Is joy of the essence of faith?

[InSlaveryToChrist]

The first time I heard such a thing was from John Piper many years ago in his book on Christian Hedonism. I don't want to discuss John Piper or his other faulty conclusions concerning faith and/or assurance of faith.

Now, I do believe it is wrong to disregard joy as the essence of faith by simply saying that joy, then, must precede faith (this is a strawman argument that I adopted to my own theology from a certain pastor). If it were the case, it would be clear that a God-hating person (regenerate or not), who is yet to practise faith in Christ (unjustified) and sees himself/herself under the wrath of God, cannot have joy in God before he/she has faith in Christ and has the knowledge of God. However, to say that joy precedes faith means it is separate from faith and not of the essence of faith.

Historic Reformed theology would have us believe faith consists of three elements: knowledge, assent and trust. It would make sense to myself that joy takes place already after you have knowledge. Isn't the joy of God an expression of our knowledge of God? What else could it be? I believe by "knowledge" here is meant divine knowledge, that is, the mind's enlightement by the Holy Spirit. I don't see how joy could require anything else for it to exist.

 

[Leslie]

Please, can you clarify, rewrite your second paragraph? I find it confusing. The subject is intriguing, something that I've thought about a lot, without any conclusion.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

Please, can you clarify, rewrite your second paragraph? I find it confusing. The subject is intriguing, something that I've thought about a lot, without any conclusion.

Just a sec.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Samuel, I think the essence of our faith is bound up with the object of our faith, who is Jesus. Perhaps love – which would include trust – is the essence of that which enables us to cleave to Him. As He has made us alive to Himself by regeneration this experience of Him is His gift to us. Alexander Nisbet, who wrote a commentary on 1st & 2nd Peter, said, “it [is] the nature of true faith to make the thing it closes with present to the soul."

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

Maybe to further clarify second paragraph. My understanding is that regeneration softens a person's heart toward God (so that he/she is no longer hateful toward God), but that faith and repentance are not of the essence of regeneration. I believe they follow from regeneration. But this understanding does make me question my definition of regeneration. If regeneration does not include faith and repentance, then what is it? How exactly is a person's heart softened toward God? Must not there be knowledge of God WHICH IS OF THE ESSENCE OF FAITH? I'm so confused. =)

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

Samuel, I think the essence of our faith is bound up with the object of our faith, who is Jesus. Perhaps love – which would include trust – is the essence of that which enables us to cleave to Him. As He has made us alive to Himself by regeneration this experience of Him is His gift to us. Alexander Nisbet, who wrote a commentary on 1st & 2nd Peter, said, “it [is] the nature of true faith to make the thing it closes with present to the soul."

So, would you say love is of the essence of faith? I think faith leads to love, but the Bible does say "faith which worketh by love" (Gal. 5:6). I don't know what to make of that...

 

[Leslie]

Regeneration does not, I believe, necessarily involve knowledge. Someone involved in a false religion or atheism might suddenly question his beliefs, might say, "God if You are out there somewhere, I want to know You. Please show me the path to you." That sentiment would be the product of inner regeneration, a change of heart toward God, and it does not imply any theological knowledge. But it seems that knowledge is the prerequisite of faith. Faith is belief in something.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

You seem to be thinking of faith as the ground of all evangelical fruit and obedience. It is not faith itself, properly speaking, that is the root but it is Christ. When you look at how the WCF is laid out, it develops naturally from Covenant to Christ and then to everything that flows from that. This paragraph from Chapter VIII is helpful:

VIII. To all those for whom Christ has purchased redemption, He does certainly and effectually apply and communicate the same;39 making intercession for them,40 and revealing unto them, in and by the word, the mysteries of salvation;41 effectually persuading them by His Spirit to believe and obey, and governing their hearts by His word and Spirit;42 overcoming all their enemies by His almighty power and wisdom, in such manner, and ways, as are most consonant to His wonderful and unsearchable dispensation.43

Read Scirpture prooftexts here

Joy can be thought of as a fruit that flows out of abiding in the Vine. It can be said to follow faith because faith is the instrument by which we lay hold of Christ after we have repented of our sins. Some have said that Faith looks to the past (trusting in what Christ has accomplished), Hope looks to the future (Trusting in what Christ has promised that we currently possess as a downpayment) and love lives in the present united to Christ as He sanctifies us. I'm not sure that's completely accurate but it helps to put faith in perspective as something not in itself producing things but one of many gifts that Christ has procured for His own.

