I've known plenty of Koreans to do this. I went to a Korean church in Canada where they called it "praying in one voice," even though it is precisely the opposite. It's chaotic.
Mid-Week Prayer Meetings
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Nomos
Puritan Board Freshman
Does that apply to publically directing one's voice to God through song as well? Or does changing pitch and tempo disqualify it as "prayer"?
Ben Zartman
Puritan Board Junior
If everyone is singing the same words in unison, there will be no confusion. If everyone is reciting a creed or the Lord's Prayer in unison, as many Reformed churches do, there is no chaos. It is when everyone is praying out loud simultaneously but saying different words that things get squirrely. How will the unlearned give the Amen at your giving of thanks if he has no idea who said what?
@Tom Hart I bumped into it too several times; what a nightmare! Even one person muttering while another is praying is distracting in the extreme.
Nomos
Puritan Board Freshman
I misinterpreted your original post, probably because I've never heard of a church that practiced multiple people praying out loud at the same time using different words. That seems rather quite strange to me.
Nomos
Puritan Board Freshman
Grant
Puritan Board Graduate
Prayer and singing are different elements of worship and while they may have some overlapping guidelines, they have unique ones as well.
Btw, I am not saying I disagree with those who require the prohibition. Just trying to better understand.
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Nomos
Puritan Board Freshman
Where does Scripture differentiate the guidelines between speaking and singing when directed to God? It's a strange distinction to me and one of the primary problems I have with prohibiting women from praying out loud. It's the same problem I have with EP.
The position seems to be reduced to, "when you change the pitch and tone of the words that come from your mouth, new rules then apply: 1] Women can no longer participate, and 2] You can only sing 'inspired' (paraphrases) from the Psalms.
Grant
Puritan Board Graduate
I don’t really want to get into a rabbit trail.
From Bushell “Songs of Zion” pg.48-49:
Again, I am not looking to debate this. Take it or leave it. Even if not EP, I think Bushell makes a solid point here regarding prayer and song.
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Ben Zartman
Puritan Board Junior
In some congregations, as I've mentioned, the Lord's Prayer is recited in unison by all--men and women together. There is no 'leader,' unless it be the minister who begins the first syllable. Singing also is done together--women should not sing by themselves in the assembly. But ex tempore prayer, by it's nature, requires that only one person speak at a time--otherwise there is confusion. If only one person is praying and the rest listening, it has to be a man, because it is a position of authority.
How is there any authority in asking God to provide or heal or move in some situation? By it's very nature petitioning prayer assumes total dependency on the Lord and complete human inability.
Modern charismatics can turn prayer into authoritative speech, speaking to the devil or speaking things into being and so forth. But that is not what we are referring to. True prayer is dependency on God and without any authority, instead acknowledging that He alone can change situations where we are powerless. There is authority with preaching, and governing the church, but not petitioning prayers.
Ben Zartman
Puritan Board Junior
There is authority because the person praying is leading the congregation in prayer: he is praying on behalf of the congregation; he is representing the congregation as a spokesman to bring their requests corporately before the Throne of Grace.
C. M. Sheffield
Puritan Board Graduate
Yes. Wednesday evenings at 7:30 p.m.
An hour long. We begin with a hymn and brief meditation on some portion of Scripture. Often I will read some excerpt from some worthy to stir us up to take hold of God in prayer.
Then another hymn on that theme.
Then we usually have two periods of prayer. In the first, I read reports from sister churches, missionaries, and ministries. We also pray regularly for our nation, its government, and members of the Armed Forces. I call on different men in the congregation to pray for the different things mentioned.
We only permit the men of the church to lead in corporate prayer. These men will stand in their place and offer prayer for the matter they were given. Each of their prayers are followed by an "Amen" which is then echoed by the congregation.
