Is Hitler in heaven?

[Rich Koster]

During a recent Bible study I pressed a nice older lady with a question. I asked her "If Hitler came to faith in Christ in his bunker, would he be with Christ in heaven?" She answered to the tune of someone like that Hitler would never be in heaven because of what he did. I know that sometimes I push the extremes to make a point, and replied " but Paul persecuted and killed Christians before he came to faith". Do you think shock extremes like that are effective tools for prying self righteous prejudices away from people or it just puts them on the defense?

 

[Skyler]

During a recent Bible study I pressed a nice older lady with a question. I asked her "If Hitler came to faith in Christ in his bunker, would he be with Christ in heaven?" She answered to the tune of someone like that Hitler would never be in heaven because of what he did. I know that sometimes I push the extremes to make a point, and replied " but Paul persecuted and killed Christians before he came to faith". Do you think shock extremes like that are effective tools for prying self righteous prejudices away from people or it just puts them on the defense?

I think that it depends on how God uses it.

Depending on whether God is softening or hardening that person's heart, it could have either effect.

 

[OPC'n]

Maybe, but falling hard on one's face seems to do the job quite nicely... experienced it.

 

[PresbyDane]

Well I do not think so if you want an honest and thoughtful answer, you will most likely hit the emotional nerve with people, espessially the elder who still remember.
I think you can get your point across in other ways, this is more likely to dig trenches than build bridges

 

[Rich Koster]

During a recent Bible study I pressed a nice older lady with a question. I asked her "If Hitler came to faith in Christ in his bunker, would he be with Christ in heaven?" She answered to the tune of someone like that Hitler would never be in heaven because of what he did. I know that sometimes I push the extremes to make a point, and replied " but Paul persecuted and killed Christians before he came to faith". Do you think shock extremes like that are effective tools for prying self righteous prejudices away from people or it just puts them on the defense?

I think that it depends on how God uses it.

Depending on whether God is softening or hardening that person's heart, it could have either effect.

True, but why would a person keep coming to a Bible study that is being hardened?

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

Just ask her if it would be any more of a miracle for God to save Hitler than for God to save her. That wouldn't be too "shocking" and would force her to confront her beliefs about the nature of her own depravity.

 

[Theognome]

True, but why would a person keep coming to a Bible study that is being hardened?

Know thy enemy, as Sun Tsu would say.

Using Hitler, Stalin or such other as an extreme case is exactly what you call it- shock value. It is dramatic, but drama of that particular ilk isn't reflected in Scripture. The thief on the cross, Paul or other such examples I think are more appropriate.

Theognome

 

[Kim G]

I think that rather than deal with hypotheticals ("Jack the Ripper could be in heaven if . . .," "Saddam Hussein could be in heaven if . . ."), I would deal with truths. Paul persecuted and killed Christians before the Lord called him. David was a murderer and adulterer. Rahab was a harlot. Yet we know that they are in heaven. That should work more effectively than bringing up the name of one of the most hated men in the world and shocking your students by discussing his hypothetical conversion.

Just my 2 cents.

Edit:
Theognome said it before I could finish typing.

Using Hitler, Stalin or such other as an extreme case is exactly what you call it- shock value. It is dramatic, but drama of that particular ilk isn't reflected in Scripture. The thief on the cross, Paul or other such examples I think are more appropriate.

 

[PresbyDane]

with you theognome

 

[Rich Koster]

OK y'all, it may be extreme. Now why I used the extreme. There seems to be a wrong understanding of the Gospel with some people. They think Jesus only saves nice people who will sit there and listen to you talk to them about Jesus over a cup of tea or people who cry over what they did in jail. This prevents people from talking to "undesirables" in the community. I try to confront that mentality rather than let it spread.

 

[CharlieJ]

I think it's a great question. It uses the extreme to clearly focus on the issue at hand. Can you think of yourself as that undeserving? Based on how the people around responded, I would say that many of Jesus' statements were "shock value." Think of the good Samaritan, or the unrighteous tenants, or even the prodigal son in the face of the Pharisees. The prophets too said some pretty grisly things. Think of the actual meaning of Isaiah's "filthy rags." I don't think the Hitler example is nearly as strong as some biblical language.

 

[Iconoclast]

Keep a few verses like these handy;

31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

17And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit;

18And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.

19He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.

20And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.

21And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.

22And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.

23Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

24And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

25When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.

26And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.

27But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.

 

[jambo]

I would ask something to the effect of "It doesn't matter whether Hitler will be in heaven or not, but will you be there?"

 

[a mere housewife]

OK y'all, it may be extreme. Now why I used the extreme. There seems to be a wrong understanding of the Gospel with some people. They think Jesus only saves nice people who will sit there and listen to you talk to them about Jesus over a cup of tea or people who cry over what they did in jail. This prevents people from talking to "undesirables" in the community. I try to confront that mentality rather than let it spread.