Now the question is: is joy essential to salvation? By here I mean salvation encompassed in what Christ has done (past), what He is doing (present), and what will be done (future). I think it is. It's the testimony of the Saints through the ages - especially the martyrs who have feared not those who have power over their bodies but Him who has power over body and soul. I think, fundamentally, joy is the knowledge that we are at peace with God. I don't know how a man can have faith in Christ, on the one hand, and not have joy that he has peace with God on the other.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

You seem to be thinking of faith as the ground of all evangelical fruit and obedience.

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. I've only been addressing the relationship between faith, joy and love. My understanding is that joy is of the essence of faith, since knowledge of God is of the essence of faith and is necessary to joy. Also, if "faith worketh by love" is to be taken at face value, it means faith is dependent on love, and so love is either of the essence of faith or faith flows from love. I think the latter option wouldn't make any sense since the knowledge of God in faith is necessary to love.

It is not faith itself, properly speaking, that is the root but it is Christ. When you look at how the WCF is laid out, it develops naturally from Covenant to Christ and then to everything that flows from that. This paragraph from Chapter VIII is helpful:

VIII. To all those for whom Christ has purchased redemption, He does certainly and effectually apply and communicate the same;39 making intercession for them,40 and revealing unto them, in and by the word, the mysteries of salvation;41 effectually persuading them by His Spirit to believe and obey, and governing their hearts by His word and Spirit;42 overcoming all their enemies by His almighty power and wisdom, in such manner, and ways, as are most consonant to His wonderful and unsearchable dispensation.43

Read Scirpture prooftexts here

Joy can be thought of as a fruit that flows out of abiding in the Vine. It can be said to follow faith because faith is the instrument by which we lay hold of Christ after we have repented of our sins. Some have said that Faith looks to the past (trusting in what Christ has accomplished), Hope looks to the future (Trusting in what Christ has promised that we currently possess as a downpayment) and love lives in the present united to Christ as He sanctifies us. I'm not sure that's completely accurate but it helps to put faith in perspective as something not in itself producing things but one of many gifts that Christ has procured for His own.

So, you are saying Christ is applying our graces in a certain order, but not in a way that makes them dependent on each other. He grants us joy when we believe in Him, but not because we believe in Him, but because it's His good pleasure to apply graces in this order. Is this what you're saying?[/QUOTE]

Now the question is: is joy essential to salvation? By here I mean salvation encompassed in what Christ has done (past), what He is doing (present), and what will be done (future). I think it is. It's the testimony of the Saints through the ages - especially the martyrs who have feared not those who have power over their bodies but Him who has power over body and soul. I think, fundamentally, joy is the knowledge that we are at peace with God. I don't know how a man can have faith in Christ, on the one hand, and not have joy that he has peace with God on the other.

This I agree with 100%.

 

[Contra_Mundum]

Ps.30:5 "For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning."

The feeling or experience of joy may be delayed for many reasons, including persecution or other sources of temporal grief.

Joy is also a fruit of the Spirit, Gal.5:22, so in this sense is an inalienable aspect of the believer's life; it is a state or condition rather than a feeling or emotion, which is then accessible to even the grieving or troubled saint on the earth.

Mt.25:21,23 speak of the reward of entering into "the joy of your Lord." In Christ's complacency and happiness (which includes the people for whom he died) there are no bounds, so to enter therein is to enter into infinite bliss of his joy in embracing you. This is beyond all earthly experience or imagination of similar experiences.

