Is This Antinomianism?

[Amazing Grace]

One thing to mention...The moral law existed prior to Sinai and if we view the moral law as a representation of God's righteous character it will have existed even prior to creation and the Covenant of Works. I have seen a couple of times people have posted about living according to Sinai. Just want to reiterate that the moral law existed prior to and in fact if we look at Sinai it was actually a part of the Covenant of Grace. In the NT there are still imperatives. We want to properly see them after the indicative. Because we are now sons and daughters...do this. But if we look closely at the decalogue, we also see that in the Preamble God professes to be Covenant LORD and had delivered them out of Egypt out of the house of bondage.

We keep the law (our Father's commands/wishes) out of love and gratitude. We want to please Him - not obedience for fear or obedience's sake.

I'm pretty sure this is the classic reformed/confessional understanding of the law in the life of the believer. Open to correction.

Chris, when speaking of the 3rd use of Law, we are specifically talking of the 10 words given clearly at Sinai. Is there another one that I am amissing prior to Sinai? It is obvious the mosiac code was cut at sinai, the 10 words. Or else why would God speak of " delivering them out of egypt" to Abraham?

Sure the 10 words were given at Sinai but they are a summary of the moral law not the totality of or a new law itself. The moral law existed prior to Sinai. It was wrong to murder, committ adultery, bear false witness etc. during Abraham's time and before. Sabbath is a creation ordinance and is perpetual as well. So the 3rd use of the law has always been around. OT believers were justified by faith just as NT believers. After Abraham was justified he entered into sanctification (as did Moses etc.) and the law wasn't contrary to their Christian walk.

Instead of saying "The" moral law, it should be noted as "A" moral law. Or covenants right? it cannot be denied that "The" moral law referenced in the writ was cut at Sinai. Or else God would ot have said "Rescued out of Egypt"

For before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. ROM 5:13

What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. GAL 3:19

WHen we read Law in the Bible, it always refers to Sinai. But it is never refered to as an exact replica of the cow given to adam. I do not know what you mean when you say summary not a totality. What other moral laws existed?

 

[crhoades]

One of the best treatments of the law of God can be found in the Westminster Larger Catechism. I can't highly recommend enough to take time to read through it and pay careful attention to the Scripture proofs. Here is an online copy: Westminster Larger Catechism 91-150

Below is a couple excerpts showing that the moral law was given to Adam and also that it is useful for the regenerate man. We could go in circles but I hope on any discussion I would give would be to merely restate what is already stated there - and I would probably goof it up. More than likely Mr. Winzer, Jacob or most others will be doing the same.

Q. 92. What did God at first reveal unto man as the rule of his obedience?
A. The rule of obedience revealed to Adam in the estate of innocence, and to all mankind in him, besides a special command not to eat of the fruit of the tree knowledge of good and evil, was the moral law.[398]

[398] Genesis 1:26-27. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Romans 2:14-15. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another Romans 10:5. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. Genesis 2:17. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Q. 93. What is the moral law?
A. The moral law is the declaration of the will of God to mankind, directing and binding every one to personal, perfect, and perpetual conformity and obedience thereunto, in the frame and disposition of the whole man, soul and body,[399] and in performance of all those duties of holiness and righteousness which he oweth to God and man:[400] promising life upon the fulfilling, and threatening death upon the breach of it.[401]

Q. 94. Is there any use of the moral law to man since the fall? (presupposes its existence prior to the fall...)
A. Although no man, since the fall, can attain to righteousness and life by the moral law:[402] yet there is great use thereof, as well common to all men, as peculiar either to the unregenerate, or the regenerate.[403]

Q. 97. What special use is there of the moral law to the regenerate?
A. Although they that are regenerate, and believe in Christ, be delivered from the moral law as a covenant of works,[414] so as thereby they are neither justified[415] nor condemned;[416] yet, besides the general uses thereof common to them with all men, it is of special use, to show them how much they are bound to Christ for his fulfilling it, and enduring the curse thereof in their stead, and for their good;[417] and thereby to provoke them to more thankfulness,[418] and to express the same in their greater care to conform themselves thereunto as the rule of their obedience.[419]

