wturri78
Puritan Board Freshman
I've been interacting lately with some Eastern Orthodox on a different discussion forum, trying to learn how they managed to come to the conviction that theirs is the true, historical, apostolic church. I've received answers all over the map, but many come to the essential unity in worship and doctrine that they believe has characterized the east throughout the centuries (well, since Pentecost they'd say, of course). But they do raise some points that seem valid, although I know little of the history of Orthodoxy. A few things seem to stand out, although I could be entirely mistaken and quite ignorant of history:
1) The east doesn't seem to have changed a whole lot on doctrine since--well, ever. They seem to put all their confidence into the idea that they formally have only defined those things that were declared in the ecumenical councils. It seems individual theologies have varied widely within the broader context, but the major themes do seem to have a lot of continuity. (I would also say they've failed to build on the experience of the past, and seem to have this unshakable conviction that "older is truer.") Still, they never cooked up purgatory, limbo, papal infallibility, etc. Kudos to them.
2) They claim to still be using essentially the same liturgies (Chrysostom, Basil, a few others) that were in use 1600+ years ago, with only minor modifications. This doesn't prove anything other than consistency, but they don't seem to have been shredded by "worship wars."
3) They don't seem to have had internal schisms of the magnitude of the "Babylonian captivity," i.e. three popes and two councils all vying for control at the same time. I'd say their claim to unbroken succession sure sounds more believable than Rome's, though this still doesn't prove authenticity in doctrine.
4) They never had a reformation--for whatever reasons. But I do have to wonder if Luther would still have taken his stand in the absence of purgatory, indulgences, treasuries of merit, and the like. Would anyone have been martyered for translating Scripture into English, or for wanting to give the Mass in German?
5) They don't seem to have been nearly so affected by Enlightenment rationalism and materialism in their theologies, leading to...
6) They don't seem to have wild liberals overrunning their churches, leading to more and more denominations that try to hold to the original beliefs while the rest go on to ordain ministers who think God's existence is an open question.
All this, they would point out, despite the vast cultural differences between Greeks, Russians, Armenians, Syrians, etc. Even the self-ruled Orthodox church in America seems to have an essential continuity with the rest. From their perspective, with Catholics having a questionable heritage and Protestants in massive disarray, one could hardly blame them for dismissing Western religion entirely.
So my question to the historians here, especially those who have been Orthodox or who've interacted substantially with it, is this: is there really all this unity? Or are they as shredded by liberals, schisms, cultural conflicts, etc. as anyone else, yet nicely veiled behind the common storefront?
1) The east doesn't seem to have changed a whole lot on doctrine since--well, ever. They seem to put all their confidence into the idea that they formally have only defined those things that were declared in the ecumenical councils. It seems individual theologies have varied widely within the broader context, but the major themes do seem to have a lot of continuity. (I would also say they've failed to build on the experience of the past, and seem to have this unshakable conviction that "older is truer.") Still, they never cooked up purgatory, limbo, papal infallibility, etc. Kudos to them.
2) They claim to still be using essentially the same liturgies (Chrysostom, Basil, a few others) that were in use 1600+ years ago, with only minor modifications. This doesn't prove anything other than consistency, but they don't seem to have been shredded by "worship wars."
3) They don't seem to have had internal schisms of the magnitude of the "Babylonian captivity," i.e. three popes and two councils all vying for control at the same time. I'd say their claim to unbroken succession sure sounds more believable than Rome's, though this still doesn't prove authenticity in doctrine.
4) They never had a reformation--for whatever reasons. But I do have to wonder if Luther would still have taken his stand in the absence of purgatory, indulgences, treasuries of merit, and the like. Would anyone have been martyered for translating Scripture into English, or for wanting to give the Mass in German?
5) They don't seem to have been nearly so affected by Enlightenment rationalism and materialism in their theologies, leading to...
6) They don't seem to have wild liberals overrunning their churches, leading to more and more denominations that try to hold to the original beliefs while the rest go on to ordain ministers who think God's existence is an open question.
All this, they would point out, despite the vast cultural differences between Greeks, Russians, Armenians, Syrians, etc. Even the self-ruled Orthodox church in America seems to have an essential continuity with the rest. From their perspective, with Catholics having a questionable heritage and Protestants in massive disarray, one could hardly blame them for dismissing Western religion entirely.
So my question to the historians here, especially those who have been Orthodox or who've interacted substantially with it, is this: is there really all this unity? Or are they as shredded by liberals, schisms, cultural conflicts, etc. as anyone else, yet nicely veiled behind the common storefront?