Jesus Embalmed?

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I don't think example should be turned into doctrine. Jesus was buried because that's what was done with dead bodies at that time. It's arguably the easiest and cheapest way to dispose of a corpse--or was, until cremation became widely available--and is why most of the dead in all ages were buried.
If God required that Christians be buried after death instead of disposed of otherwise He would have issued a command.
This has been an insightful discussion thus far. My own view aligns much with what Sean stated in post 21 as well as Jack's post (22). Although the end may be the same whether it be intentional or unintentional--turned to dust by cremation, lost in the ocean, lost somewhere on land and scattered about a localized area of the earth--the motivation of what happened to get there matters (as it seems to me to be much the way the Lord regards our actions--he looks not at the end result, but what happened internally within us that drove us to that end). The attitude of "well, it doesn't matter because some people are lost at sea so why should I care if when I die--not lost at sea--I tell my family to scatter my ashes over the ocean". Well, it does matter because God providentially did not determine for your body to be lost at sea so you should not treat your body as though it had been. That appears to me to be having a flippant attitude regarding God's providential direction of one's life.

For my own experiential actions in this area, I had my husband cremated. He passed away unexpectedly with no savings or life insurance that I knew of (me in my late 30s did not have an enormous amount of savings--still a small remainder of student loans, just bought a house, etc.). We had not discussed this matter in the course of our short time together. I was overwhelmed with grief and loss. When I talked to my pastor, he asked what I wanted to do about the burial. I said I didn't have a clear understanding of what my beloved wanted done with his body; I said I had a vague notion that he would prefer to be buried, not cremated but I really didn't know. My pastor responded that he really would care now and that cremation was of course much cheaper (something to that effect, I do not recall the exact words). I believe I shot his brother a text asking him if he knew of my husband's preferences and he did not give a clear answer either, basically saying he did not recall a strong preference either.

So that is why I went with cremation. I think I would have preferred the testimony of a burial, but my husband and I were always practicalists (I really feel that should be a word!) with finances. I imagine if we were able to live a fantasy, if I had asked him then what I should do, he would have told me to go with cremation. And since I made this decision for my husband's body, I feel convicted to do the same to me (and I even have an urn all ready--both of ours on my gel fireplace mantel. Also, when I die both our urns will be placed in a burial plot that I have purchased already).

If this is not the biblically right thing to do (my pastor sure did not feel cremation was un-biblical) then I pray that God will understand my circumstances (especially my overwhelming grief not enabling me to ponder with great depth on such things and giving way very easily to other people's--those I trust and look to for advice--very reasonable suggestion) and grant me forgiveness in this [and that it would in no way affect my husband's eternal state--of course it wouldn't!, but like for instance in some fantastical way those who were cremated get a "less glorified" body (that seems quite a far-fetched idea when I actually write it out!) since I made that decision for him].

After all was said and done, I did have concerns about my choice (as probably is evidenced by my lengthy explanation in the last couple paragraphs)--like maybe I should have went with burial instead. But, I must place my concerns at the feet of the Lord now and leave them there.
 
You mean like worshipping on Sunday instead of Saturday?
You mean like the direct binding of the conscience to believe in the Trinity?
Are we commanded to believe that truth and binding authority can “by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture?”
Is there an explicit example of a woman eating the Lord’s Supper?
Here's one for a "Confessional Baptist." Where is it commanded to withhold the Covenant sign from our children?
Is there a command to become a member of the Church?
Q. How did Jesus prove to the Sadducees that there is a resurrection from the dead?
A. Jesus deduced this truth from Scripture.
Matthew 22:31-33​
But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.
Can you prove from the New Testament that bestiality is forbidden?
Similarly, how do we know which commands of the Old Testament are (or are not) binding in the New?
I could go on.
Certainly there is good and necessary consequence for some things--I'm not trying to deny that. However I don't believe there is good and necessary consequence to deduce that dead Christians should be buried rather than disposed of otherwise.
If I were to cremate my father's remains, would it be a sin? Are you prepared to say that any other form of corpse disposal than burying is sinful? That's a long way from simply seeing burial as an ordinary, historic method of dealing with the dead.
I don't think it will serve the purpose of this thread to discuss the subjects of baptism here. That subject has the power to derail just about any thread.
I don't want to make you upset, Ed--I just don't believe that Scripture gives warrant to dogmatize about methods of corpse disposal.
 
