New Covenant?

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PresbyDane

Puritanboard Doctor
I have now looked at some commentaries and they do not agree.
What I was looking at was, the episode when Jesus says "This is the sign of the "new covenant"" I thought I knew what this was, but I wanted to tjeck it and maybe get some more insight, but the first one I looked at had a different understanding than me, then the next had the same as me and there were different opinions.

Can you first give me a short definition?

and second give me material on the subject?

Thank you.
 
I assume you mean his words of institution at the first Lord's Supper? I would look at Carson's commentary on Matthew (pp. 537-539). Though he gives reasons, explanations, etc, he says this:

It appears, then, that Jesus understands the covenant he is introducing to be the fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecies [Jer 31] and the antitype of the Sinai covenant [Exod 24:8]. His sacrifice is thus foretold both in redemptive history and in the prophetic word. The Exodus becomes a "type" of a new and greater deliverance; and as the people of God in the OT prospectively celebrated in the first Passover their escape from Egypt, anticipating their arrival in the Promised Land, so the people of God here prospectively celebrate their deliverance from sin and bondage, anticipating the coming kingdom.

Are you looking for something more specific?
 
The book of Hebrews draws a contrast between Old Covenant versus New Covenant, and the use of blood in each. The Old Covenant used the merely symbolic blood of animals; the New Covenant has the sin-atoning blood of Christ.

Heb 9:12 [Christ] entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
Heb 9:13 For if the sprinkling of defiled persons with the blood of goats and bulls and with the ashes of a heifer sanctifies for the purification of the flesh,
Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
​

Verse 15 is important, and makes plain that the salvation now clearly revealed in the New Covenant applies retroactively to saints who were under the Old Covenant.
 
I'm not exactly sure what your question is, but I'm reading God of Promise right now, so I should be able to help you, but nope. :popcorn:
 
This ought to be fun!

:popcorn:

Wait a minute! We're supposed to be arguing! Quick, somebody disagree about something!

I suppose the disagreement appears when paedo and credobaptists are debating, and examining the question of whether in light of Jeremiah 31 a non-elect person can be a member of the New Covenant. I think there's a recent thread discussing that question.

But as far as a description of the blessings of the New Covenant that are taught in scripture, there's actually a lot of agreement in Reformed theology at large. That's why the Baptist Nehemiah Coxe wrote in-depth about the covenants of the Old Testament, but casually referred his readers to the paedobaptist (!) John Owen for exposition of Hebrews 8:6-13, because he felt Owen covered it both adequately and correctly.

It sounds backward to say that a Reformed Baptist would trust the Reformed Paedobaptist understanding of the New Covenant, but it makes more sense as you dig deeper into the issues. For example, you should read Paul Jewett's review of the Reformed standards (e.g. the WCF) on the New Covenant ordinances. He has little but praise for them, because they are very scripturally grounded in their main statements. (As he points out, it's basically just the unscriptural "and also's" and the "not only's" tacked on that are a problem.)

Anyway, the root of the paedobaptist's trouble is in exporting the outward practices and assumptions that are unique to the New Covenant back to Old Covenant scriptures (per Jewett, "Christianizing the Old Testament"), and dragging of obsolete, outward practices from Old Covenant into the New (again, "Judaizing the New Testament").

Even though the New Covenant is retroactive in its scope in terms of atonement, that doesn't mean we should now commingle outward practices that have been made obsolete by Christ's Incarnation. And just because Christ has instituted his Church to follow certain outward forms and practices, that doesn't mean we should assume his Old Covenant people also outwardly practiced all the same things, in the absence of scriptures to that effect.

The New Covenant, as Christ set it up in person on this earth, was in some senses very old, but in other senses it was quite new.

-----Added 1/30/2009 at 10:07:16 EST-----

Here's Calvin on the difference between the Old and New Testaments, from his Institutes of the Christian Religion:

Book II Chapter 11
 
Calvin is ... (dare I say) delectable.

Reading him is a good antidote to this:
Anyway, the root of the paedobaptist's trouble is in exporting the outward practices and assumptions that are unique to the New Covenant back to Old Covenant scriptures (per Jewett, "Christianizing the Old Testament"), and dragging of obsolete, outward practices from Old Covenant into the New (again, "Judaizing the New Testament").

