James White

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SolaSaint

SolaSaint

Puritan Board Sophomore
I have been listening to the Dividing Line by James White lately and I have found him to be overly harsh with many who don't line up with him theologically. I really like him and his stand for the truth and in the past have always enjoyed his apologetic approach but he really seems to blast some of the top apologists in Christianity when they don't line up with him exactly. He blasted William L. Craig last week for a comment made in jest about a debate opponent becoming a Christian. He roughed up Michael Licona this week on his new book on the Resurrection about using non cannonical literature. He has really bashed Giesler lately and I agree with him on standing up to him, but he is really taking it to an extreme by using harsh rhetoric. Poking fun at Giesler an Caner won't win too many to the faith or the cause of apologetics.

Don't get me wrong, I'm an apologist and I do like James White but I think he is the one being unbiblical lately in his attack of other Christians. We don't need to bash each other but come in love and edification. I know White has tried to get Giesler to reply and I'm not sure where he is at with that, but when is it right or allowable to get ugly with anyone, especially a believer?

Anyone have an opinion either way on this. Am I wrong or has James gone a little too far?

"Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels." 2 Tim 2:23--I don't know if his quarrels can be considered foolish, but in the eyes of those he attacks I'm sure they do. I pray he will tone it down for the sake of Christand His church.
 
I've heard him debate and agree, but on his Dividing Line show he sure has been hard on a few brothers in Christ. What did you debate on with him?
 
I have only been listening to him for a little over a year, but he seems to have gone from "bold" to a bit more "shrill" lately. However, given the lack of decorum showed by the Caners, they deserved both barrels, In my humble opinion. Still, I appreciate his ministry, and am looking forward to seeing him in NOLA next month. I do wish he would dial down the rhetoric a bit.
 
I listen to the Dividing Line every week, and have for about 3 or 4 months now. And I've went back to last October listening to old episodes. Personally, I think he takes a very humble approach. I think the reason he gets a little agitated sometimes is because I think he gets frustrated with fellow believers who make Christians look like a bunch of imbeciles. Like William Lane Craig's comment...I thought was a pretty stupid comment that should've never been said...in jest or not. And personally, it didn't sound like in jest to me...but that's a matter of opinion. And with Geisler and Caner, again...when they say stuff that's directly contradictory to Scripture, lie and cover up stuff, write books and responses to books that are inaccurate, twist things to make themselves look good and purposely refuse to respond to calls for clarification and/or when they do respond indirectly, they again...twist things. I think White has reason to be a little more stern with them. If you're going to distort things, misrepresent what Scripture teaches, etc, etc, then you need to man up and defend what you are saying or sit down and keep quiet. Geisler especially does everything he can to avoid White at all costs and never has made any meaningful response in my opinion, while continuing to spew the same ol' inconsistencies.

All that to say...my personal opinion, and that's all that it is, is that White seems very humble and very kind and respectful as far as I can tell. And when he does get uptight and more forceful, it's because other Christians say or write ridiculous things and refuse to defend their stances. And as for that 2 Timothy passage, I really don't think that comes into play here (not that it can't though). White is definitely not being foolish or ignorant in what he is discussing or defending. And just because Geisler or Caner says or thinks it's foolish doesn't mean that all of the sudden White is in the wrong for saying it. If we stop defending the faith every time some person of another view thinks we are being foolish or trying to start a quarrel, then we might as well pack up the whole realm of apologetics and call it quits. Yes, we should do it in a respectful manner in a way to reflect good on Christ and His church. And this is where personal opinion comes in...but I think White is being respectful and reflecting very well on Christ and His church. (But please don't take this as me trying to attempt to belittle your opinion). :)
 
My experience with Dr. White is that he sometimes seems to "tense up" when he is directly challenged (or when he gets particularly "agitated," as Matt observes above). But that is something that plagues me as well.