[414] Romans 6:14. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Romans 7:4, 6. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.... But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Galatians 4:4-5. But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
[415] Romans 3:20. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
[416] Galatians 5:23. Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Romans 8:1. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[417] Romans 7:24-25. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Galatians 3:13-14. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Romans 8:3-4. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[418] Luke 1:68-69, 74-75. Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David.... That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life. Colossians 1:12-14. Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.
[419] Romans 7:22. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man. Romans 12:2. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Titus 2:11-14. For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

 

[Amazing Grace]

One of the best treatments of the law of God can be found in the Westminster Larger Catechism. I can't highly recommend enough to take time to read through it and pay careful attention to the Scripture proofs. Here is an online copy: Westminster Larger Catechism 91-150

Below is a couple excerpts showing that the moral law was given to Adam and also that it is useful for the regenerate man. We could go in circles but I hope on any discussion I would give would be to merely restate what is already stated there - and I would probably goof it up. More than likely Mr. Winzer, Jacob or most others will be doing the same.

Q. 92. What did God at first reveal unto man as the rule of his obedience?
A. The rule of obedience revealed to Adam in the estate of innocence, and to all mankind in him, besides a special command not to eat of the fruit of the tree knowledge of good and evil, was the moral law.[398]

[398] Genesis 1:26-27. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Romans 2:14-15. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another Romans 10:5. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. Genesis 2:17. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Q. 93. What is the moral law?
A. The moral law is the declaration of the will of God to mankind, directing and binding every one to personal, perfect, and perpetual conformity and obedience thereunto, in the frame and disposition of the whole man, soul and body,[399] and in performance of all those duties of holiness and righteousness which he oweth to God and man:[400] promising life upon the fulfilling, and threatening death upon the breach of it.[401]

Q. 94. Is there any use of the moral law to man since the fall? (presupposes its existence prior to the fall...)
A. Although no man, since the fall, can attain to righteousness and life by the moral law:[402] yet there is great use thereof, as well common to all men, as peculiar either to the unregenerate, or the regenerate.[403]

Q. 97. What special use is there of the moral law to the regenerate?
A. Although they that are regenerate, and believe in Christ, be delivered from the moral law as a covenant of works,[414] so as thereby they are neither justified[415] nor condemned;[416] yet, besides the general uses thereof common to them with all men, it is of special use, to show them how much they are bound to Christ for his fulfilling it, and enduring the curse thereof in their stead, and for their good;[417] and thereby to provoke them to more thankfulness,[418] and to express the same in their greater care to conform themselves thereunto as the rule of their obedience.[419]

[414] Romans 6:14. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Romans 7:4, 6. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.... But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Galatians 4:4-5. But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
[415] Romans 3:20. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
[416] Galatians 5:23. Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Romans 8:1. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[417] Romans 7:24-25. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Galatians 3:13-14. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Romans 8:3-4. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[418] Luke 1:68-69, 74-75. Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David.... That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life. Colossians 1:12-14. Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.
[419] Romans 7:22. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man. Romans 12:2. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Titus 2:11-14. For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

This is a digression though Chris and does not explain the thrust of this thread, but thank you for this.

I do have one question though

Titus 2:11-14. For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


Why doesnt this say anything about Law doing these things. We know Law is not grace. I never noticed this scripture before in this light..

Let me again state clearly I am 100% convinced of the proposed first two uses. My concern is this rule of life legal code for the believers life.

I also agree that moral duties existed prior to SInai, yet it is true that as a covenant, it began with Moses.

 

[crhoades]

What of the Covenant of Works?

 

[larryjf]

The moral Law of God (which the Sabbath is a part of) never ends.

The ceremonial Law has come to fulfillment in Christ and is no longer practiced. That's what Col 2:16-17 is referring to when it speaks "in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of sabbaths:"

It is not referring to the weekly Sabbath, but rather to the Sabbaths that were connected to the ceremonial Law (day of atonement, feast of tabernacles).

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I would say that Paul's role for the moral law in the life of the believer is that of written statement of God's character teaching us what he likes and does not like, so that we may know what things please him so that we may do them and please him and continue to abide in his love.

Timcat: you have touched on something here that I believe I am missing. The 3rd use of the Law is directly related to the understanding we need it for our sanctification. Why did it take me so long to realize what I am disagreeing with. Sheesh. For justification, I am pointed to Christ alone, the Cross, yet for some odd reason for sanctification I am pointed to Sinai. That once justified by Faith alone in Christ alone, the Spirit who now indwells the believer takes him back to sinai for sanctification.