Even though the New Covenant is retroactive in its scope in terms of atonement, that doesn't mean we should now commingle outward practices that have been made obsolete by Christ's Incarnation. And just because Christ has instituted his Church to follow certain outward forms and practices, that doesn't mean we should assume his Old Covenant people also outwardly practiced all the same things, in the absence of scriptures to that effect.
With respect to what is the New Covenant "new"?
Apostle Paul says: it is WRT Moses' OLD Covenant; but not to Abraham, see Galatians 3 & Romans 4. With Abraham the affinities and continuities in the covenant of grace are even more apparent (than they were under the Law, though they weren't non-existent). Essentially the only thing that's changed in biblical religion is orientation to the Christ: forward to backward. The accidents of the administration are made suitable for the times. Seed forms of promises burst forth in full flower.​


The root of the credobaptist's trouble is his over-realized eschatology. It leads him to reading his Bible from back to front. You say we're guilty of taking New-Covenant foundational axioms (that's what "assumptions" are) and reading them "back" into the Old Testament. How does one get a single axiom--let alone a whole set of them--de novo out of the final remaining 1/5 or so of the entire Bible?


Our answer (Calvin's answer) to all the Baptist's charges: We're not in heaven yet.



Martin, I hope this post was helpful to you, and not just intramural venting...
 
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Calvin is ... (dare I say) delectable.

Reading him is a good antidote to this:
Anyway, the root of the paedobaptist's trouble is in exporting the outward practices and assumptions that are unique to the New Covenant back to Old Covenant scriptures (per Jewett, "Christianizing the Old Testament"), and dragging of obsolete, outward practices from Old Covenant into the New (again, "Judaizing the New Testament").

Even though the New Covenant is retroactive in its scope in terms of atonement, that doesn't mean we should now commingle outward practices that have been made obsolete by Christ's Incarnation. And just because Christ has instituted his Church to follow certain outward forms and practices, that doesn't mean we should assume his Old Covenant people also outwardly practiced all the same things, in the absence of scriptures to that effect.
With respect to what is the New Covenant "new"?
Apostle Paul says "to Moses' OLD Covenant, but not to Abraham," see Galatians 3 & Romans 4. With Abraham the affinities and continuities in the covenant of grace are even more apparent (than they were under the Law, though they weren't non-existent). Essentially the only thing that's changed in biblical religion is orientation to the Christ: forward to backward. The accidents of the administration are made suitable for the times. Seed forms of promises burst forth in full flower.​
The root of the credobaptist's trouble is his over-realized eschatology. It leads him to reading his Bible from back to front. You say we're guilty of taking New-Covenant foundational axioms (that's what "assumptions" are) and reading them "back" into the Old Testament. How does one get a single axiom--let alone a whole set of them--de novo out of the final remaining 1/5 or so of the entire Bible?


Our answer (Calvin's answer) to all the Baptist's charges: We're not in heaven yet.



Martin, I hope this post was helpful to you, and not just intramural venting...

Thank you, your post was so helpful.

On a Credo Paedo debate I was told my view of progressive revelation was “flattening the covenants too much.”

Probably I was not clear in the way I was expressing a «already and not yet» view of Redemptive History from shadows to the complete canon, from Gen 3:15 to the Ascension of Christ, while Christians in this world, we still expect our final Glorification.

Yet, I was stating that we should not merely read Hebrews or Galatians into the Old Testament, backwards.

I must say since then Hebrews 8:13 has been a bit difficult to me.

So could you please develop more on the newness of the New Covenant, as a new administration of the Eternal Covenant of Grace.
 
Thank you, your post was so helpful.

Rev. Buchanan, thanks for that.

On a Credo Paedo debate I was told my view of progressive revelation was “flattening the covenants too much.”

Probably I was not clear in the way I was expressing a «already and not yet» view of Redemptive History from shadows to the complete canon, from Gen 3:15 to the Ascension of Christ, while Christians in this world, we still expect our final Glorification.

Yet, I was stating that we should not merely read Hebrews or Galatians into the Old Testament, backwards.

I must say since then Hebrews 8:13 has been a bit difficult to me.

So could you please develop more on the newness of the New Covenant, as a new administration of the Eternal Covenant of Grace.

Cesar, see R. Scott Clark's Abraham, Moses, and Baptism and Ishmael and Infant Baptism. He deals with more recent and more elaborate covenantal Baptist criticisms of the Reformed view. His thesis: The New is New with respect to the Mosaic (Old) Covenant. The Abrahamic Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant thus must not be confused. The substance of the Covenant of Grace remains the same. He is a God to us and our children (Gen. 17:7; Acts 2:39).