Neh.8:10, "The joy of the LORD is your strength." Zeph.3:17, "The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing."

Both these texts speak to the reality that our best joy is found in our God's joy in his work for and in us. The believer will be joyful, regardless of his temporal happiness at any moment, when he rests in the truth that he is the Lord's own. Yes, even if he staggers through the valley of the shadow of death and the valley of tears (Ps.23:4; 84:6).

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

Ps.30:5 "For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning."

The feeling or experience of joy may be delayed for many reasons, including persecution or other sources of temporal grief.

Joy is also a fruit of the Spirit, Gal.5:22, so in this sense is an inalienable aspect of the believer's life; it is a state or condition rather than a feeling or emotion, which is then accessible to even the grieving or troubled saint on the earth.

Mt.25:21,23 speak of the reward of entering into "the joy of your Lord." In Christ's complacency and happiness (which includes the people for whom he died) there are no bounds, so to enter therein is to enter into infinite bliss of his joy in embracing you. This is beyond all earthly experience or imagination of similar experiences.

Neh.8:10, "The joy of the LORD is your strength." Zeph.3:17, "The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing."

Both these texts speak to the reality that our best joy is found in our God's joy in his work for and in us. The believer will be joyful, regardless of his temporal happiness at any moment, when he rests in the truth that he is the Lord's own. Yes, even if he staggers through the valley of the shadow of death and the valley of tears (Ps.23:4; 84:6).

So... Is joy of the essence of faith, or does it simply follow from faith? I'm sorry (maybe I'm just tired), but I don't see how the above answers to my questions whatsoever.

 

[OPC'n]

All i say here might be completely wrong but I'll give it a stab.

I think one has to understand the Biblical meaning of essence in connection with faith first.

Starting with a definition of essence, we can easily find that "essence" is derived from a Greek noun (fu,sij, phusis), meaning substance or inner nature.

Next John Calvin defines faith as "A firm and certain knowledge of God's benevolence towards us,
found upon the truth of the freely given promise in Christ,
both revealed to our minds
and sealed upon our hearts
through the Holy Spirit."--Institutes, book 3

A necessary definition would be that of Godly joy. One can have joy in sinning, but as we know it's not a Godly joy. Godly joy is finding joy in furthering God's kingdom no matter the hardship to the believer. Even the primary object of our joy in newly received salvation is the knowledge that we will be used as vessels for God's use to further His kingdom…. the secondary object our joy being the forgiveness of sins.

If one puts these three definitions together, we find that joy isn't anymore the essence of faith than any of the the other fruits of the Holy Spirit, and therefore, I believe it flows from faith as does the rest of the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

If your ultimate question is thus "If i have no or little joy, does it mean i have no or little faith?", I believe one must honestly ask himself this: does a person find true joy in knowing that even if he were cast into hell, and yet all he did for God by God's hand furthered God's kingdom would it bring the greatest joy to his heart just knowing God's will was done. Or do you find joy in God only because of what God can do for you? Our joy diminishes when we desire our own way no matter how "Godly" our way seems to us. But salvific faith never diminshes no matter how many doubts we have along our journey. Because we are not yet perfect the joy God puts in our hearts does and will continue to wax and wane as does every other fruit of the Holy Spirit until we reach His feet.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

All i say here might be completely wrong but I'll give it a stab.

I think one has to understand the Biblical meaning of essence in connection with faith first.

Starting with a definition of essence, we can easily find that "essence" is derived from a Greek noun (fu,sij, phusis), meaning substance or inner nature.

