Institute in Basic Life Principles

[JohnGill]

I was wondering how true this authority benefit was Randy. Those horns on your photo make you look quite a rebel

Then you should see me in my Confederate Kepi. View attachment 3343View attachment 3344

Anyone else think ZZ Top when they see these?

 

[Stephen L Smith]

Then you should see me in my Confederate Kepi.

Right that's it Randy. i shall get the application papers from the IBLP juvenile delinquent department and get you admitted there. Don't worry they have a "covenant family" focus with a "sprinkling" of truth, so you will feel right at home

 

[calgal]

It is interesting that 57% see the IBLP as a cult; 43% see it as a valid Christian Christian organisation. Some years ago I saw a full statement of faith of the IBLP and it was solidly evangelical. i cannot find this but see a summary at Statement of Faith | Institute in Basic Life Principles. Therefore would it be more appropriate to call them a sect than a cult?

Only if you call the LDS a sect not a cult based on their written documents (the LDS do have a Statement of Faith that looks really good at a quick glance).

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

It is interesting that 57% see the IBLP as a cult; 43% see it as a valid Christian Christian organisation. Some years ago I saw a full statement of faith of the IBLP and it was solidly evangelical. i cannot find this but see a summary at Statement of Faith | Institute in Basic Life Principles. Therefore would it be more appropriate to call them a sect than a cult?

Only if you call the LDS a sect not a cult based on their written documents (the LDS do have a Statement of Faith that looks really good at a quick glance).

That seems a bit off base to me. The foundations are definitely different. The theology is foundationally different. The doctrine of God is different. There are underlying factors on both sides that prove one knows the true grace of Christ and who he is. If you going to make this kind of statement then you might conclude that solid Statements of Faith are in fact not in conflict with the Mormon's full statement of their faith. Terminology is used different and defined differently. As you note "their written documents" prove what I am saying, if I am not mistaken.

 

[calgal]

It is interesting that 57% see the IBLP as a cult; 43% see it as a valid Christian Christian organisation. Some years ago I saw a full statement of faith of the IBLP and it was solidly evangelical. i cannot find this but see a summary at Statement of Faith | Institute in Basic Life Principles. Therefore would it be more appropriate to call them a sect than a cult?

Only if you call the LDS a sect not a cult based on their written documents (the LDS do have a Statement of Faith that looks really good at a quick glance).

That seems a bit off base to me. The foundations are definitely different. The theology is foundationally different. The doctrine of God is different. There are underlying factors on both sides that prove one knows the true grace of Christ and who he is. If you going to make this kind of statement then you might conclude that solid Statements of Faith are in fact not in conflict with the Mormon's full statement of their faith. Terminology is used different and defined differently. As you note "their written documents" prove what I am saying, if I am not mistaken.

Actually Randy, it is not so off base.The LDS Articles of Faith (I used statement not article) could have come from any random Arminian church. The talk about prophets and prophecy is a lot like the Penecostal talk. Same applies to Gothard and Co. They add rules the Lord never wrote and enforce obedience to a man made set of "standards."

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Actually Randy, it is not so off base.The LDS Articles of Faith (I used statement not article) could have come from any random Arminian church. The talk about prophets and prophecy is a lot like the Penecostal talk. Same applies to Gothard and Co. They add rules the Lord never wrote and enforce obedience to a man made set of "standards."

But Gail you said more than that. And you were correct in doing so.

"based on their written documents"

This was stated upon foundational truths. They are not the same God's comparatively nor do they even remotely come close doctrinally concerning eternal salvation and justification by faith alone. This is so far apart from apples and oranges even. It is like steak and oranges. They aren't even of the same kind.

 

[Shawn Mathis]

"I know so many Calvinists who had to detox from their early Gothard influences. I would avoid his legalism like the plague."

I'm one who detoxed from this legalistic organization. It along with my own charismatic church drove me toward woe and sorrow. Which God used to reveal his sovereign grace. I looked into Gothard a while back when I ran across it in homeschooling circles (the murderer Matthew Murray ranted about Gothard's legalism) with even a homeschooling leader defending him. He denies grace in the OT. He has charistmatic overtones including the rhema-word errors of Pentacostals. One book, endorsed by Adams, explains some of his more shaddier practices and various exotic and scary "interpretations" and "applications": A Matter of Basic Principles

Does he say anything good? As one person put it: is it worth digging into a pile of (menure) to find the dollar coin?

 

[christiana]

What is the reason and purpose for any parachurch organization and is there a true need for such if your home church is teaching the whole counsel of God? Many times a parachurch organization will add confusion and disloyalty to the mix when the home church if supported with the same enthusiasm would draw the family of God together and help them to resist any temptation of attending and/or supporting any other body of teaching, or so it seems to me. Think of all the other similar organizations which folk flock to for seminars, conventions and extra teaching and one must decide and discern which if any are truly beneficial over the long haul. Our pastor in the past did preach against any parachurch group and encouraged all to show loyalty to their own church body and teaching. I see this was discussed in a previous post:
http://www.puritanboard.com/f47/para-church-organizations-biblical-should-we-support-them-36013/

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

I missed the manure being in confessional churches I guess. I am not advocating everything that has happened in you alls pentecostal circles. But then again I wouldn't advocate anything in them probably except the doctrine of the Trinity if they even had one. And I had troubles with some of the Advanced Material. I am most grateful I didn't experience what you guys did and I am most grateful God didn't put me through the aberrations of the pentecostalism and legalism that you guys are reporting.