After these prayers are concluded, I will address prayer concerns related to our own congregation—conversion of the lost friends and family, prayer for God's blessing on his word from week to week, the sick and aged and shut-ins, for marriages and families, etc. Once these have been explained, I will again call on different men in the congregation to pray for the different things mentioned. Then we bow again in prayer and the men will stand in their place and offer prayer for the matter they were given.
When they have concluded their prayers, I will stand and offer a concluding prayer which marks the conclusion of the prayer meeting.
Men who are members in good standing are encouraged to exercise themselves in public prayer (1 Tim. 2:8).
No. To pray publicly is to lead the people of God in prayer. Women are not permitted to speak authoritatively or bear rule in the assemblies of the church.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.—1 Tim. 2:12
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.—1 Cor. 14:34
We do this as well as a family. I encourage my wife and children to pray aloud in the family. But what is appropriate in family devotions may not be permissible or edifying in the public meetings of the church. Asking children to pray in the public prayer meeting I think would be unwise for several reasons. Having women pray would violate the clear precept of Scripture on women's conduct in public worship.
But I do think having the godly men of a congregation voice their supplications is both biblical and unto the great edification of God's people.
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It makes no sense to me that a woman's submission to her husband at home allows her to pray out loud with him on the sofa and not be authoritative or violating that submission, but suddenly on wednesday night if she prays she is leading men and authoritative. I don't see how you can separate the two. I mean is she leading her husband at home or isn't she. Its all the same. Being in a more public gathering doesn't magically change the substance of what is happening.
I asked my husband if he ever heard of this when he went to Westminster in the 70s and he said never, not in the student body or faculty. There was some discussion about possibly losing accreditation because they didn't have women on the Seminary board, and at that time they all agreed about no women elders and pastors (but not necessarily deaconesses), but women praying out loud midweek wasn't even on the radar.
I guess it is a small minority position? Well carry on, and I will enjoy my prayer times with my husband.
I asked my husband if he ever heard of this when he went to Westminster in the 70s and he said never, not in the student body or faculty. There was some discussion about possibly losing accreditation because they didn't have women on the Seminary board, and at that time they all agreed about no women elders and pastors (but not necessarily deaconesses), but women praying out loud midweek wasn't even on the radar.
I guess it is a small minority position? Well carry on, and I will enjoy my prayer times with my husband.
B.L.
Puritan Board Sophomore
I was looking around to see if any NAPARC denominations take an official position on women praying in prayer meetings and wasn't successful, but I did find this Q&A on the topic on the OPC website for what it's worth (underlining is mine).
May women pray in prayer meetings?
Question:
At our women's ministry class we were encouraged by the leader to attend midweek prayer meeting and participate. In discussing this, we encountered many different views on women praying in public. They ranged from women being submissive and only the husband praying to strong convictions that women should pray publicly and participate in prayer at the meetings. Can you give us any guidance on the OPC position on this question?
Answer:
Thank you for your question. There is not an "OPC position" on this question as such. That's the short and easy answer!
There have been a couple of GA study committees over the years that have produced reports that have some relevance to this question. You will find them at the bottom of this page: General Assembly Papers. The last two papers address "Women in Office" and two up from them is a report on "Unordained Persons in Worship." Note the status of such reports: weighty treatises but not part of the Constitution, which is the Bible, the Westminster Standards, and the Book of Church Order.
The reason that I say "some relevance" is because what you reference is prayer meeting, not a worship service, the primary focus of the study committee reports. There are varying views on this, though I think that a book like Noel Week's Sufficiency of Scripture (Banner of Truth) deals well with this sort of question both from the stance of principles and implementation (treating the key texts).
While I believe that 1 Timothy 2, 1 Corinthians 14, and other passages would teach that a women should not officially and publicly teach men or lead in any way in public worship, there is no clear biblical teaching that I see that would forbid a woman from praying in a prayer meeting. Those praying in such settings are neither leading nor teaching. If one thinks that those praying in such venues are leading or teaching, then we'd better not have them.
