Mark Driscoll in NYT Magazine

[ColdSilverMoon]

Pretty interesting read. There are plenty of things not to like about Driscoll's ministry, but give credit where credit is due - he's solid on a lot of fundamentals. Of interest to this board is the article's treatment of Calvinism and the Puritans, including this statement on Calvinism: "a theology that makes Pat Robertson look warm and fuzzy." I must admit I chuckled out loud at that line...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/magazine/11punk-t.html?_r=1&emc=eta1

 

[Galatians220]

My boss (whom I originally met at church a couple of years ago) gave me that article yesterday. He ran it through the copy machine and handed it to me; he said, "Here's something you'll be interested in." He was under the impression that I would be in favor of women in church leadership, etc., and that I was not a Calvinist. I just thanked him and told him that I did, indeed, agree with the doctrines of grace and I did not support women in leadership positions in church. He just said, "Hmmm..." and walked away. As this is my (very part-time) job, I didn't want to get into a big discussion as I prefer to keep my Calvinist beliefs - but not my Christianity! - under wraps at work. Not that you can make a distinction, one from the other, for I don't believe you can, but for "professional purposes," I think you can be a known follower of Jesus Christ without exploring the five points, etc. in detail with unbelievers.

Thanks so much for posting this link, Mason!

Margaret

 

[FenderPriest]

Margaret, by "women in leadership" do you mean women pastors/deacons/etc.? I'm just a little confused because one of the things Driscoll gets hit all the time for is a firm stance against women pastors.

 

[Dearly Bought]

Pretty interesting read. There are plenty of things not to like about Driscoll's ministry, but give credit where credit is due - he's solid on a lot of fundamentals. Of interest to this board is the article's treatment of Calvinism and the Puritans, including this statement on Calvinism: "a theology that makes Pat Robertson look warm and fuzzy." I must admit I chuckled out loud at that line...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/magazine/11punk-t.html?_r=1&emc=eta1

He's not solid on:

• doctrine of worship
• soteriology (Amyraldian)
• ecclesiology
• doctrine of the sacraments

Those are a few areas that I can remember off the top of my head. This article may well be a hack job, but Driscoll isn't a Calvinist by any stretch of the imagination.

Oh, for a day when "Calvinist" once again means more than predestinarian...

 

[Jon 316]

"Those are a few areas that I can remember off the top of my head. This article may well be a hack job, but Driscoll isn't a Calvinist by any stretch of the imagination."

Why do you say that Driscoll is not a Calvinist? I'm just curious. I'm new to PB and this is my 1st post. I'm also new to reformed theology, however Driscoll was one of the people who led me on the path so to speak?

I would say that Driscoll is one of the most effective leaders in todays church who holds reformed theology while being effective in mission.

 

[ReformedChapin]

"Those are a few areas that I can remember off the top of my head. This article may well be a hack job, but Driscoll isn't a Calvinist by any stretch of the imagination."

Why do you say that Driscoll is not a Calvinist? I'm just curious. I'm new to PB and this is my 1st post. I'm also new to reformed theology, however Driscoll was one of the people who led me on the path so to speak?

I would say that Driscoll is one of the most effective leaders in todays church who holds reformed theology while being effective in mission.

The Reformed tend to classify someone as reformed or calvinistic if they hold to a confession of faith. Driscoll pretty much has his own system of belief nothing that holds to any historic reformed confession.

 

[Dearly Bought]

"Those are a few areas that I can remember off the top of my head. This article may well be a hack job, but Driscoll isn't a Calvinist by any stretch of the imagination."

Why do you say that Driscoll is not a Calvinist? I'm just curious. I'm new to PB and this is my 1st post. I'm also new to reformed theology, however Driscoll was one of the people who led me on the path so to speak?

I would say that Driscoll is one of the most effective leaders in todays church who holds reformed theology while being effective in mission.

The short answer is that "Calvinism" or "Reformed" theology encompasses way more than T.U.L.I.P (which Driscoll doesn't even completely affirm).