I'm glad that you do this Mr. Koster, but personally I think that if Hitler had actually made a public profession of repentance before his death, his case would be a better discussion point. When a man has publicly repented and Christians can see some evidence of the grace of God (at least in crying for salvation from sins), self righteousness comes more to the fore.

But since Hitler evidenced no such grace the reaction against him is a reaction against what is known of him: and though we don't know everything, a hypothetical question cannot change our reactions to the known. I think that our generally nonexistent longing to see Hitler in eternal bliss is not merely a matter of self righteousness but a dim idea of true righteousness and justice. Personally I think if one is going to use shock value in this way it would be good to read about the little children in concentration camps who were hung up and whipped, who had to hang for hours in pain, passing in and out of consciousness and torture: ladies who drowned their little ones in the sewers, to keep them from crying. These are facts, and the shock of them actually happened to real people. I think there is a danger when one throws hypotheticals around for shock, not just of causing people to close their ears against the real truths you are trying to present; but of further deadening the nerves of people who have little reaction to what has actually happened.

I agree with others that this kind of shock probably doesn't make it to most people's heads because the emotional reaction is so strong, and think there is a better way to shock self righteous *thoughts*. This is like hitting people with an emotional sledgehammer: you can't expect them to hear what you're saying. I think personally that to help people listen to and understand the worthy point you are trying to make about self righteousness, the advice given in this thread by Bill and Kim is sound. If you show them the truth from Scripture and from what is known first, and help them to accept facts: then they will be able to confess to hypotheticals -- that if Christ paid the penalty for Hitler's sins, Hitler will be in Heaven and it will be as just and merciful as our being there.

 

[Turtle]

During a recent Bible study I pressed a nice older lady with a question. I asked her "If Hitler came to faith in Christ in his bunker, would he be with Christ in heaven?" She answered to the tune of someone like that Hitler would never be in heaven because of what he did. I know that sometimes I push the extremes to make a point, and replied " but Paul persecuted and killed Christians before he came to faith". Do you think shock extremes like that are effective tools for prying self righteous prejudices away from people or it just puts them on the defense?

In Luke 4:17 - 29 Jesus used a very effective way to pry self-righteousness out of the listeners. It was so effective that they sought to kill Him, though they had just "wondered at His gracious words" (v. 22).

In the days of Elijah there were many widows in Israel and many lepers in Israel too. But a prophet was sent to the gentiles and delivered them. In other words His message to them was, "If you don't see yourself as not one whit better than the gentiles, then I have nothing for you."

So I guess I can't find fault in what you were aiming at.

 

[brianeschen]

You mean this isn't a poll?

 

[the Internet]

The value of shock may be overrated, except when used in particular contexts – maybe Christian witness or Bible Study groups are amenable, but not necessarily the best contexts.

“Do you think God can’t save you? Look, before I was saved I used to XXX [something really ghastly] and YYY [something else equally repugnant]. He saved me … so He can save you!!”

The fault with my shocking revelation is that the focus is on the wrong object. He that breaks even the least of these is guilty of them all. So what if it’s a mega-sin or a … well, another mega-sin I guess [after adjusting the perspective to align with Scripture]. Besides, who cares what I used to do; isn’t the real point what He has done for me? [Footnote: another that is just so tired of the me-centric twaddle being peddled as hymns and choruses in Christian Churches].

The example of Hitler, if presented to a dear old soul who is yet lost for eternity, is likely to focus her thinking on the acts of Hitler, and possibly cause anger and frustration, at the expense of a) the beauty of the redeeming Christ, b) the over-arching need for her to reflect on her own sin [which will never match the horrors of Hitler in secular understanding], and c) the great gulf created by just one misdemeanor.

Now, where is my cranial electrotherapy stimulation device?

 

[Rich Koster]

For the early Church, Saul of Tarsus would be considered a well known cruel monster. However, when they see him as Paul the apostle , this amazes them. My hope and intent is for people to see the power of Christ and his ability to transform the wickedest person you could imagine. Some of the earlier posts on this thread drift towards my point. Hold up a mirror and look at the worst sinner YOU will ever know.

 

[TimV]

Hitler showed more signs of repentance before the end than, say, Churchill or Eisenhower. But I can't think of any of the main leaders of WW2 who made a known credible profession of faith.

 

[Rich Koster]

Hitler showed more signs of repentance before the end than, say, Churchill or Eisenhower. But I can't think of any of the main leaders of WW2 who made a known credible profession of faith.

I'm not saying he did, the point was that Christ can save ANYONE he choses.

 

[TimV]

I'm not saying he did, the point was that Christ can save ANYONE he choses.

I realize you're saying that. I'm just pointing out another facet of human nature, and that's making the other guy worse than you so as to make yourself look better.