P.S. Before I forget, also check Fowler White's discussion of the nature of the visible church and the nation of Israel (which were co-extensive in the OT), and the meaning of the New Covenant in his retraction of his formerly held view of credo-baptism. He affirms that the principle of "believers and their seed" remains in the New Covenant (Jer. 31) despite Baptist claims to the contrary. If White's assertion is true, then the entire Baptist position collapses. Read his retraction here. Thanks.
 
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Calvin is ... (dare I say) delectable.

Reading him is a good antidote to this

Well, it would have been odd for me to link to him if his writing didn't support the point I was making. I also would encourage anybody to read Calvin.

The great thing about Calvin is his tight adherence to scripture as he synthesized his theology. Thus, just like Jewett using the WCF to teach a Baptistic view of the Christian ordinances, we can use Calvin's work to build a foundation for a Baptistic understanding of the covenants of scripture. And it's not so much a matter of taking his work out of context or twisting it somehow, as it is of recognizing distinct, contradictory elements in his theology, and rejecting the non-Biblical strands.
 
Well Andrew,
I guess I'm simply pleased that you think he is supporting your position. To me, that means either that you are sliding away from your Bapterian convictions, or you don't mind inviting folks to read a position that attacks such convictions in the first paragraph thusly:
Those who attend not to the divine purpose in this respect, suppose that God's ancient people ascended no higher than the blessings which were promised to the body. They hear the land of Canaan so often named as the special, and as it were the only, reward of the Divine Law to its worshipers; they hear that the severest punishment which the Lord denounces against the transgressors of the Law is expulsion from the possession of that land and dispersion into other countries; they see that this forms almost the sum of the blessings and curses declared by Moses; and from these things they confidently conclude that the Jews were separated from other nations not on their own account, but for another reason, viz., that the Christian Church might have an emblem in whose outward shape might be seen an evidence of spiritual things.

But since the Scripture sometimes demonstrates that the earthly blessings thus bestowed were intended by God himself to guide them to a heavenly hope, it shows great unskilfulness, not to say dullness, not to attend to this mode of dispensation. The ground of controversy is this: our opponents hold that the land of Canaan was considered by the Israelites as supreme and final happiness, and now, since Christ was manifested, typifies to us the heavenly inheritance; whereas we maintain that, in the earthly possession which the Israelites enjoyed, they beheld, as in a mirror, the future inheritance which they believed to be reserved for them in heaven.
The bold portion is what he says is WRONG about the very position that you have elsewhere advocated, and Coxe, and Welty, and Jewett, and Schreiner, and all the rest. Calvin critiques it a bit more in paras 13&14.

So again, I think the link is great, and I'm pleased you do also.



***********************



Cesar,
Since the covenant of grace cannot decay or pass away, then Heb.8:13 must be referring to a certain outward form--that which dresses the covenant or is superadded to the original--that IS passing away.

Moses, or the Sinai Covenant, presents a show of extreme glory. There is something almost pretentious about the Tabernacle in the wilderness, a kind of back and forth vision of humility and glory. Relative to Egypt's glories it must have looked almost comical to worldly eyes, these ragamuffins chasing about the desert, with their "glory-tent". But look at it in context and its glory starts to become very apparent.

When you get to the land, eventually you see the Temple rise. And once again, in the world's eyes, there is something almost pretentious about it again. Israel is a tiny country, even at the height of its extent. Whether we're talking Egypt again, or Assyria, or Babylon, if Israel gets victory its is always by the Lord, not by her own right hand. But still, if you look at the Temple in context, consider it as the jewel it is, its glory once again is quite apparent.

Indeed, Jerusalem the prophets seem to say is a prize the nations all covet. They see the treasure, the gold, they are envious of these upstart, uppity Israelites. Who do these little hill-county rednecks think they are? And they think that they can come in, and appropriate the glory for themselves. The old covenant has an undeniable glory.

The glory that was a seed in the wilderness, flowered in the kingdom. And the lesson is: Glory is hidden in the wilderness of this world, but will be revealed in heaven. When Christ comes, he proclaims the kingdom come--exclusively in his Person. But what does it look like? Suffering and death in the wilderness of the world, followed by glory in heaven.

And Christ promises us... what? Suffering and death in the wilderness of the world, accompanied by his Tabernacle presence, with its flashes of glory, until we arrive at heaven's glories. The true church just isn't that impressive and glorious in this world, even at its very best. Not without the eyes of faith, which see its hidden glory and the promise of the future.

Warning: don't read MORE into what I say next than is actually there.
The Baptist see's the church as "the imperfect (mixed) society of perfect people (saints)." No, they don't think saints are sinless, but they are saints, or holy ones, and ideally, subjectively--individually and internally--Christians are perfect, and the church is for them. The more "correct" the membership is, the clearer the ideal is rendered visible.