Next John Calvin defines faith as "A firm and certain knowledge of God's benevolence towards us,
found upon the truth of the freely given promise in Christ,
both revealed to our minds
and sealed upon our hearts
through the Holy Spirit."--Institutes, book 3

A necessary definition would be that of Godly joy. One can have joy in sinning, but as we know it's not a Godly joy. Godly joy is finding joy in furthering God's kingdom no matter the hardship to the believer. Even the primary object of our joy in newly received salvation is the knowledge that we will be used as vessels for God's use to further His kingdom…. the secondary object our joy being the forgiveness of sins.

If one puts these three definitions together, we find that joy isn't anymore the essence of faith than any of the the other fruits of the Holy Spirit, and therefore, I believe it flows from faith as does the rest of the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

I might agree with everything you just said, except the word "flow" (which I would replace with follow), because it indicates faith is the source of the other fruits of the Holy Spirit, whereas (if I understood him right) Rich above would have us believe Christ is the only source of spiritual fruit, applying them in a set order (first faith, then joy).

If your ultimate question is thus "If i have no or little joy, does it mean i have no or little faith?", I believe one must honestly ask himself this: does a person find true joy in knowing that even if he were cast into hell, and yet all he did for God by God's hand furthered God's kingdom would it bring the greatest joy to his heart just knowing God's will was done. Or do you find joy in God only because of what God can do for you? Our joy diminishes when we desire our own way no matter how "Godly" our way seems to us. But salvific faith never diminshes no matter how many doubts we have along our journey. Because we are not yet perfect the joy God puts in our hearts does and will continue to wax and wane as does every other fruit of the Holy Spirit until we reach His feet.

I understand and sincerely appreciate your concern for my soul, and so I do in regards to Rev. Buchanan's response above, but this is clearly off-topic and may be a violation of the forum rules (I don't know). Well, of course I can just ignore what you said in the final paragraph (or can I?). I would greatly appreciate sticking to my original questions, directly answering them, then explaining yourself, and not jump into conclusions (again, I don't want to come off as mean; I sincerely appreciate the concern and time and love you've invested in your responses, but I don't see how they help me in my original goal of this thread).

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

Other questions of mine that emerged in this thread were the following:

2. Are repentance and faith of the essence of regeneration?

3. Is knowledge of God of the essence of regeneration (knowledge of God IS of the essence of faith. Therefore, if faith is of the essence of regeneration, so is knowledge of God)?

4. Is love of the essence of faith, OR does faith follow from love (doesn't make any sense), OR should we just take "faith which worketh by love" (Gal. 5:6) to mean "faith which expresses itself through love (as some Bible versions do)?

 

[Peairtach]

Other questions of mine that emerged in this thread were the following:

2. Are repentance and faith of the essence of regeneration?

3. Is knowledge of God of the essence of regeneration (knowledge of God IS of the essence of faith. Therefore, if faith is of the essence of regeneration, so is knowledge of God)?

4. Is love of the essence of faith, OR does faith follow from love (doesn't make any sense), OR should we just take "faith which worketh by love" (Gal. 5:6) to mean "faith which expresses itself through love (as some Bible versions do)?

Joy isn't of the essence of faith if you mean, Do people with saving faith always feel joyful? They always have a source of joy that is independent of this world.

True repentance and faith are always the immediate fruits of regeneration.

All human beings have a knowledge of God. Those who are regenerated - saving faith always accompanies regeneration - know Him also as Saviour, and not just as estranged Creator, Father, Lawgiver and Judge.

The graces of love to God and love to Man as made in God's Image, and hope in God's peomises, always accompany regeneration and faith.

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[InSlaveryToChrist]

Other questions of mine that emerged in this thread were the following:

2. Are repentance and faith of the essence of regeneration?

3. Is knowledge of God of the essence of regeneration (knowledge of God IS of the essence of faith. Therefore, if faith is of the essence of regeneration, so is knowledge of God)?

4. Is love of the essence of faith, OR does faith follow from love (doesn't make any sense), OR should we just take "faith which worketh by love" (Gal. 5:6) to mean "faith which expresses itself through love (as some Bible versions do)?