That having been said—that women may pray in a prayer meeting—that is not to say that women must pray in such settings. My wife never does nor ever would. She is not comfortable praying aloud in such settings and women must never be urged to do this against their wills. My wife prays in our and our family's prayers as well as in women's prayer time. So she does pray aloud with others, but not with men present (other than family members). That is her conviction. This does not mean, however, that women may not pray in such settings.
I trust that this is helpful for you.
Question:
At our women's ministry class we were encouraged by the leader to attend midweek prayer meeting and participate. In discussing this, we encountered many different views on women praying in public. They ranged from women being submissive and only the husband praying to strong convictions that women should pray publicly and participate in prayer at the meetings. Can you give us any guidance on the OPC position on this question?
Answer:
Thank you for your question. There is not an "OPC position" on this question as such. That's the short and easy answer!
There have been a couple of GA study committees over the years that have produced reports that have some relevance to this question. You will find them at the bottom of this page: General Assembly Papers. The last two papers address "Women in Office" and two up from them is a report on "Unordained Persons in Worship." Note the status of such reports: weighty treatises but not part of the Constitution, which is the Bible, the Westminster Standards, and the Book of Church Order.
The reason that I say "some relevance" is because what you reference is prayer meeting, not a worship service, the primary focus of the study committee reports. There are varying views on this, though I think that a book like Noel Week's Sufficiency of Scripture (Banner of Truth) deals well with this sort of question both from the stance of principles and implementation (treating the key texts).
While I believe that 1 Timothy 2, 1 Corinthians 14, and other passages would teach that a women should not officially and publicly teach men or lead in any way in public worship, there is no clear biblical teaching that I see that would forbid a woman from praying in a prayer meeting. Those praying in such settings are neither leading nor teaching. If one thinks that those praying in such venues are leading or teaching, then we'd better not have them.
That having been said—that women may pray in a prayer meeting—that is not to say that women must pray in such settings. My wife never does nor ever would. She is not comfortable praying aloud in such settings and women must never be urged to do this against their wills. My wife prays in our and our family's prayers as well as in women's prayer time. So she does pray aloud with others, but not with men present (other than family members). That is her conviction. This does not mean, however, that women may not pray in such settings.
I trust that this is helpful for you.
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C. M. Sheffield
Puritan Board Graduate
Because the Scriptures explicitly address one but not the other.
Ben Zartman
Puritan Board Junior
At home the woman prays under the authority of her husband--it's as though she is deputized by him to do so. But he cannot deputize her to hold authority over other men--some actions that she may do toward her husband and family under his headship are non-transferable to the broader context of the church where there are other authority structures. I do sincerely hope that you will continue to pray with your husband.
timfost
Puritan Board Senior
If a) one is addressed but not the other, and b) the RPW works off of positive commands, would it then follow that c) women should not pray with their husbands in the absence of an explicit command, assuming that the RPW applies to all worship?
I do think @lynnie makes a fair point about the logic here if indeed prayer publicly offered necessarily assumes authority, and Bruce a fair point as to the reasoning according to the Scriptures in question.
I'm not wanting to debate the issue, but simply trying to understand the logic of the position that doesn't allow women to pray in any public setting within the church.
Thanks!
C. M. Sheffield
Puritan Board Graduate
By that logic, one could argue children ought never to pray in family worship. It could also be argued that fathers (or anyone for that reason) ought not pray or read teach the Bible to their families because they are not ordained ministers.
By this it is illustrated that we own there are different standards applied to public and private worship. What those exactly are is a question worthy of debate. But arguing for an "all or nothing" position seems untenable.
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Ben Zartman
Puritan Board Junior
I think you're putting the RPW where it doesn't belong. Regulated Worship is the formal worship of the people of God on His day. We cannot claim that family worship is the same as the Lord's Day assembly. There is no formal call; no ordinances; no ecclesial discipline...it is a father teaching his family the ways of God and calling on Him for help. It is more....normative, which is why I hesitate to call it worship, and prefer "family devotions" to avoid confusion.