For a response far better than I could ever attempt, try Muller's excellent essay

Welcome to PB, by the way!

 

[Jon 316]

"The Reformed tend to classify someone as reformed or calvinistic if they hold to a confession of faith. Driscoll pretty much has his own system of belief nothing that holds to any historic reformed confession."

I dont know a great deal about the confessions. What I have read of the westminster confession seems sound to me. Although I am more baptist than presbyterian. I do have a book on the baptist confession somwhere, perhaps I should give that a read.

-----Added 1/13/2009 at 07:03:29 EST-----

oh, thanks Bryan!

 

[ReformedChapin]

"The Reformed tend to classify someone as reformed or calvinistic if they hold to a confession of faith. Driscoll pretty much has his own system of belief nothing that holds to any historic reformed confession."

I dont know a great deal about the confessions. What I have read of the westminster confession seems sound to me. Although I am more baptist than presbyterian. I do have a book on the baptist confession somwhere, perhaps I should give that a read.

-----Added 1/13/2009 at 07:03:29 EST-----

oh, thanks Bryan!

Definitions vary among members as you saw above. I have been researching "reformed people" both in the presbyterian camp and the baptist camp since I am new to reformed theology myself. A known presbyterian our own PBer Dr Clark defined a "reformed person" as someone who holds to a reformed confession while others stick to the very basic TULIP. I'm still working on a definition myself.

 

[Jon 316]

I guess some folk would say I am not 'reformed' then. I agree with the westminster as much as I have read it and understood it. However, my tendency has been to emphasise scripture, or at the most T.U.L.I.P...

LOL I'm neo reformed

I am still working the whole thing out...

 

[MrMerlin777]

interesting article

 

[ManleyBeasley]

Usually (for practical purposes) people are considered Calvinists if they hold to the TULIP. They have to be confessional to be considered Reformed. Show Driscoll some kindness. He grew up RC in possibly the most pagan city in the USA. His theology is mostly self taught. Praise God for all the obvious grace that is shown in Mark and pray that God will give more grace to settle the rest. Many of the younger generations (like Mark) have not been raised and trained in Godly homes. We give Luther a lot of wiggle room because there was no one to train him. We should give young Pastors in godless cities some wiggle room too and pray for them.

 

[Jon 316]

MB I like your take on Driscoll

 

[matthew11v25]

Mark is awesome!!!

 

[turmeric]

In the article it says he's toning down some of the swearing, which shows he's still in process, thank God! The article was an interesting read, I'm glad I don't go to that church, however.

 

[Zenas]

Very interesting. I feel for some of the believers there who might have permanent remnants of their godless days and regrets that fall on hard ears, unwilling to look past what was to see what is. I pray that God gives them grace in abundance to grow in all aspects proportionally.

 

[Pergamum]

Interesting. This generation seems to want something authentic and "real" even if less polished or purposely coarse.

If someone wants a "manly" Christianity, go serve in the Middle East and face the consequences instead of using two-bit potty words.

I pray God uses the charisma and energy this guy has for His own glory.

 

[PresbyDane]

Usually (for practical purposes) people are considered Calvinists if they hold to the TULIP. They have to be confessional to be considered Reformed. Show Driscoll some kindness. He grew up RC in possibly the most pagan city in the USA. His theology is mostly self taught. Praise God for all the obvious grace that is shown in Mark and pray that God will give more grace to settle the rest. Many of the younger generations (like Mark) have not been raised and trained in Godly homes. We give Luther a lot of wiggle room because there was no one to train him. We should give young Pastors in godless cities some wiggle room too and pray for them.

I think you are right, but I would like some more information on Driscoll so if anybody knows a good web site or something I would like it.

 

[ManleyBeasley]

Here's his church's web-site. You can watch some of his sermons.

Mars Hill Church

 

[Honor]

Mark Driscoll is my Fav preacher hands down... I think that he messes up but he is also quick to humble himself and apologize... He is in the spotlight A LOT! who among us can say that we would hold up under that kind of scrutiny? I think he does a fantastic job!