I would say rather that the last clause should read "the Spirit who now indewlls the believer takes us back to God's character as expressed through pre-Mosaic teachings, Mosaic teachings and New Testament teachings in order that we may learn how to please God." It is God's character, and not Sinai itself as a system, that is the ultimate source material for the
"3rd use of the law".

This interaction reminds me that I think I'm being clear but can still be misunderstood.

I never meant to imply that we turn back to Sinai. It's kind of amusing that Tim can say: "We look back on the law to see what pleases Him..." and you say "Oh! Right!"



I like how Tim put the point that it is not "Sinai as a system". Oy! We have debates, along the lines of Theonomy, that wonder if that is what is being attempted by some Reformed folks and they try to go out of their way to show that it is not the case.

But, as I said, that looking back at principles found in the Law is not intended to state that you go out and place a peripet on your roof per se but to grow in your understanding of what that all implies.

The implication that the Law can be summed up in two positive commands has a great deal to say about this. The reason why specific do's and don'ts have to be added is because we were fallen and could not do that. Idolatry, false worship, murder, theft, ... - none of these would even occur if we had not fallen into sin.

You may have noticed in the news that a Marine did something horrific to a local Okinawan girl. It is incredible blight on us and is actually affecting U.S.-Japanese relations. Now, the truth of the matter is that it is apparently obvious to the casual observer that what he did was wicked but, in a society like ours, if you don't specifically have a law against the thing he did then you could never punish him. Our natural, fallen inclination is "...show me where it says I can't do something like that or show me something that says that I must do something."

Thus, "Sinai as a system" is how the flesh would approach God's moral character. It would look for the performance marks - list the 600+ commands and conclude, as Paul did as a Pharisee, that I am blameless before the Law.

But awareness of what the Law really reflected is what kills us. I've been trying to come up with a good analogy but think about all the revelation of the nature of God's holiness throughout the Scriptures - but particularly the law - as a representation of who He is. The actual codification of the Law is obviously very important here because we still see people with dispensational views that mix their ideas of "touch not, taste not" and can somehow conclude that certain moral principles were created at Sinai as if God didn't enjoin the Sabbath rest or even convicted Sodom unjustly prior to the giving of the Law.

Paul indicates in Romans 2 that all those principles were there, and men "knew" them, but men do what? They suppress the truth in unrighteousness so out come some "dos and dont's" that bold face His character and make it much more difficult for our minds to ignore.

Thus, when we're born again, as Tim notes we do not approach the Law as a system. That's because "system" is the flesh's methods. We go after the character of the Law which reveals God and mine it for ways in which we can express our love to Him. That cannot save obviously because love God and love man are Law but it is still our pursuit the flows out of our justification.

Now you might say to me: "Why don't we just love God and man?"

But my question back is this: "How do you know how to do that?"

After all, we are not perfected in our minds and the man of sin still rages against us. Christians do things all the time that they "...have peace about..." and convince themselves that God has sanctioned. They turn their liberty into license and if you mention that pre-marital sex is displeasing to God they'll argue "from the flesh" that this is the OT and we don't live by Law anymore under the illusion that their gut can tell them that this now pleases God. They'll also argue that liberty is somehow freedom from any demans by God. You don't them turn them to the Law as a "system" but it is meant to be something that convinces us properly of what is/isn't of the character of God.

Thus, the third use of the Law is to still instruct us but the instruction is to meditate on it, get underneath it, to see the ways in which it is to be pursued with delight by us as an expression of our love to our Father. It convicts us of the sin that still remains that we might repent to God and put to death the body of flesh so that we might pursue the positive things that please our Father. You see this principle expressed throughout the Old and New Testament. The man dead in sin will always see it as something imposing, restrictive, and even hate it because He views God the same way but the Christian should see it as useful for instruction, reproof, and training to build him up and to delight in the same because, behind each specific prohibition and admonition of the Law, is the God they love.

 

[MW]

Exactly, and that is all this is about. No covenant, no rule. If the woman is released from the cov bond of the first marriage, then how does it still remain in any aspect for her second marraige. Does she use the first marraige for anything in her life once remarried?