This has been an insightful discussion thus far. My own view aligns much with what Sean stated in post 21 as well as Jack's post (22). Although the end may be the same whether it be intentional or unintentional--turned to dust by cremation, lost in the ocean, lost somewhere on land and scattered about a localized area of the earth--the motivation of what happened to get there matters (as it seems to me to be much the way the Lord regards our actions--he looks not at the end result, but what happened internally within us that drove us to that end). The attitude of "well, it doesn't matter because some people are lost at sea so why should I care if when I die--not lost at sea--I tell my family to scatter my ashes over the ocean". Well, it does matter because God providentially did not determine for your body to be lost at sea so you should not treat your body as though it had been. That appears to me to be having a flippant attitude regarding God's providential direction of one's life.

For my own experiential actions in this area, I had my husband cremated. He passed away unexpectedly with no savings or life insurance that I knew of (me in my late 30s did not have an enormous amount of savings--still a small remainder of student loans, just bought a house, etc.). We had not discussed this matter in the course of our short time together. I was overwhelmed with grief and loss. When I talked to my pastor, he asked what I wanted to do about the burial. I said I didn't have a clear understanding of what my beloved wanted done with his body; I said I had a vague notion that he would prefer to be buried, not cremated but I really didn't know. My pastor responded that he really would care now and that cremation was of course much cheaper (something to that effect, I do not recall the exact words). I believe I shot his brother a text asking him if he knew of my husband's preferences and he did not give a clear answer either, basically saying he did not recall a strong preference either.

So that is why I went with cremation. I think I would have preferred the testimony of a burial, but my husband and I were always practicalists (I really feel that should be a word!) with finances. I imagine if we were able to live a fantasy, if I had asked him then what I should do, he would have told me to go with cremation. And since I made this decision for my husband's body, I feel convicted to do the same to me (and I even have an urn all ready--both of ours on my gel fireplace mantel. Also, when I die both our urns will be placed in a burial plot that I have purchased already).

If this is not the biblically right thing to do (my pastor sure did not feel cremation was un-biblical) then I pray that God will understand my circumstances (especially my overwhelming grief not enabling me to ponder with great depth on such things and giving way very easily to other people's--those I trust and look to for advice--very reasonable suggestion) and grant me forgiveness in this [and that it would in no way affect my husband's eternal state--of course it wouldn't!, but like for instance in some fantastical way those who were cremated get a "less glorified" body (that seems quite a far-fetched idea when I actually write it out!) since I made that decision for him].

After all was said and done, I did have concerns about my choice (as probably is evidenced by my lengthy explanation in the last couple paragraphs)--like maybe I should have went with burial instead. But, I must place my concerns at the feet of the Lord now and leave them there.
Dear sister,
The note that I and others have been sounding is that it matters not a whit what you did with the remains: if your late husband was saved he is in Christ's presence right now, and his body will be raised incorruptible on the last day. Be at peace; have your remains cremated when you go; remember that God is not the God of the dead but of the living.
 
Ed--I just don't believe that Scripture gives warrant to dogmatize about methods of corpse disposal.

I just have to face it. I didn't make a convert out of you. And you are not "making me upset."
If you can, in good conscience, burn your father to ashes, well--what can I say. Maybe someone else would want to cast their dead wife in a field to be eaten by birds and wild dogs. But, in the Bible, burning a dead body with fire is the ultimate curse. It is as far as you can go.

I am reminded of the judgment of Jezebel in 2 Kings 9:35-37

But when they went to bury her, they found no more of her than the skull and the feet and the palms of her hands. When they came back and told him, he said, “This is the word of the Lord, which he spoke by his servant Elijah the Tishbite: ‘In the territory of Jezreel the dogs shall eat the flesh of Jezebel, and the corpse of Jezebel shall be as dung on the face of the field in the territory of Jezreel, so that no one can say, This is Jezebel.’”

Here was the prophecy of Elijah against Ahab and Jezebel recorded in 2 Kings 9 - It seems that Elijah, or rather God considered burning a dead body with fire a dreadful curse which foreshadowed to everlasting burning of the damned in hellfire.