Joy isn't of the essence of faith if you mean, Do people with saving faith always feel joyful? I DON'T. They always have a source of joy that is independent of this world. So, you say joy IS of the essence of faith?

True repentance and faith are always the immediate fruits of regeneration. I agree. I had to relearn this from the WCF. Since repentance and faith are not separate, but two aspects of one great change, there is no such thing as a regenerate person seeking God in repentance, yet to believe in Christ. Questions 2. and 3. solved.

All human beings have a knowledge of God. Those who are regenerated - saving faith always accompanies regeneration - know Him also as Saviour, and not just as estranged Creator, Father, Lawgiver and Judge.

The graces of love to God and love to Man as made in God's Image, and hope in God's peomises, always accompany regeneration and faith. Unfortunately, my question does not question the fact that love accompanies faith (this should be clear from my earlier posts). It is clear as day. What I wanted to know is whether love is of the essence of faith, BUT I've already convinced through Scripture that cannot be the case. In light of its context Gal. 5:6 clearly means that love is the expression of our faith. The measure of our faith is most clearly manifested in our love toward God and creation. Therefore, love follows faith. Question 4. solved.

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.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

Lastly, I would like Rich to confirm whether I understood him right or not in regards to Christ's application of the graces of the Spirit (post #9). Take your time.

 

[Matthew Willard Lankford]

"If his word be believed, and, by believing, the conscience finds peace, and the heart joy: these are joy and peace in believing. They come from believing; are its effects; and no more enter into the essence of faith than comfortable feelings do into the essence of a man. He is as truly a man, when miserable, as he is when comfortable."~William Romaine, The Walk of Faith

"Now I come to my text [1 Peter 1:8].The words contains the essence of Christianity or godliness, the constituent parts of it are Faith and Love, the necessary consequence, are obedience evangelical, and joy unspeakable. Faith in Jesus is the great command of the Gospel, [John ?] 'Tis the works of God, John 6:29. This is that work, Love is the great command of the Law, Matthew, 22:36. Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy soul; Faith acts upon Jesus and sets Love on work, love desires after him and delights in him, and sets obedience on work, divine comfort flows in proportionably, in this is the formal nature of Christianity!"~Christopher Fowler, How a Christian may get such a faith that is not only saving but comfortable and joyful at present?

"What shall I say of faith? It is the bond of union; the instrument of justification; the spring of spiritual peace and joy; the means of spiritual life and subsistence; and therefore the great scope and drift of the gospel; which aims at and presseth nothing more than to bring men and women to believe."~John Flavel, The Method of Grace

 

[OPC'n]

To clarify my statement of "If your ultimate question is thus…." and to quit myself of seemingly danger of breaking a PB rule, I put forth that my statement was that of generalization and not particular to yourself.

You seemed to have a question as to wether joy was the essence of faith joining the two in dependence of each other. My statement was meant to mean that, although God's joy that He gives to His ppl never waivers in it's perfection, it can dim in our lives through our own sin. Whereas, salvific faith (no matter our doubts at times of our own personal salvation) never waivers nor dims but only seems as though it might be thus because of our sinful nature of doubt. For it we could dim our salvific faith through doubt, that would necessarily lead to the theology of Arminianism which is false doctrine as you already know. Salvific faith is neither from our hand nor held by our hand as you already know, and yet through sinful thoughts and acts our joy in God can wax or wane even though His joy that He gives to us has all it's perfection. That is why I believe that joy is not the essence of faith but knowledge as Calvin states. If one NEVER has the joy of God, then i would have to question their salvation.

As to the subject of joy flowing or following faith, I do not hold either term in the high regard that i do that of essence. A river can flow out from an underground cave yet the river isn't the essence of the cave nor the cave of the water. I can follow a person down a path, but again, I nor the other person is of one essence. I'm sure there are better Biblical examples one could use. Again, my thinking on the how matter could be completely wrong, but I wanted to respond once again to assure you that I was not concerned for your salvation as you gave no reason for me to be so. And so this respond is to show how my statement which lead you to that conclusion (I can see how my wording would lead you thus) was not to yourself but in general and how it ties to the definitions of essence, joy, faith etc.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

To clarify my statement of "If your ultimate question is thus…." and to quit myself of seemingly danger of breaking a PB rule, I put forth that my statement was that of generalization and not particular to yourself.