You are pushing the illustration to a point of consistency where the apostle was unwilling to go. As noted earlier, his illustration of ver. 1-3 required the conclusion that the husband -- the law -- was dead. But in ver. 4 he says the wife -- the believer -- is dead to the law. Given this fact it is inappropriate to press the apostle's illustration further than he was willing to take it. The law itself is not dead. It is the believer who is dead to the law as a covenant of life. Let's put it this way: the believer no longer serves the law, but Christ; and the law serves the believer in Christ.

 

[MW]

Although Nicholas didn't supply proof for his understanding, he is arguably correct. For Paul specifically says that "We were made to die to the Law that we might be joined to another...that we might bear fruit for God" v.4. Inference: if we are still alive to the law in any way we are not bearing fruit for God.
Check of inference: v.6 "we have been released from the law, having died to that which we were bound"
Given the parallel passage: Gal 5:16-18 where "Spirit" is clearly the Holy Spirit as is made explicit in vv.22-25, it is quite possible that "newness of Spirit" in Rom. 7:6 is either a reference to the new man created in Christ Jesus by the Holy Spirit or a shorthand for a new kind of life lived in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Context is important. The passage as a whole is taking up the theme announced in 6:14, about not being under the law but under grace. In the latter half of chap. 6 the apostle spoke of yielding our members servants (slaves) to righteousness. Chap. 7 comes back to address the point of servanthood in terms of WHAT is being served. Marriage is used as an illustration of this point. Hence the context demands that law as master or as covenant-bond be understood in this passage, and not law simply as a standard of righteousness.

I think Rom. 7:6 is referring to the new man, which is understood to be the work of the Holy Spirit but not expressed as such in this passage. But the point is that the oldness of the letter is not a blanket referral to law as law. The apostle proceeds to speak of the goodness of the law and that any lack is owing entirely to his own slavery to sin. Hence "oldness of the letter" refers to the man's relationship to the law before he was united to Christ. It is incorrect to refer this term to the law in general.

 

[KMK]

Let's put it this way: the believer no longer serves the law, but Christ; and the law serves the believer in Christ.

Just another one to add to my upcoming book: "Winzer's Wisdom"

 

[panta dokimazete]

 

[Amazing Grace]

What of the Covenant of Works?

Was this directed at me Chris? Kinda just thrown ot there...

 

[Amazing Grace]

Exactly, and that is all this is about. No covenant, no rule. If the woman is released from the cov bond of the first marriage, then how does it still remain in any aspect for her second marraige. Does she use the first marraige for anything in her life once remarried?

You are pushing the illustration to a point of consistency where the apostle was unwilling to go. As noted earlier, his illustration of ver. 1-3 required the conclusion that the husband -- the law -- was dead. But in ver. 4 he says the wife -- the believer -- is dead to the law. Given this fact it is inappropriate to press the apostle's illustration further than he was willing to take it. The law itself is not dead. It is the believer who is dead to the law as a covenant of life. Let's put it this way: the believer no longer serves the law, but Christ; and the law serves the believer in Christ.

what difference does it make who or what is dead? IF the Law is dead to me or if I am dead to the law, the end result is the same for those in Christ Jesus no? The Law was never intended to bring eternal life though was it? Temporal yes, eternal no. And logically I can conclude what I have from the analogy Paul used.

 

[Grymir]

Ah, I've had a busy couple of days at work. This is a great thread. I wasn't going to get involved, just sit on the sidelines and watch and let wiser people speak, but I can't because of this post:

Amazing Grace - quote "When we read Law in the Bible, it always refers to Sinai. But it is never refered to as an exact replica of the cow given to adam. I do not know what you mean when you say summary not a totality. What other moral laws existed?"

He said cow! Moo! (The owner of the business I manage is Hindu, so this lept out at me.)

After I regained my composure, I went back and read the original post. Fortner is right in his "Christ is the end of the Law", his "Sabbath" one is also pretty much right except the 'forbidden' sabbath part, and those two things i read don't sound antinomian.

Fortner says "The only way any sinner can possibly fulfill God's holy law is by faith, by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ who has perfectly fulfilled the law in all its details and demands in the place of his people. When we hear the demands of God's law and justice, we lift up Christ in the hands of faith, and God is well-pleased!" This much is true. When we focus on our sins and what we are doing, we take our eyes off of God. 'live not unto yourselves, but unto God!' I used to tell my Churches of Christ friends that if you want to whip yourselves up into a legalistic frenzy, have at it, but don't expect me to.