1 Kings 21:17-24
Then the word of the Lord came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying, “Arise, go down to meet Ahab king of Israel, who is in Samaria; behold, he is in the vineyard of Naboth, where he has gone to take possession. And you shall say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord , “Have you killed and also taken possession?”’ And you shall say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord : “In the place where dogs licked up the blood of Naboth shall dogs lick your own blood.”’” Ahab said to Elijah, “Have you found me, O my enemy?” He answered, “I have found you, because you have sold yourself to do what is evil in the sight of the Lord . Behold, I will bring disaster upon you. I will utterly burn you up, and will cut off from Ahab every male, bond or free, in Israel. And I will make your house like the house of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, and like the house of Baasha the son of Ahijah, for the anger to which you have provoked me, and because you have made Israel to sin. And of Jezebel the Lord also said, ‘The dogs shall eat Jezebel within the walls of Jezreel.’ Anyone belonging to Ahab who dies in the city the dogs shall eat, and anyone of his who dies in the open country the birds of the heavens shall eat.”

Burning the dead with fire is always used in terms of judgment--final judgment. I think it represents the ultimate judgment of God on those He pours out His wrath on.

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Revelation 18:8
For this reason, her plagues will come in a single day, death and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for mighty is the Lord God who has judged her.”

Leviticus 20:14
If a man takes a woman and her mother also, it is depravity; he and they shall be burned with fire, that there may be no depravity among you.

Micah 1:7
All her carved images shall be beaten to pieces, all her wages shall be burned with fire, and all her idols I will lay waste, for from the fee of a prostitute she gathered them, and to the fee of a prostitute, they shall return.

Judges 12:1
The men of Ephraim were called to arms, and they crossed to Zaphon and said to Jephthah, “Why did you cross over to fight against the Ammonites and did not call us to go with you? We will burn your house over you with fire.”

And last but not least.

Matthew 3:11-12
“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

But I am done. You will hear no more from me on this matter.

Ed
 
Jesus was buried because that's what was done with dead bodies at that time. It's arguably the easiest and cheapest way to dispose of a corpse--or was, until cremation became widely available--and is why most of the dead in all ages were buried.
This statement is just factually and historically false. What different civilizations did with their dead was invariably bound up with their religious beliefs about the afterlife. It was never simply pragmatic. In fact, civilizations have almost always made disposing of their dead much more expensive than it needed to be. And the Jews were no exception. There is a large body of ancient rabbinical literature on the theological reasons undergirding Jewish burial practice. You really need to do more reading in this area before making assertions like the one above. You simply do not know what you are talking about.
 
This statement is just factually and historically false. What different civilizations did with their dead was invariably bound up with their religious beliefs about the afterlife. It was never simply pragmatic. In fact, civilizations have almost always made disposing of their dead much more expensive than it needed to be. And the Jews were no exception. There is a large body of ancient rabbinical literature on the theological reasons undergirding Jewish burial practice. You really need to do more reading in this area before making assertions like the one above. You simply do not know what you are talking about.
The beauty of Christianity is that we are freed from the superstitions and fears about the afterlife that plague the pagans and make them exceedingly careful about funeral rites, ceremonies, mummifications, grandiose mausoleums, etc. We KNOW what happens after death; we know that whatever may befall our mortal remains, God will raise them up incorruptible. It is the Christian's great hope and glory that he will forever live with Christ in a resurrected body.
But the Bible gives no instruction concerning burial--we see examples of customs, but God does not state HOW a Christian corpse ought to be disposed of, and that disposal does not alter by one iota the status of the resurrected body. This insistence for something that is a matter indifferent comes very close to the superstition that we abominate in the pagans.
 
The beauty of Christianity is that we are freed from the superstitions and fears about the afterlife that plague the pagans and make them exceedingly careful about funeral rites, ceremonies, mummifications, grandiose mausoleums, etc.
That is of course true. But it's a red herring. That isn't what I was addressing. You stated that at the time of our Lord's burial, it was "arguably the easiest and cheapest way to dispose of a corpse—or was, until cremation became widely available—and is why most of the dead in all ages were buried."

