Is Sexuality Temporary?

[Ben Chomp]

I think a better rephrasing of the question is under hierarchy, not headship (and if the Facebook group "Geneva Commons" saw me saying this, I would probably get banned for anti-Wilsonite content). There will be hierarchy, as we will rule nations and judge angels.

Hmm. We will judge the nations and angels, but at a certain point all that gets wrapped up, right? They only need to be judged once. Then Jesus will hand the kingdom to the Father once every enemy has been defeated.

 

[RamistThomist]

Hmm. We will judge the nations and angels, but at a certain point all that gets wrapped up, right? They only need to be judged once. Then Jesus will hand the kingdom to the Father once every enemy has been defeated.

Maybe. Maybe not. I was just pointing out that hierarchy plays a more fundamental role than Male-headship.

 

[Ben Chomp]

Maybe. Maybe not. I was just pointing out that hierarchy plays a more fundamental role than Male-headship.

I'm fine with that. But beyond all the judgment business, I don't see a strong case for a continuing hierarchy among God's people in glory.

 

[Afterthought]

We are raised with the self-same bodies. Why doesn't that clinch the argument?

 

[RamistThomist]

I'm fine with that. But beyond all the judgment business, I don't see a strong case for a continuing hierarchy among God's people in glory.

Maybe there isn't, but either way doesn't change the debate about whether all males will have their organs chopped off the moment they get to heaven.

 

[RamistThomist]

We are raised with the self-same bodies. Why doesn't that clinch the argument?

It does

 

[TylerRay]

It means that they are biologically able to do these things and that they are called to play certain roles in this age. Will male headship still be relevant in heaven?

Not all of them are biologically able to reproduce, yet it still means something to say they are male or female. Are eunuchs "gender neutral?"

I'm with Jacob--there is a huge burden of proof for the one who asserts that sex is abolished in heaven. If it cannot be proven, there's no reason to think it will change (unless someone's ideology demands it).

 

[RamistThomist]

Consider a woman's breasts (sorry, there is no not-awkward way to write that). Even in OT times they had an intimacy dimension, yet strictly speaking they aren't sexual organs. So presumably that would identify sex in the eschaton. Unless they, also, get chopped off.

 

[Ben Chomp]

Maybe there isn't, but either way doesn't change the debate about whether all males will have their organs chopped off the moment they get to heaven.

Our sexual organs are more than just the visible flesh. We've also got organs that produce semen and eggs. Will they continue to do this in glory? Will women continue to menstruate?

You can see how these are complex questions.

 

[Ben Chomp]

Strictly speaking, the verse only says they won't marry or be given in marriage. It doesn't say anything about previous marriages. I won't press that point too hard, though, since the previous married life/lives didn't seem to be that important to Jesus in the parable.

Jesus wasn't telling a parable when he gave his answer about marriage in glory.

Whose wife will she be, then, since the seven had her?

 

[Ben Chomp]

We are raised with the self-same bodies. Why doesn't that clinch the argument?

It might. But it also introduces complex questions like the ones raised in this thread.

 

[TylerRay]

Our sexual organs are more than just the visible flesh. We've also got organs that produce semen and eggs. Will they continue to do this in glory? Will women continue to menstruate?

You can see how these are complex questions.

I don't see why someone would want to pry into mysteries like this. God hasn't spoken, and it has no bearing on how we live now. Why not be content with what God has revealed?

 

[Ben Chomp]

I don't see why someone would want to pry into mysteries like this. God hasn't spoken, and it has no bearing on how we live now. Why not be content with what God has revealed?

I'm very content with what God has revealed and feel no great need to know the answers to these questions. I do, however, think that they are interesting questions and I believe it might be possible to learn more from Scripture about them than we currently understand. If answers can be found, they might have some relevance to our current crisis with sexuality we're experiencing in our culture.

Can't a theologian be a little curious?

 

[TylerRay]

If answers can be found, they might have some relevance to our current crisis with sexuality we're experiencing in our culture.

What crisis?

"God hath shewed thee, O man, what is good."

"The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things that are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all."

 

[Ben Chomp]

What crisis?

There's an upheaval going on in American popular thought right now concerning sex and gender.

"God hath shewed thee, O man, what is good."

"The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things that are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all."

Amen!

 

[TylerRay]

There's an upheaval going on in American popular thought right now concerning sex and gender.



Amen!

The upheaval is because they have rejected what is revealed, not because we haven't understood enough of it.

 

[Ben Chomp]

The upheaval is because they have rejected what is revealed, not because we haven't understood enough of it.

Heresies in the church and culture historically tend to motivate the people of God to return the Scriptures and think more deeply about how to respond to fresh (although not altogether new) heresies. This results in a deeper understanding of Scripture among the orthodox. Maybe this cultural moment is another opportunity for growth in understanding God's word.

 

[TylerRay]

Heresies in the church and culture historically tend to motivate the people of God to return the Scriptures and think more deeply about how to respond to fresh (although not altogether new) heresies. This results in a deeper understanding of Scripture among the orthodox. Maybe this cultural moment is another opportunity for growth in understanding God's word.