 

[JBaldwin]

I lived and worked at the IBYC headquarters in the early 1980s, and I knew Bill Gothard and his extended family personally. The organization is very cult-like. They do not have a real understanding of the grace of God. It is also very works-based. In short, "Run Away, Run Away!"

 

[Stephen L Smith]

I knew Bill Gothard

How would you describe Gothard's character? Would you regard him as a Christian?

The organization is very cult-like.

Could you expand on this?

 

[JBaldwin]

I knew Bill Gothard

How would you describe Gothard's character? Would you regard him as a Christian?

The organization is very cult-like.

Could you expand on this?

I am not in a position, especially since it's been so many years since I've even spoken to Bill Gothard, to say whether he is a christian or not. He professes to know Jesus, and he lives by a very high moral code. Bill communicated to the staff on more than one occasion, as he did in his seminars, that if you wanted to have a good life, you have to follow good Biblical principles. While this is true, there seemed increasingly among the staff the idea that if you did not live by the principles spelled out in the seminars, there was something wrong with you. Many of the principles which Bill taught were based on one-liners from the OT that were taken out of context. As I look back on it, and as I saw after I left, this was nothing more than a works-based sanctification.

As far as the group being cult-like, my experience (and the experience of others I know) was that once you were "in", it was difficult to leave. While I personally left of my own free will, I was ostracised by the organization.

 

[Stephen L Smith]

As far as the group being cult-like, my experience (and the experience of others I know) was that once you were "in", it was difficult to leave. While I personally left of my own free will, I was ostracised by the organization.

Thanks for the helpful comments. I was attracted to the IBLP as a teenager and an Arminian. The impression I got was they promoted God fearing principles and God fearing, mature, wise, kind and strong families - a strong attraction for a young man like myself who did not come from a stable family. Over time, however, I found the IBLP families not to be as spiritually mature as I first thought. Their approach to sanctification is formula based and forgets it is a life-long process. The new book put out on John Owen's 3 works, Overcoming sin and temptation [Crossway books], is far more helpful.

 

[Herald]

As far as the group being cult-like, my experience (and the experience of others I know) was that once you were "in", it was difficult to leave. While I personally left of my own free will, I was ostracised by the organization.

Thanks for the helpful comments. I was attracted to the IBLP as a teenager and an Arminian. The impression I got was they promoted God fearing principles and God fearing, mature, wise, kind and strong families - a strong attraction for a young man like myself who did not come from a stable family. Over time, however, I found the IBLP families not to be as spiritually mature as I first thought. Their approach to sanctification is formula based and forgets it is a life-long process. The new book put out on John Owen's 3 works, Overcoming sin and temptation [Crossway books], is far more helpful.

Stephen, any movement that is "formula based" runs this risk. Simply put, the Christian life is not easily compartmentslized.

Sent from my most excellent Galaxy S III

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

I have a question, does this look formula based?

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Or how about this one?

Eph 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
Eph 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise)
Eph 6:3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

Some might consider these to be formula based.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation...
Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

One of the problems here is that some of these things are prescriptive.

Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
Php 4:9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him...
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

BTW, these are all things you will learn at IYBC. Yes, John Owen is very good and I would highly recommend him. We are called to struggle with sin and mortify our lusts. It is a work that is very hard and it does not justify us. But it is a command so that we can work out our salvation (sanctification). Many Christians are opposed to this kind of teaching because they like their sin more than they like God. I know I am one. But I am not willing to deny the truth as I need a place to keep returning to. Repentance demands my telling the truth.

 

[Stephen L Smith]

I have a question, does this look formula based?

Randy, I am sure all true Christians believe ALL the precepts of scripture are to be obeyed. The question is: is IBLP biblically balanced enough to be a ministry one can recommend to Christians to aid in their spiritual growth, or is it seriously imbalanced so that appropriate warnings about this ministry are appropriate?

And I do speak as one who is cautious about many aspects of my Christian life.

 

[Stephen L Smith]

They do not have a real understanding of the grace of God.

Randy, this is very telling - written by someone who has seen inside the organisation.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Gothard: The man and his ministry : an evaluation: Wilfred Bockelman: 9780916608071: Amazon.com: Books

So have I Stephen. And I agree that there are problems. I have read the books. Even the one I link to above. This was started off with whether or not these people should be considered a Cult. In that declaration I would conclude by implication that that might mean non-Christian. I think that maybe some should be careful here concerning that matter. And some should be cautious about what they are declaring concerning the grace of God and how it is understood.

If you read the reviews of the books Shawn and I link to they kind of look like the pole here. You will see the authors have a bias. Some pointed bias I might add. Yet there are problems and I have readily admitted that. But some of the judgment here is incorrect in my estimation. And it goes too far. Like J. Baldwin, I have some connectivity also. And I confronted some things that I saw and experienced.

Concerning the recovery stuff... There are groups out there who have also detoxed from Reformational Theology. So the detox situation is nil to me. Just an FYI.