The Presbyterian see's the church as "the perfect (spiritual) society of imperfect people (sinners)." No, we don't think that our worship is sinless! But ideally it is perfect because our high priest is perfect, and he sanctifies those who approach in faith. Objectively, the things that are outside of us, are perfect, and exist for God. Subjectively, perfection is only for heaven.

CHURCH:
Society of saints--Baptist view of the New Covenant people
Society of sinners--Presbyterian view of the New Covenant people, nothing really "new" here

The New Covenant is not "new" in the sense that NOW we close the walls to the society to all the world including our children, and crack open the door, and let in one person at a time once we've examined them for perfection (by profession). The society has not been shrunk down to the walls of the Courtyard, and only those who are invited inside are acknowledged as members.

AND, the society has not yet expanded to fill everything and push out to the periphery of Hell all the excluded ones. THAT is the picture of heaven; that is the land we are looking for, which Abraham was also looking for, and all the saints of Hebrews11.


Two more points. This preacher is almost done.


1) Why was Moses' Old Covenant "glorious"? Apostle Paul explains in 2Cor.3:7-4:5. It was given increasing measures of earthly glory so that most of the participants would be blinded by that glory. So that so they would stumble, so as to fall. So that a whole generation would die in the wilderness mostly without faith, and this pattern would be repeated over and over in the following generations.

Now, there's something that really would be NEW. If we could have more prolific instances of intergenerational faithfulness? Wouldn't that be great? Do the Old Testament promises relating to the New Covenant give us any hopes like that? Anything about children following their parent's faith in greater numbers than in days of old? I seem to recall that being quite a regular theme.

It's interesting to me that in the last verse of the whole Old Testament, in the last promise relating to the New Covenant dawning, we have yet another such instance:
Mal 4:6 And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction.​
Rather poignant. Almost like this might have been a real burden on the hearts of many, many Israelites. "Why is it so hard to pass on our faith to the next generation?"


Which brings me to my final point:
2) How indeed will the New Covenant age see greater intergenerational faithfulness? Well, the answer to that lies in the CENTRAL distinction between the New Covenant age, and the previous ages. It is spelled out in the key NC-promise texts in Jeremiah and in Ezekiel. It is the subject of Peter's sermon on the text of Joel during the first sermon of the NC age, on Pentecost.

The answer is the pouring out of the Spirit. This is the age of the Spirit, see again for example 2Cor.3&4. The Spirit was always the agent of conversion, the power of God upon his earthly agents in the Old Testament. But in those days he was dripped out and drabbed as with an eyedropper. Now he has been poured out in buckets.

After the completion of Christ's sacrificial life and death and his resumption of his heavenly estate, as the hinge of the Covenant of Grace, the singular and signal promise of the New Covenant is the giving of the Spirit. Because Christ ascended he has poured out his Spirit, and ALL the rest of the blessing of the NC is derivative of this grace.

Because He is present in power, he helps parents to be faithful to use his ordained means to spiritually influence their children, and has apparently elected a great many more of them now as opposed to then. God clearly (and sovereignly) wasn't generally working so powerfully in the Old Testament families. What else can we gather from the explicit examples that we find, like David, who seems to be typical of the weak Old Testament parent?

We can't claim any credit for our children's spiritual success, when the grace to rear them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord came from outside of us, and whatever heart of faith they display also came from the Spirit. But there is no denying that the Spirit of Grace is more present and powerful now among his people for the salvation of their children than in the days of the Old Testament. God has been faithful to his promise.


Conclusion:

What are we? We are the church in the wilderness. But we no longer have a Moses, but the Shekina of cloud and fire alone is our guide. We do not need our Christ to veil his face, to hide the fading glory, for it is glory that cannot fade, and it is transforming our faces as he once transformed Moses'. The earthly glories are stripped down in our worship to bare bones, so to as little as possible in this shadowy world obscure the glory of heaven from shining forth.

We stand with our children, and we say to them, "Look, it's so much clearer now. All the gaudy pomp and show is gone, and you can see Jesus. Listen to his Spirit. Learn to love him." And we pray, "Lord open their eyes, their ears, their hearts."

How much of that is "new"? Not much, just the part about the "glory" being removed, and it has been! Just the fact that the Spirit is powerfully present where the gospel is, and we should believe in the New Covenant promises that were made to our children.

See, the gospel is for sinners. And the church is for sinners. The church has always been for sinners, in need of grace. The church is not only inside the Tabernacle court. It is still "the camp". But we still repair to the Tabernacle to meet our God.
 