I might post more, but the morning law is working on me and convicting me of "Thou Shall Drinketh Much Coffee!!!!"

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Exactly, and that is all this is about. No covenant, no rule. If the woman is released from the cov bond of the first marriage, then how does it still remain in any aspect for her second marraige. Does she use the first marraige for anything in her life once remarried?

You are pushing the illustration to a point of consistency where the apostle was unwilling to go. As noted earlier, his illustration of ver. 1-3 required the conclusion that the husband -- the law -- was dead. But in ver. 4 he says the wife -- the believer -- is dead to the law. Given this fact it is inappropriate to press the apostle's illustration further than he was willing to take it. The law itself is not dead. It is the believer who is dead to the law as a covenant of life. Let's put it this way: the believer no longer serves the law, but Christ; and the law serves the believer in Christ.

what difference does it make who or what is dead? IF the Law is dead to me or if I am dead to the law, the end result is the same for those in Christ Jesus no? The Law was never intended to bring eternal life though was it? Temporal yes, eternal no. And logically I can conclude what I have from the analogy Paul used.

Robert,

If you are paying attention to what is being argued then it makes all the difference in the world.

What is being argued is that the moral Law is a reflection of God's Holy Character. By definition, God's Holy character does not change. We do.

The analogy is used many different ways but I've tried very hard and very long in this thread to describe that the difference before and after our re-birth is us and not God. The reason why Sinai was so threatening and frightening to the Jews is because God's wrath for sin was there while the heavenly Jersulem is a place of acceptance because Christ has taken the Curse. Also, did Christ change in Isaiah 6 after Isaiah had the hot coal touched to his lips? Prior to this, Isaiah was in utter agony in His holy presence.

I think you're trying so hard to object to the way this is formulated that you aren't taking enough time to understand it.

Paul never says that the Law is a bad thing. The implication is always that sin is produced in us and death is produced in us because of our fallen natures but the Law itself remains the same because it reflects the character of God, which is immutable. It is not the "do's and don'ts" that are immutable but Who is behind those do's and don'ts that is.

 

[Stephen]

This appears antinomian to me. If he is free from the law, then how does he explain literally mountains of legislation at both the Federal and State level, along with courts, lawyers, &c? All those that are free from the law need to do is open their refrigerator and you'll find Federally regulated meat, eggs, cheese, milk and then a 1.6 gallon regulated flush in the bathroom, my goodness there are laws everywhere governing everything, like I said, Congress has so interjected itself that they govern how much water you use to flush your toilet. You could spend all day everyday just reading all of the laws you are subject to and never get to the end of them before you die. Go into any courtroom and you'll find Leviticus fully operative complete with sin and heave offerings (e.g., fines and court costs), a bar separating an accused from the altar, with a black robed priestclass mediating Justice. Doesn't look like he is very "free from the law" to me, just looks like he is denying the Lordship of Christ whereby the end of his theology is the Divine Right of Kings and the total state claiming dominion over every aspect of man's life in contradiction to the Great Commission.

Its never "Law versus No Law" it is always "God's Law versus Man's Law".

We do not keep the Law for justification (that is damnable heresy Gal. 1:6-9), but we do keep it as a rule of life.

I believe this is typical of Antinomianism. They tell us we are not bound to keep the law, yet the epistles are full of commands to walk in obedience. The Sermon on the Mount is the contrast between the law of God and man's law. The Sabbath was given at creation along with marriage and work, so is he advocating that we abandon marriage and work? This teaching would certainly be well received by our godless age.

 

[crhoades]

What of the Covenant of Works?

Was this directed at me Chris? Kinda just thrown ot there...

I get lazy sometimes and don't hit the quote button. The last sentence in the last post before it (post #95) was

I also agree that moral duties existed prior to SInai, yet it is true that as a covenant, it began with Moses.

That's why I mentioned the CoW (that's for you Timothy) again. Because in the post that you quoted from me with the WLC it has:

Q. 92. What did God at first reveal unto man as the rule of his obedience?
A. The rule of obedience revealed to Adam in the estate of innocence, and to all mankind in him, besides a special command not to eat of the fruit of the tree knowledge of good and evil, was the moral law.