That statement is demonstrably false. It rests on nothing but your bear assertion. Making claims about ancient Jewish burial practices which have no basis in fact only serve to undermine your credibility.
 
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Jesus was buried because that's what was done with dead bodies at that time. It's arguably the easiest and cheapest way to dispose of a corpse--or was, until cremation became widely available--and is why most of the dead in all ages were buried.
Burning a body has ALWAYS been the "easiest and cheapest" way of disposed of it.
 
Burning a body has ALWAYS been the "easiest and cheapest" way of disposed of it.
Isn't this the bare assertion you accused me of further upthread? I would argue that digging a hole or finding a cave and chucking a corpse into them is far easier than completely reducing a body to ashes. Someone I knew cremated her cat at a campfire once, and it took A LOT of fuel. In desert areas where fuel is not super plentiful, graves, tombs, and catacombs have to be the quickest, cheapest, easiest way. However much one adds expense by ceremony or grave-dressing or desiring a nice piece of real estate or a casket/box/sarcophagus, plain burial is easier than the other options.
Unless you're at sea, when all it costs is some weights to sink the corpse. But not everyone has a boat....
 
Our bodies are Christ’s. The body of a Christian, no less than his soul, remains united to Christ in death. That body is only asleep, not dead. Those facts ought to shake us a bit and cause us to soberly consider what we ought to do with, and to, our bodies when we die. They’re not ours to do whatever we want with.
 
Isn't this the bare assertion you accused me of further upthread? I would argue that digging a hole or finding a cave and chucking a corpse into them is far easier than completely reducing a body to ashes. Someone I knew cremated her cat at a campfire once, and it took A LOT of fuel. In desert areas where fuel is not super plentiful, graves, tombs, and catacombs have to be the quickest, cheapest, easiest way. However much one adds expense by ceremony or grave-dressing or desiring a nice piece of real estate or a casket/box/sarcophagus, plain burial is easier than the other options.
Unless you're at sea, when all it costs is some weights to sink the corpse. But not everyone has a boat....
I'll grant your point. But the fact remains, ancient burial practices were not primarily shaped by pragmatic concerns.
 
The beauty of Christianity is that we are freed from the superstitions and fears about the afterlife that plague the pagans and make them exceedingly careful about funeral rites, ceremonies, mummifications, grandiose mausoleums, etc. We KNOW what happens after death; we know that whatever may befall our mortal remains, God will raise them up incorruptible. It is the Christian's great hope and glory that he will forever live with Christ in a resurrected body.
But the Bible gives no instruction concerning burial--we see examples of customs, but God does not state HOW a Christian corpse ought to be disposed of, and that disposal does not alter by one iota the status of the resurrected body. This insistence for something that is a matter indifferent comes very close to the superstition that we abominate in the pagans.
I'm reminded of other choices that Christians make, where they make appeal to the Bible respecting "best practices." These--and maybe burial is one of them--could be "best," certainly those seldom can be said to be unbiblical (though care should be taken in evaluation, as many examples in the Bible are sinful not exemplary); but just because a thing has an approved example found in the Bible, it is not necessarily the only practice that comports with Scripture. The most that might be said for such a biblical example taken by itself is: it might be preferable. Among other reasons, there could be a "witness" condition that is lost or gained through inattention/attention to biblical example.

We should be careful not to claim too much, when we judge a practice we aim to copy (in some form) from the pages of the Bible. Someone who does not adopt our conviction--absent the command of Christ--is not sinning. Sins are tied to the law (will of precept) of God, and not at root to history or nature. Wisdom, tradition, common sense and natural "law" can advise people; but only a moral imperative can properly convict them of sin, righteousness, and judgment. We must beware adding moral imperatives to the table of our duties beyond God's express dictate.