If they have rejected what is plain on the face of the Scriptures, how can speculation on obscure eschatological mysteries be expected to change their minds? The moral questions related to this "crisis" are closed issues, as far as the Scriptures are concerned.

 

[Charles Johnson]

Regarding the idea mentioned earlier that heaven could be non-monogamous, that's a perverse idea. How could we imagine that God's law, being perfect, when humanity has been perfected, could be substituted for anything else, much less something so vile?

 

[Ben Chomp]

Regarding the idea mentioned earlier that heaven could be non-monogamous, that's a perverse idea. How could we imagine that God's law, being perfect, when humanity has been perfected, could be substituted for anything else, much less something so vile?

I don't know because I didn't read Kreeft's whole presentation. I just read his punch lines. If you're interested, I would read his paper.

 

[Ben Chomp]

If they have rejected what is plain on the face of the Scriptures, how can speculation on obscure eschatological mysteries be expected to change their minds? The moral questions related to this "crisis" are closed issues, as far as the Scriptures are concerned.

I don't believe that this is an opportunity to change anyone's mind. Rather, it is an opportunity for the church to study Scripture freshly to gain a better understanding of these issues and how to pastorally respond to them. That's what's being debated at the PCA GA right this very moment.

 

[TylerRay]

I don't believe that this is an opportunity to change anyone's mind. Rather, it is an opportunity for the church to study Scripture freshly to gain a better understanding of these issues and how to pastorally respond to them. That's what's being debated at the PCA GA right this very moment.

A large part of what is going on at the PCA GA would be resolved if the Reformed doctrine of concupiscence were embraced by the denomination as a whole. What is at stake is not merely a pastoral issue, but fundamental principles regarding the doctrine of sin, the doctrine of depravity, and sexual ethics.

It's not for me to judge the PCA, but the discussion goes much deeper than the question of how to pastor someone who is attracted to his own sex.

Again, the solution is found in embracing the things our forefathers have already worked out from the plain meaning of the Scriptures, not in speculation.

 

[Ben Chomp]

A large part of what is going on at the PCA GA would be resolved if the Reformed doctrine of concupiscence were embraced by the denomination as a whole. What is at stake is not merely a pastoral issue, but fundamental principles regarding the doctrine of sin, the doctrine of depravity, and sexual ethics.

It's not for me to judge the PCA, but the discussion goes much deeper than the question of how to pastor someone who is attracted to his own sex.

Again, the solution is found in embracing the things our forefathers have already worked out from the plain meaning of the Scriptures, not in speculation.

I don't know that anything fruitful would come from my line of questioning. I just think that there could be interesting possibilities. I don't ask because I'm trying to solve the pastoral issue for gender-dysphoria people. I ask mainly because I think it's an interesting question.

 

[Ben Chomp]

Jesus still has his human nature in heaven (orthodox Christology demands this). So presumably he still has male organs (not trying to be crude, but Jesus in his humanity is still identified as a male in heaven).

So here is an interesting bit.

You've said here that being a sexual creature is essential to being human. A human is essentially a male or a female. If a person is neither male nor female, they are not a human being.

This would mean that sexuality is not temporary, but permanent and essential to our humanity. Assuming this is so, this has very interesting implications for the current gender debates. Don't you think?

 

[RamistThomist]

This would mean that sexuality is not temporary, but permanent and essential to our humanity. Assuming this is so, this has very interesting implications for the current gender debates. Don't you think?

Probably, though I would be careful in saying either "maleness" or "femaleness" is an essential property of being human. Since, per some Greeks, that would make women less than human.

I guess you could turn it around and say that "being sexed" is an essential property.

Yes, it's relevant to the current debate. The globalist masters openly attack universals and essence.

 

[Ben Chomp]

Probably, though I would be careful in saying either "maleness" or "femaleness" is an essential property of being human. Since, per some Greeks, that would make women less than human.

I guess you could turn it around and say that "being sexed" is an essential property.

Yes, it's relevant to the current debate. The globalist masters openly attack universals and essence.

In a sermon I'm not sure I would say that being sexed is essential to being human. I'm inclined to think that you're correct, but I don't have enough exegetical certainty about that to say it from the pulpit. I would however say that God has created each person either male or female and that this has great significance and responsibility in this age. It is ignored to our peril.

 

[RamistThomist]

but I don't have enough exegetical certainty about that to say it from the pulpit.

The exegesis is there and the Christian tradition has been pretty consistent on it. Genesis 1:27 ff. Image of God. Male and female. Not sure what else you need.

 

[Ben Chomp]

The exegesis is there and the Christian tradition has been pretty consistent on it. Genesis 1:27 ff. Image of God. Male and female. Not sure what else you need.

I think I would need Scriptures that clearly show that we keep our sexuality in glory. Maybe there's something in the apocalyptic literature to this end.

 

[Ben Chomp]

On a related note - will my children be my children in glory? Do those relationships cross over?

 

[Ben Chomp]

I suppose we would have to maintain those relationships in some way because being begotten is essential to our humanity. Our bodies are connected to each other by generation. If that connection disappears, then our humanity is called into question.