You seemed to have a question as to wether joy was the essence of faith joining the two in dependence of each other. My statement was meant to mean that, although God's joy that He gives to His ppl never waivers in it's perfection, it can dim in our lives through our own sin. Whereas, salvific faith (no matter our doubts at times of our own personal salvation) never waivers nor dims but only seems as though it might be thus because of our sinful nature of doubt. For it we could dim our salvific faith through doubt, that would necessarily lead to the theology of Arminianism which is false doctrine as you already know. Salvific faith is neither from our hand nor held by our hand as you already know, and yet through sinful thoughts and acts our joy in God can wax or wane even though His joy that He gives to us has all it's perfection. That is why I believe that joy is not the essence of faith but knowledge as Calvin states. If one NEVER has the joy of God, then i would have to question their salvation.

As to the subject of joy flowing or following faith, I do not hold either term in the high regard that i do that of essence. A river can flow out from an underground cave yet the river isn't the essence of the cave nor the cave of the water. I can follow a person down a path, but again, I nor the other person is of one essence. I'm sure there are better Biblical examples one could use. Again, my thinking on the how matter could be completely wrong, but I wanted to respond once again to assure you that I was not concerned for your salvation as you gave no reason for me to be so. And so this respond is to show how my statement which lead you to that conclusion (I can see how my wording would lead you thus) was not to yourself but in general and how it ties to the definitions of essence, joy, faith etc.

Thank you for the clarification, Sarah! I agree with you and Calvin that joy is not of the essence of faith. However, when you say joy IS of the essence of knowledge, are you implying this knowledge is not of the essence of faith? After all, the three-part distinction of faith (consisting of knowledge, assent and trust) is very commonly held by the Reformed.

Perhaps knowledge and assent are something that also the fallen angels and unbelievers can have, but they lack trust. And trust may transform earthly knowledge into divine knowledge to which divine joy is inherent. This is mere speculation...

 

[Peairtach]

The Christian has an independent source of joy in Christ that is beyond and above this world and its troubles, but because of the nature of life in this world, and the presence of indwelling sin, he will not always feel joyful or be able to "access that source of joy" and the reason(s) for that lack of felt joy will not always be related to indwelling sin, though sometimes so.

So the experience of joy is not of the essence of faith. Someone can have saving faith and yet be experiencing great distress of soul.

The graces of hope and love always accompany faith, but although saving faith is real, as are repentance, love and hope, they are never perfected in this life because of indwelling sin.

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[OPC'n]

If i said joy is the essence of faith, that was not my meaning. I believe you are referring to this "That is why I believe that joy is not the essence of faith but knowledge of the word of God as Calvin states." My construction of sentence failed me as i meant knowledge of the word of God is the essence of faith. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

If i said joy is the essence of faith, that was not my meaning. I believe you are referring to this "That is why I believe that joy is not the essence of faith but knowledge of the word of God as Calvin states." My construction of sentence failed me as i meant knowledge of the word of God is the essence of faith. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

That was actually my fault. I should have read more carefully. I think there was no error in your construction of sentence.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

The Christian has an independent source of joy in Christ that is beyond and above this world and its troubles, but because of the nature of life in this world, and the presence of indwelling sin, he will not always feel joyful or be able to "access that source of joy" and the reason(s) for that lack of felt joy will not always be related to indwelling sin, though sometimes so.

So the experience of joy is not of the essence of faith. Someone can have saving faith and yet be experiencing great distress of soul.

The graces of hope and love always accompany faith, but although saving faith is real, as are repentance, love and hope, they are never perfected in this life because of indwelling sin.