My one anecdote about Dr. White is that I met him on an Alpha and Omega cruise back in 2006. At the end of the cruise, I went up to him and told him how much I appreciated his ministry, etc. Then I made a comment/joke that I soon regretted making. I had once made a joke in his chat channel about a cruise years before that -- I had said (as a joke of course) that I would debate him during the cruise on mode of baptism; if I won, I would get a free cruise, and if I lost, I would have to swim home. I repeated that story to him, and I could see him instantly tense up and become defensive. That was not my intention at all, and I've never forgotten it.

But, in his defense, he did agree to pose for a photo with me right after that.

white1xv0.jpg
 
I love listening to the DL. Can you imagine the toll it takes on a person, who confronts and debates (and does so very fairly, in my opinion) constantly Mormons, Islam, JW's, those antagonistic to the Reformed Faith, Roman Catholics, all while being personally maligned by many of those? Plus, he spends a ton of time sitting on a little bicycle seat for tons of miles in the Arizona heat! Give our brother a break, LOL! He is passionate, and that sometimes can come across as being harsh, but I don't think that comes from a lack of love. I have even heard him express, what seemed to me, to be genuine concern for the health of Dave Hunt. I have been blessed by his ministry.
 
I hear you all and I love his stance on the faith and agree with him doctrinally, but to call him humble and respectfull? I haven't heard that lately. If he wants someone to debate he's not going to attract them with poking fun at them and belittling them. Maybe his style is popular with people today, but popularity isn't what should motivate him. I'll keep listeneing, maybe I just caught him on a couple of bad days, I know I have them.
 
Dr. White is in the cross hairs of every wing nut cultist, intellectual moron and more recently, unfriendly Muslim out there. All that considered he handles himself well. I find him funny and Christ exalting.
 
It's really been a long time since I've listened to the Dividing Line, and it's been a year since I've visited the chat channel (and 4 years since I was a regular op there). So I can't speak for what the DL or chat channel are like currently. I will say this, that one of the reasons I left was that I increasingly noticed boldness turning into harshness, primarily in my own heart and life, as well as in others.

It's easy to lose proper perspective when we immerse ourselves in the study of apologetics. There can come a point when you start delighting more in defending the truth than in the truth itself, or, most importantly, the Giver of that truth. I found myself reading the Bible for what it doesn't say rather than for what it does say. I also found that it's easy to make mountains out of molehills (as well as molehills out of mountains.) Apologetics has its place, but it isn't the whole of the Christian life. And that's what I was making it in my own life.

So we should pray for Dr. White, as well as ourselves, that we would have hearts that increasingly love Christ, His truth, our brethren, and the lost enough to speak the truth, but always in love, and know when to make an issue an issue, and when to let it go.

---------- Post added at 10:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 PM ----------
Marrow Man said:
My one anecdote about Dr. White is that I met him on an Alpha and Omega cruise back in 2006. At the end of the cruise, I went up to him and told him how much I appreciated his ministry, etc. Then I made a comment/joke that I soon regretted making. I had once made a joke in his chat channel about a cruise years before that -- I had said (as a joke of course) that I would debate him during the cruise on mode of baptism; if I won, I would get a free cruise, and if I lost, I would have to swim home. I repeated that story to him, and I could see him instantly tense up and become defensive. That was not my intention at all, and I've never forgotten it.
Click to expand...

I imagine he's used to hearing all kinds of people say, "Can you debate me on issue x?" And the issue of baptism seems to be somewhat of a sticking issue- it's not his favorite to debate, since he has a lot of friends attached to his ministry that are paedobaptist. And he admittedly tends to be "in the zone" a lot, and sadly I think this can cause undue tension and make a simple joke seem like a challenge.

At least you sprinkled him with humor and didn't immerse him in it ;-)
 
Marrow Man said:
My experience with Dr. White is that he sometimes seems to "tense up" when he is directly challenged (or when he gets particularly "agitated," as Matt observes above). But that is something that plagues me as well.