Sunday as the day of worship was mentioned as a NT practice most of us believe is ordained by God, in no way an option. Yet, it is alleged there is no command to back up such a "moral requirement." I beg to disagree. There is exegetical work involved, however the foundation of the view that this practice is mandated, and therefore it is sin to neglect it and such neglect incurs judgment, remains the 4th Commandment, not to be severed from the 2nd. We adopt the day-change by divine, not human authority. We simply recognize the first day is the day he chose to make his meeting-day (along with prophetic anticipation of the change). The bottom line is, we've not gone to examples to establish moral duty. "There remains a sabbath-keeping for the people of God," Heb.4:9

As sabbath-observance is tied to a wider concern with duty toward God, in everything that has to do with worship (as opposed to the majority of human activity) we are extra-careful to find biblical justification--because of the 2C, RPW--and we look to examples found in the NT to allow us an added advantage of historic witness to implementation of the church's worship, government and discipline. Now, compare our attitude toward that highly restrictive set of ecclesiastical practices that impose, with the freedom of the Christian so much prized in other areas. We should be hesitant to define one way of doing things as "the moral way, and therefore required," to the exclusion of all other ways. The historic pattern of Christian liberty has (rightly) recognized that generally there exists a multiplicity of "moral ways" to do lawful things, all beside the restrictive ordinances of the church (the RPW being also conducive to Christian liberty).

We always connect compulsion and prohibition (what duty God requires of man) to the moral law and Christ the lawgiver. As for the rest of "what man is to believe concerning God," we accept all he has revealed about himself and his acts in the Bible, front to back, nothing doubting. Facts are facts.
 
Our bodies are Christ’s. The body of a Christian, no less than his soul, remains united to Christ in death. That body is only asleep, not dead. Those facts ought to shake us a bit and cause us to soberly consider what we ought to do with, and to, our bodies when we die. They’re not ours to do whatever we want with.
Jeri, the bodies of Christians are only said to be asleep because of the certainty of the resurrection. They are, however, really and truly dead, just as Christ being really and truly dead for three days is one of the most important tenets of our religion. The historic creeds attest to that; the Bible asserts it. The apostle Paul said that the body without the spirit is dead. Let us not deny the reality of bodily death, even as we rejoice in the hope of the resurrection of the dead.
United to Christ, the martyrs scorned to care what sinners did to their bodies even as they were engulfed in flames or torn apart by wild beasts. They knew what some here seem to have forgotten--that they belonged to Christ, body and soul, and whatever happened to their bodies in or after death was of no consequence whatever.
 
United to Christ, the martyrs scorned to care what sinners did to their bodies even as they were engulfed in flames or torn apart by wild beasts. They knew what some here seem to have forgotten--that they belonged to Christ, body and soul, and whatever happened to their bodies in or after death was of no consequence whatever.
Yes, our bodies are God’s to meet death by whatever means God predetermines. It’s what we choose to do to the body after death that’s at issue, I believe.
 
They are, however, really and truly dead, just as Christ being really and truly dead for three days is one of the most important tenets of our religion.
Pardon me, brother, but that "tenet of our religion" doesn't merely say that Christ was dead, it states plainly that was, "was crucified, dead, and buried". Is the burial of Christ not "one of the most important tenets of our religion"? If not, this seems like special pleading.
 
Pardon me, brother, but that "tenet of our religion" doesn't merely say that Christ was dead, it states plainly that was, "was crucified, dead, and buried". Is the burial of Christ not "one of the most important tenets of our religion"? If not, this seems like special pleading.

What a great comeback.
But I think it's time to leave Ben alone.

I have one more verse that will end whole discussion.
Ben was looking for a command to bury your dead. Well I found one.

Matthew 8:22
But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

So there.:cool:

(I just couldn't resist)
 
Pardon me, brother, but that "tenet of our religion" doesn't merely say that Christ was dead, it states plainly that was, "was crucified, dead, and buried". Is the burial of Christ not "one of the most important tenets of our religion"? If not, this seems like special pleading.
Sure, Christ was buried, which is also important. But my point to Jeri is that Christ was really and truly dead.
There is no reason, as I've said before, to aspire to the exact same experience as Christ, nor does what befell Him regulate what we do. As a baptist, you should know that we identify with Christ's burial in baptism ("Buried with Christ, raised to walk in newness of life") not in the way that our bodies are disposed of after death.
 
What a great comeback.
But I think it's time to leave Ben alone.

I have one more verse that will end whole discussion.
Ben was looking for a command to bury your dead. Well I found one.

Matthew 8:22
But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

So there.:cool:

(I just couldn't resist)
Nice. :rofl:
I thought you were leaving, or I would have responded to your last post....
I'm glad you can still joke about this, though. :)
 
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