You probably don't mean this the way it sounds. Deputizing a wife and granting her masculine authority is actually something he can never do, not should she accept such a proposition. In fact you can read countless essays out there ( and I don't feel like looking for links) about problems in marriages and churches because men renege on their God given authority and let women rule.
If you truly see prayer aloud as authoritative leading, then she can't do it at home because she can't be deputized, because no husband can or should give his wife the authority in the home bestowed on him by God.
I doubt very much that you are some emasculated guy abdicating his headship in the home, but your semantics sound bad here. I happen to still maintain that if anything, my submission to my husband is more unique than to anyone else, and men and women together submit to the elders within the church. Usurping his authority at home would be more grievous than to lead other men who I am not married to nor made a unique covenantal promise to.
Anyway, I would drop the word deputize, or the concept of men giving women their own authority, if you get into this down the road with people. Thanks.
Ben Zartman
Puritan Board Junior
You misunderstood my meaning. A woman prays in the home under her husband's headship--he is not abnegating his responsibility any more than allowing her to teach the children math is reneging on his responsibility to oversee their education. Responsibility delegated is not responsibility shirked. I'm sorry the word "deputized" riled you. It seems fitting, since no one would say that a sheriff is shirking his duty when he appoints a deputy. But I'll happily use other words if they'll please you better.
I'm not sure, though, why you can't seem to see the difference between the church gathered and the household gathered. They are two different entities, and different rules apply.
U
Username3000
Guest
Where do you get the idea that God’s worship is only regulated in a formal gathering? That implies that God does not care about His worship at any other time.
I just started reading How To Serve God In Private And Public Worship by Puritan John Jackson (edited, and with chapters by Dr. McMahon), and this topic is covered. You should check it out at puritanpublications.com
Here’s a quick quote:
“[T]he worship of God is, namely, a tendering up to God, by Jesus Christ, that honor, homage, and respect that is due from the creature to the Creator...Yes, when you read the Word in private, or meditate on it, or talk with others about it, or when you instruct others in it, by way of catechizing or examination or the like; you worship God so far as you depend on him for such grace and mercy for yourself or others, through these duties.”
How can we say that God is concerned about how He is worshipped only at some times, and not others? The RPW must always be adhered to, must it not?
*Im not saying to add to the discussion of women praying, just in response to your comment about the RPW in general. I am an unlearned man though, so I stand to be corrected.
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Ben Zartman
Puritan Board Junior
There is a distinction to be made between Lord's Day worship when the assembly of God's people is formally called into God's special presence, and acts of devotion done at other times. Worship done outside of the Lord's Day assembly is perforce informal, and is neither mandatory nor regulated the same way. That's why I called it normative: we must still avoid sacrilege and idolatry, but it's OK not to do all the things required of Sabbath worship, things which we must not fail to do on the Sabbath.
When you begin to try and regulate each day as though it were the Sabbath, you do two things: you take away the special-ness of the Sabbath, and you make an idol of the other days. When you say that every act of devotion or instruction or praise must meet the criteria of Lord's Day worship, you are in danger of joining the "all of life is worship" crowd, which actually means that nothing is worship.
To sum up: you're right that God cannot be worshipped in ways other than he has commanded, but we must insist that Sabbath Worship is different than everyday devotion, and that the assembly is governed differently than the family, because they are two different things.
Ben, we would probably agree on many things, but your original semantics are problematic. You said for a woman to pray out loud in front of men is authoritative leading....but not at home.
When God separated femininity from Adam and gave us male and female, he created differences that go to the very core of the soul. A woman cannot have masculine leadership qualities any more than she can have a male pelvic arch or produce sperm. If a woman becomes a pastor or elder, no matter how kind and caring and intelligent she is, she can still never bring the authority of masculinity that God created into her preaching or eldership, because she is not male.