My one anecdote about Dr. White is that I met him on an Alpha and Omega cruise back in 2006. At the end of the cruise, I went up to him and told him how much I appreciated his ministry, etc. Then I made a comment/joke that I soon regretted making. I had once made a joke in his chat channel about a cruise years before that -- I had said (as a joke of course) that I would debate him during the cruise on mode of baptism; if I won, I would get a free cruise, and if I lost, I would have to swim home. I repeated that story to him, and I could see him instantly tense up and become defensive. That was not my intention at all, and I've never forgotten it.

But, in his defense, he did agree to pose for a photo with me right after that.

white1xv0.jpg
Click to expand...

Love that Georgia Southern shirt!
 
Although it may well be the case that White is doing better than average for the amount of flak, criticism, and negative feedback he endures, it could still be true that he's being overly harsh. I would at least recommend balancing him with someone who is far gentler in their approach, especially for people who are still learning and developing.

I have seen one young man who overdosed on the Dividing Line and became incredibly hostile even to his friends and family over points of disagreement (not just theological ones). He took Dr. White's combative style and ran with it, taking it far further than White himself would have.
 
God has used Dr. White tremendously in my discovery of Reformed Theology. He, probably more than any other, was one of the biggest influences in my becoming Reformed, and I still enjoy his ministry immensely. But, as one who listens to the Dividing Line every week, I must admit that have have noticed that he has become rather harsh in his dealings with certain people. Sometimes I agree with how he treats certain people, other times I believe he could show much more grace. One thing I am sure of is that his job is very difficult and we should all pray for him.
 
I wonder if folks considered John Knox to be increasingly bold or harsh in his day? Seriously. I don't attempt to say Dr. White is a modern day John Knox, but for both, I surmise the pressure of being a high profile apologist who cares supremely for the God revealed in Scripture (the SOLAS) may take its toll on...a redeemed MAN! (The Peter/Malchus incident oddly comes to mind.)

Whatever the view of these recent incidents, Dr.White has brought clarity to them. Having listened to him for years, he has helped me see the sense of scripture to guide me in how I assess the things in this world.

MarieP, I can appreciate the fact that you recognize boldness vs harshness. I think both of those can also be contrasted to "righteous indignation." I think we ought to utterly (and openly) despise much of what passes for Christian thought and preaching and expose it. However, warnings apply as they would to firearms: "If untrained, put that thing down before you hurt someone." Dr. White knows how to wield the weapon and I have much to learn from men like him so that I am not merely harsh but actually effective in using the "weapons of our warfare" 2Cor 10:4.

I find it interesting that atheists who critique Christian apologists rarely, if ever, mention Dr. White. They seem to focus on W.L. Craig, J.P. Moreland, Plantinga etc.

In any case, fight on! Dr. White.
 
I would agree that he is sometimes a bit harsh, but he is also the receipient of an enormous amount of abuse. I recall the email exchange between him and Ergun Caner where Dr. White chided Caner for spelling Arminian "Armenian". Dr. White sarcastically replied that Armenia was a country. Now, should the president of a major seminary with an earned doctorate be able to spell Arminian? Yes, but it was still unneccesary. Regardless, Dr. White is fighting the good fight even if he is sometimes less than charitable, and most of us will never know what it is like to face the kind of vitriol that he does on a daily basis.
 
Tim, perhaps James didn't want it on his conscience if you were gobbled up by a great white shark on your swim home.

sent from my most excellent Motorola Atrix.
 
I've never to my knowledge heard Dividing Line, but I have read James White's work and appreciate it very much, particularly with regard to addressing the KJV only controversy.

Granted, he may need a little more gracious seasoning with his rhetoric, but then again even Luther could be sharp tongued.
 
I appreciate James' work and support it with a monthly donation.

Rather than gossip about his imperfections we could contact him via his website or call him up. James is not perfect but I dare say he handles the spiritual attack he is constantly under better than most would. It's easy to theorize about how one would act all the time until you've been the regular victim of vicious and constant spiritual attack.

James knows who His Savior is and I'm confident that Christ doesn't need our gossip toward the end of James' sanctification.
 
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