibilities of one of the parties.

Thus, when a person notes that people should get plenty of rest before the Lord's Day so they aren't sleepy or that they pray and meditate on the Word in preparation for the Lord's Day, it's not "blame shifting" for bad preaching but simply noting each person's responsiblity to come prepared to Worship. Even the best preaching cannot fill in the gaps for personal sloth.

This discussion is odd because I cannot think of a single passage (nor has anyone offered any exegesis) that permits boredom in the House of the Lord.

In the OP my first point was that the problem of hearers experiencing bordom might be due to a problem in the hearer and that such problems must be addressed before any other action is taken. I know that in my own case, most of the time I experience boredom in sermons, the problem is in me. But not always and Charlie has given us a good discussion of the kinds of faulty preparation in the preacher that can lead to ineffective communication.

Let's combine my OP and Charlie's post to refine the question somewhat

What happens if, despite following the preparations you describe here and the ones I described in the OP, one is sitting under the preacher who consistently gives the kind of sermons Charlie has described for us? How then shall laymen respond if the preaching we receive is not helping us to grow in grace?

In such a case, the real problem is not my boredom as a hearer but a preacher's real deficiency. How should we best encourage such a preacher to address deficiencies in his sermon preparation or preaching?

 

[Pergamum]

So then is any measure of boredom sin?

And if one is faced with having to really concentrate hard and strain at a sermon to squeeze benefit from it, and one has other alternatives (such as other churches to go to), is it weakness or stewardship of time to divert one's Sundays to a church where the Word is preached in a way that benefits the listner without as great an effort on the part of the hearer?

 

[timmopussycat]

Even in good, sound Reformed churches today, we still face the consumer mentality, namely, that people come to church with the mindset, "what's in it for me? Are my needs going to be met? This is what I want," etc. I often wonder what ever happened to the corporate mindset, where people actually come to church to worship, offer their gifts and talents for the mutual building up of the body, and do so with the desire to give rather than to receive.

At the risk of sounding somewhat off the wall if not heterodox, I do not think that a measure of the attitude of "What's in it for me? and Are my needs going to be met" is necessarily a bad thing in situations where one is experiencing boredom under sermons due to preaching that is objectively bad. If, after searching one's heart and repenting from all sin revealed by the Spirit, and preparing for the sabbath with all diligence, one is still left with bad preaching as the cause, it is as legitimate ask "How is my need for the word preached going to be met" as it is for someone in a famine stricken country to ask "How is my need for physical food going to be met?"

 

[DTK]

I guess I never cease to be amazed that people who call a pastor to a church, or join such a church where he is already the pastor, then feel the need to educate the very one who usually is the only one present who has actually been educated for his job. I guess they feel that God has given him to be a part of some mission project of theirs.

That's not to say he cannot grow, learn, mature, etc. But if I were to go to someone else in the church to instruct them on how to do their job, they would be highly offended. Yet the same have no such restraints with respect to a pastor! "I know I can help him IF he'll just listen to me!!!"

DTK

 

[timmopussycat]

I guess I never cease to be amazed that people who call a pastor to a church, or join such a church where he is already the pastor, then feel the need to educate the very one who usually is the only one present who has actually been educated for his job. I guess they feel that God has given him to be a part of some mission project of theirs.

That's not to say he cannot grow, learn, mature, etc. But if I were to go to someone else in the church to instruct them on how to do their job, they would be highly offended. Yet the same have no such restraints with respect to a pastor! "I know I can help him IF he'll just listen to me!!!" DTK

Dear DTK

A congregation's growth in grace will, to some extent, be affected by its pastor's competence or lack therof. If one or more sheep can identify that they the preaching of the word is not helping them grow in grace, and have taken all biblical and confessional steps to ensure that their problem is not rooted in themselves but is due to objective deficiencies in the pastor, letting the pastor know the problem may help not only the pastor be more effective but may increase the church's growth in grace.

How else will the pastor know that he is ineffective feeding these members of his flock unless the sheep tell him?

 

[DTK]

How else will the pastor know that he is ineffective feeding these members of his flock unless the sheep tell him?

By all means, set him straight.