If you want to think women should be silent at all church meetings, fine, you can think that. But you can't say that to pray aloud is leading with authority ie masculine, and then say she can suddenly be masculine at home. She can't. She never ever can. You have to adjust your mental understanding of what authority is, and realize that her prayers are never- at home or at church- masculine authority of leadership. They can't be. They can be out of order or unbiblical perhaps in some settings, but they can't be some quality that only belongs to men.
I happen to believe that a woman's prayers are not under headship, unless obviously hubby does not want her to pray a certain way in which case she is better to keep that to herself. A husband can die or be killed in war, and the woman will retain her god given authority over the children even if there is no father. And she goes into the holy of holies and the very presence of God because she is "in Christ" where there is no male or female when she prays.
Anyway, if you want to think women can't pray at a midweek, that's up to you. But you can't call such praying as being birthed in masculinity ( leadership, authority) and then say it can happen at home. You have to adjust your terminology.
I can drop this : ) , you can think about how you word it and come to your own conclusions. Thanks for the interaction.
When God separated femininity from Adam and gave us male and female, he created differences that go to the very core of the soul. A woman cannot have masculine leadership qualities any more than she can have a male pelvic arch or produce sperm. If a woman becomes a pastor or elder, no matter how kind and caring and intelligent she is, she can still never bring the authority of masculinity that God created into her preaching or eldership, because she is not male.
If you want to think women should be silent at all church meetings, fine, you can think that. But you can't say that to pray aloud is leading with authority ie masculine, and then say she can suddenly be masculine at home. She can't. She never ever can. You have to adjust your mental understanding of what authority is, and realize that her prayers are never- at home or at church- masculine authority of leadership. They can't be. They can be out of order or unbiblical perhaps in some settings, but they can't be some quality that only belongs to men.
I happen to believe that a woman's prayers are not under headship, unless obviously hubby does not want her to pray a certain way in which case she is better to keep that to herself. A husband can die or be killed in war, and the woman will retain her god given authority over the children even if there is no father. And she goes into the holy of holies and the very presence of God because she is "in Christ" where there is no male or female when she prays.
Anyway, if you want to think women can't pray at a midweek, that's up to you. But you can't call such praying as being birthed in masculinity ( leadership, authority) and then say it can happen at home. You have to adjust your terminology.
I can drop this : ) , you can think about how you word it and come to your own conclusions. Thanks for the interaction.
Kinghezy
Puritan Board Sophomore
If we were to say that it is authoritative to lead during a prayer meeting, I think it would be ordained officers (maybe just elders) who would be praying (see Joshua's post 15). I, personally do not find it consistent to say "any man". That starts to sound to me a little like patriarchy. https://www.reformation21.org/blogs/the-patriarchy-movement-five-a.php
... Christ has not entrusted to non-ordained men the public ministry of the word, the administration of the sacraments, church discipline etc... Moreover, men in general are not the head of women in general.
I am not sure where I would fall on this one, but I just wanted to point out that there is two positions expressed: (1) "only ordained men" and (2) "only men"; and there could be a fairly significant difference between the two.
U
Username3000
Guest
Thanks. I’ll study the subject more.
Ben Zartman
Puritan Board Junior
I appreciate your thoughts. I guess if you will not see the difference between public assemblies and private ones, and between the different realms where headship applies, we will continue to get nowhere. Perhaps I'm seeing more nuance in the situation than is there. Either way, may the Lord bless you and keep you, sister.
Ben Zartman
Puritan Board Junior
In Baptist polity, the elders may delegate the duties of prayer and even preaching in some cases to laymen (our deacons preach from time to time, as does a seminary student), but they do so under the authority of the church. When I pray in public, I do so under authority. When the elders pray or preach, they do so under the authority of God's Word. There is a God-given order and structure, so that the elders can delegate any layman to pray, but they cannot delegate that to women, who must keep silence in the churches.
As for patriarchy, that might be a subject for another thread, but personally I find it kind of creepy.
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