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This made me remember what Matthew Winzer once taught me, that there is a difference between joy as emotion and as contemplation:

Human personality is not designed to function as a disembodied spirit but as a physical entity in a physical world. Our present physicality is tied to the earth. There are pleasant and painful feelings associated with it. That is a fact. It cannot in and of itself be judged as Christian or non Christian any more than other physical feelings of pain and pleasure. We personally feel a certain way with respect to the world and our physical condition in it. For some people those feelings can be quite painful, and the way man deals with pain is by suppression/depression. That is our natural response. The pain gets too much to deal with so we suppress it. In reality, that is all depression is, but it can also be complicated by numerous physical and psychological factors.

The joy of a believer is of a different kind. It is a deep-seated satisfaction which does not rely on physical conditions in the world or feeling related to the body or even to a specific mental state. It is joy in God, in the contemplation of reconciliation with God, in the present communion which is shared with Him, in the future prospect of being partaker of His glory. It is commanded. It is something which can be "reckoned" even when there is no outward stimulus for it, but only what is contrary to it. It can, then, exist side by side with those other emotions. One can hope against hope, live by the evidence of things not seen. If that is so, it should not be measured or judged by a comparison with these other emotions. It is a joy unspeakable and full of glory, which means it cannot be bound by the limitations of other human feelings. The presence of depression does not indicate the absence of Christian joy.

And what you, Richard, made me realize is that sin is spiritual and can hinder our Christian joy. Physical hindrances do not affect our spiritual joy, but sin does.

 

[Peairtach]

If you think about it even physical pain can overshadow our joy in Christ ; even something as simple and painful as toothache. It's just part of our nature as sinners in a world of various evils.

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[InSlaveryToChrist]

If you think about it even physical pain can overshadow our joy in Christ ; even something as simple and painful as toothache. It's just part of our nature as sinners in a world of various evils.

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I don't believe this is right. Physical pain is not what can overshadow our joy in Christ, but the sin that takes advantage of the physical pain. What matters is how we react to our suffering spiritually. If we make our suffering an excuse to sin, it will hinder our spiritual joy that is precisely the cause of reacting/thinking right about our suffering. Spiritual suffering, the misery of sin, may hinder our spiritual joy directly (I'm not sure).

The Bible does teach our spiritual state affects our physical state, but not vice versa.

"A merry heart makes a cheerful countenance: but by sorrow of the heart the spirit is broken." (Prov. 15:13)

"A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones." (Prov. 17:22)

 

[Peairtach]

I think the physical impinges on the spiritual in the sense at least that the converted man responding properly to physical pain and afflictions will need to seek strength to help in his time of need.

Were not Job's troubles, including his painful and unpleasant boils, not used to spiritually refine an already good man?


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[InSlaveryToChrist]

I think the physical impinges on the spiritual in the sense at least that the converted man responding properly to physical pain and afflictions will need to seek strength to help in his time of need.

Were not Job's troubles, including his painful and unpleasant boils, not used to spiritually refine an already good man?

Certainly. However, here is how I see it. Spiritual joy is dependent on knowledge of God and all that He is for you in Christ. Therefore, for one's spiritual joy to be hindered, he needs to be lied to (like the Devil does all day long). When Job received his trials and sufferings, was the first thing that his joy was hindered. No, the first thing that went through his mind was the knowledge of what had happened and the possible reasons for the events. This is where Job's sinfulness (and perhaps also the Devil) took advantage of his sufferings and started to tempt him through lies, and THIS is when his joy got interfered with. Why? Because his joy was dependent on his worldview/knowledge, and all the lies in his head were capable of killing and replacing the precious truths in that worldview/knowledge.

So, you see physical suffering can't directly affect our spiritual joy, although it is a catalyst for sin and its lies to hinder the joy.

 

[Peairtach]

Thank you for that, Samuel.

I hope our discussion has been of some help to you.

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