DTK

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Those of us who are given to a regular pulpit ministry are so thrilled when we actually have the opportunity to hear someone else preach that we make every effort to profit from the ministry of the word of God. Pastor Winzer is right to comment that boredom has no place in the Church of Jesus Christ in any age. Even in good, sound Reformed churches today, we still face the consumer mentality, namely, that people come to church with the mindset, "what's in it for me? Are my needs going to be met? This is what I want," etc. I often wonder what ever happened to the corporate mindset, where people actually come to church to worship, offer their gifts and talents for the mutual building up of the body, and do so with the desire to give rather than to receive.

Pastor King,

I think I want to frame your entire post. My own limited experience with ministry and teaching echoes so much the mixture of joy and sorrow. I looked back at some things that I did 4 years ago where I grilled a seasoned Pastor over some issues in his past and have since repented of my arrogant pride because I now see how hard the ministry is. I'm not saying that ministers are above reproach but my default setting is to be a joy to my Pastor.

I also believe you have struck upon what I believe is the very root of the issue and that is how we view our place within the Church. An in-depth study of Hebrews last year literally changed my world. I was transported out of a concern for myself into Biblical community where the entire Church strives together for holiness. The Pastor's heart in Hebrews comes out with constant exhortations for all of us to enter in. Let nobody fall behind.

The problem of wrong thinking then manifests itself in two ways:

1. The stronger members of the congregation may feel fed and are content that their personal needs are met

while...

2. The ignorant and going astray are falling behind but the stronger members assume that everybody is on their own program.

If we regain the sense, in our Churches, that we are commanded to press in then we can never be content that we're content and others are bored. Might the congregation labor, together, to help those that don't feel fed. Certainly the Pastor plays a role but it's not a Pastor-to-individual solution but a "striving together" solution.

Again, thank you for that excellent post. It's worthy of meditation about the work of ministry as I contemplate a potential future full time.

In the OP my first point was that the problem of hearers experiencing bordom might be due to a problem in the hearer and that such problems must be addressed before any other action is taken. I know that in my own case, most of the time I experience boredom in sermons, the problem is in me. But not always and Charlie has given us a good discussion of the kinds of faulty preparation in the preacher that can lead to ineffective communication.

Let's combine my OP and Charlie's post to refine the question somewhat

What happens if, despite following the preparations you describe here and the ones I described in the OP, one is sitting under the preacher who consistently gives the kind of sermons Charlie has described for us? How then shall laymen respond if the preaching we receive is not helping us to grow in grace?

In such a case, the real problem is not my boredom as a hearer but a preacher's real deficiency. How should we best encourage such a preacher to address deficiencies in his sermon preparation or preaching?

What precedes flows into this response.

If the Church is corporate then the solution ought to be corporate. I think we ought to be encouraging one another and working through the issues that can be handled in ways that don't lead to gossip and even handling issues of encouraging Brothers and Sisters where we can. I've personally received phone calls from Brothers and Sisters and will try to help them see a problem from another perspective rather than being a party to a complaint about the Preacher. I'll then hang up and call the Pastor and relate the concern and let him know about the concern in a way that isn't gossip but encourages that he might contemplate and get feedback about the way certain things that are going on in the Church are being received.

Thus, if teaching needs to improve there can, I think, be a corporate and Godly way that doesn't seek to simply grumble at a man that is in a hard position but seeks to obey the injunction that we make the task of being an overseer a joyful thing rather than always a burden. The burdens from spiritual attack will always be present but whatever we can do corporately to give battle together and encourage is our privilige to participate in.

 

[CharlieJ]

Helping the Pastor

To answer Timmo's question, I think that the first thing a congregation ought to do when it perceives a deficiency in the pulpit ministry is to search for possible hindrances. If the pastor is expected to teach Sunday school, preach two messages on Sunday, and give a talk or Bible study on Wednesday, he cannot possibly bring his A-game to every one of those activities. Some time and effort needs to be invested in having more than one person in the congregation apt to teach, so that the teaching ministry can be delegated in some ways.

Also, many churches don't take seriously "continuing education" for their pastors. As an unordained assistant to a pastor, I learned that there are multitudes of highly sensitive activities that a pastor engages in weekly (daily?). He needs both vacation time for refreshment and continuing education opportunities for sharpening. I've known pastors whose pulpit ministries have greatly benefited from a weekend preaching seminar, simply because it gave them certain tools or made them aware of imbalances in their presentation. Of course, pulpit ministry isn't the only area that continuing education benefits.

So, a congregation should implement delegation and education to help their pastor, rather than simply complain. If a pastor has a good heart, this should drastically improve the situation.