So here we have the moral law revealed unto Adam before the fall. To further see what that relationship with Adam and the uses of the law both before and after the fall let's take a look at WLC 20:

Q. 20. What was the providence of God toward man in the estate in which he was created?
A. The providence of God toward man in the estate in which he was created, was the placing him in paradise, appointing him to dress it, giving him liberty to eat of the fruit of the earth;[80] putting the creatures under his dominion,[81] and ordaining marriage for his help;[82] affording him communion with himself;[83] instituting the sabbath;[84] entering into a covenant of life with him, upon condition of personal, perfect, and perpetual obedience,[85] of which the tree of life was a pledge;[86] and forbidding to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, upon the pain of death.[87]

So here we see that it was a relationship of a covenant of life (in a second you will see it also referred to the covenant of works.) Also notice that the sabbath was there prior to the fall as a part of life. Perfect obedience to the moral law as well as the special stipulations was required to stay in this state.

We next see a few questions on the state of sin and misery that we have fallen. Sobering stuff! If mediated on, it will also show why we need the law to point it out to us and point us to Christ. Then we read:

Q. 30. Doth God leave all mankind to perish in the estate of sin and misery?
A. God doth not leave all men to perish in the estate of sin and misery,[111] into which they fell by the breach of the first covenant, commonly called the covenant of works;[112] but of his mere love and mercy delivereth his elect out of it, and bringeth them into an estate of salvation by the second covenant, commonly called the covenant of grace.[113]

[112] Galatians 3:10, 12. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.... And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
[113] Titus 3:4-7. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Galatians 3:21. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. Romans 3:20-22. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference.

Praise God from Whom all blessings flow! So here is the connection with a covenant prior to Sinai where obedience to the moral law was required.

But what does our beloved Catechism say about the law as regards to the Covenant of Grace?

Q. 32. How is the grace of God manifested in the second covenant?
A. The grace of God is manifested in the second covenant, in that he freely provideth and offereth to sinners a Mediator,[115] and life and salvation by him;[116] and requiring faith as the condition to interest them in him,[117] promiseth and giveth his Holy Spirit[118] to all his elect, to work in them that faith,[119] with all other saving graces;[120] and to enable them unto all holy obedience,[121] as the evidence of the truth of their faith[122] and thankfulness to God,[123] and as the way which he hath appointed them to salvation.[124]

[121] Ezekiel 36:27. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
[122] James 2:18, 22. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.... Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

So even the obedience that we are called to walk in is enabled by grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit-and I might add, it is out of gratitude. Our Heidleberg brethren I'm sure would love to expound the paradigm of Guilt, Grace, and Gratitude for all of us! We are casued to walk in His statutes. What are those statutes other than the moral law? If the moral law is in no wise binding than what are we to walk in then?

Back to the thought that the 10 commandments are the summary of the moral law and not the totality of them:

. 98. Where is the moral law summarily comprehended?
A. The moral law is summarily comprehended in the ten commandments, which were delivered by the voice of God upon Mount Sinai, and written by him in two tables of stone;[420] and are recorded in the twentieth chapter of Exodus. The four first commandments containing our duty to God, and the other six our duty to man.[421]
Q. 99. What rules are to be observed for the right understanding of the ten commandments?
A. For the right understanding of the ten commandments, these rules are to be observed:
1. That the law is perfect, and bindeth everyone to full conformity in the whole man unto the righteousness thereof, and unto entire obedience forever; so as to require the utmost perfection of every duty, and to forbid the least degree of every sin.[422]
2. That it is spiritual [which is what Rich was driving at], and so reacheth the understanding, will, affections, and all other powers of the soul; as well as words, works, and gestures.[423]
3. That one and the same thing, in divers respects, is required or forbidden in several commandments.[424]
4. That as, where a duty is commanded, the contrary sin is forbidden;[425] and, where a sin is forbidden, the contrary duty is commanded:[426] so, where a promise is annexed, the contrary threatening is included;[427] and, where a threatening is annexed, the contrary promise is included.[428]
5. That what God forbids, is at no time to be done;[429] what he commands, is always our duty;[430] and yet every particular duty is not to be done at all times.[431]
6. That under one sin or duty, all of the same kind are forbidden or commanded; together with all the causes, means, occasions, and appearances thereof, and provocations thereunto.[432]
7. That what is forbidden or commanded to ourselves, we are bound, according to our places to endeavour that it may be avoided or performed by others, according to the duty of their places.[433]
8. That in what is commanded to others, we are bound, according to our places and callings, to be helpful to them;[434] and to take heed of partaking with others in what is forbidden them.[435]

So it is a summary of what is to be done. Thou shalt not kill (or commit murder). How are we to understand that summary? What about in self defense? Capital punishment? Just war? We look to the other parts of the moral law that that commandment summarized for the full teaching on the preserving and taking of life. Check out the WLC question on it to see how full it is to be understood. **I've included it at the end of the post for everyone to see the thoroughness that the divines were capable of.

In fact on the Sermon on the Mount - Jesus summarized the law with Loving God totally and loving our neighbor as ourselves. Those were both laws that were given back in the day and he said that the rest of the law and the prophets hangs on them. So in a sense, they are a summary of the summary.

And lastly, the Divines linked the preamble to the Ten Commandments to us as the church today.

Q. 101. What is the preface to the ten commandments?
A. The preface to the ten commandments is contained in these words, I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.[436] Wherein God manifesteth his sovereignty, as being JEHOVAH, the eternal, immutable, and almighty God;[437] having his being in and of himself,[438] and giving being to all his words[439] and works:[440] and that he is a God in covenant, as with Israel of old, so with all his people;[441] who, as he brought them out of their bondage in Egypt, so he delivereth us from our spiritual thraldom;[442] and that therefore we are bound to take him for our God alone, and to keep all his commandments.[443]

[441] Genesis 17:7. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Romans 3:29. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also.
[442] Luke 1:74-75. That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
[443] 1 Peter 1:15, 17-18. But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation.... And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers. Leviticus 18:30. Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God. Leviticus 19:37. Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: I am the LORD.

Notice that they wove in verses from Leviticus alongside 1 Peter etc.

I apologize for not fleshing this out more. I was at work and have been extremely busy as of late and fall into posting in shorthand rather than connecting all of the dots. Hope this helps. Can't encourage enough studying through all that the Confession and Catechisms teach on the law of God. By interacting on this discussion, I've been pushing the need for the law in the believers' life. But praise be to God for everything it and the Bible says of Christ keeping the law on our behalf and imputing His righteousness to us. Please understand that I believe all of that as well and fight all the time to try and stay balanced.



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Q. 135. What are the duties required in the sixth commandment?
A. The duties required in the sixth commandment are all careful studies, and lawful endeavors, to preserve the life of ourselves[721] and others[722] by resisting all thoughts and purposes,[723] subduing all passions,[724] and avoiding all occasions,[725] temptations,[726] and practices, which tend to the unjust taking away the life of any;[727] by just defence thereof against violence,[728] patient bearing of the hand of God,[729] quietness of mind,[730] cheerfulness of spirit;[731] a sober use of meat,[732] drink,[733] physic,[734] sleep,[735] labour,[736] and recreations;[737] by charitable thoughts,[738] love,[739] compassion,[740] meekness, gentleness, kindness;[741] peaceable,[742] mild and courteous speeches and behaviour;[743] forbearance, readiness to be reconciled, patient bearing and forgiving of injuries, and requiting good for evil;[744] comforting and succouring the distressed and protecting and defending the innocent.[745]

Q. 136. What are the sins forbidden in the sixth commandment?
A. The sins forbidden in the sixth commandment are, all taking away the life of ourselves,[746] or of others,[747] except in case of public justice,[748] lawful war,[749] or necessary defence;[750] the neglecting or withdrawing the lawful and necessary means of preservation of life;[751] sinful anger,[752] hatred,[753] envy,[754] desire of revenge;[755] all excessive passions,[756] distracting cares;[757] immoderate use of meat, drink,[758] labor,[759] and recreations;[760] provoking words,[761] oppression,[762] quarreling,[763] striking, wounding,[764] and whatsoever else tends to the destruction of the life of any.[765]

 

[Grymir]

OOHH! I thought his cow was a typo. I thought he meant cov for covenant. MOO!

 

[KMK]

Thanks, Chris! I love the part about the two greatest commandments of Jesus being the 'summary of the summary'!

 

[holyfool33]

No I wouldn't say it is Antinomian any more then when a NCT proponent says Christ is the law giver it just means that the Decalogue has been replaced with the higher law of Christ Moo and Resinger explain this a lot better then I could.