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Bruce, thanks for responding in such depth. Good thoughts. Sometime I would like to learn more about the differences in the (extent of the) operation of the Spirit in Old Covenant versus New, because that's something I feel a little unclear about.

Back to the main subject, I don't think my view or the Reformed Baptist view in general is what Calvin is caricaturing there. If you are Reformed, then you know that the precious promises of the New Covenant are actually the part of it that is not new in a strict sense. New clarity of revelation, new jettisoning of obsolete crutches (the types and shadows) but not new promises.

Here's a post where I described this with some supporting scriptures http://www.puritanboard.com/515010-post12.html:

God's covenant with Abraham included both an outward, typical dimension, and an internal, spiritual dimension. We who are included in the Abrahamic Covenant in Christ have no part (that I'm aware of) in the outward, typical dimension.

For example:

-----------------------

External, typical -- God promised the birth of a son, a miracle baby who would be the true heir of the covenant (in contrast to the servant Eliezer of Damascus).

Internal, spiritual -- God ultimately intended a different "miracle baby" to be the true heir of the Covenant (in contrast to all the ethnic Jews who have ever lived).

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."
​
-----------------------

External, typical -- God promised the land of Canaan to Abraham's descendants.

Internal, spiritual -- God promised Heaven to his people.

Heb 11:10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.​

-----------------------

External, typical -- God promised that he would make Abraham's descendants very numerous; he made reference to the "many nations" that would come from Abraham (Gen. 17:4), as well as to the "covenant line" / covenant nation ("through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned" (Gen. 21:12).

Internal, spiritual -- God's interest in the Covenant of Grace has always been in his elect, including many Gentiles and excluding many Jews.

Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, "Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith.
Mat 8:11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven,
Mat 8:12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."​
 
Rev. Bruce

Thank you so much for another very helpful post, filled with such meaningful insight and depth.

Andrew, thank you for your very good and clarifying post.

So often the OT is wrongly narrowed to an external aspect in contrast to the internal aspect of the NC (I even found an unexpected quote stating this by Leon Morris), when in fact a true Religion of the Heart, Regeneration and Sanctification, are common to the elect of God throughout all History.
 
Cesar,
thank you; so pleased to be of some small service



Andrew,
I know your sincere desire to have Calvin as the foundation of your view, and I suppose that in certain ways he is. But you have to let him speak for himself. You have to let him mean what he means, and you simply can't say that Calvin didn't know the basics of the positions he argued against.

What do you repudiate about the positions he describes? If you play up the fact that you add in a "spiritual" covenant (as Coxe does), Calvin would throw a flag on that play. He would not recognize your view as being within his limits. He would not allow for any hybridization of the positions. Denying the singular aspect of Abraham's covenant, essentially bifurcating it, he would say that is the essence of the position on the other side.

It does no good to say that since the English Baptists came into existence 1) later 2) on the Island 3) with far fewer theological aberrations and 4) with more theological affinities with the English Reformers, than the Continental Anabaptists (Radical Reformers) had with the Magisterial Reformers--that therefore the abundant and readily apparent similarities in both deviations are NOT addressable by Calvin.

He doesn't need to be writing directly against the English Separatists to be evidently disagreeing with them. Is it anachronistic to say that Augustin wrote against Socinian views? Only in part, because the views expressed by Socinians are similar to the Pelagians. There doesn't need to be an organic or acknowledged hereditary connection. The same thing can be said for Athanasius set against Jehovah's Witnesses as Arians redivivus.


I wouldn't say Calvin is "caricaturing" a certain view there; I certainly don't see him taking features of it and exaggerating them.

I would say he's "characterizing" that position, explaining it succinctly and probably using their own terms.

I don't see how anything in your quoted extract gets you away from being sifted by Calvin's critical distinction between his view and the other. I just ask you: Do you believe Calvin would recognize your view as one that belongs to his side of that divide? Just for acknowledging that there were a few Israelites who penetrated to the "internal" dimension? That doesn't cut it.

I have interacted MANY times with Randy (PuritanCovenanter) on this board, and he has repeatedly defended Coxe's view as you do. Those two "dimensions" of the Abrahamic covenant amount to TWO distinct covenant arrangements, with distinct terms, natures, parties--everything. The fact that they have ties the one to the other, and usually deal with people having an interest in both or who should, doesn't bring them together!

When OUR side uses the language of "dimensions", we're talking about ONE covenant. Randy, Coxe, et al, and you too if you claim to be in agreement with Coxe--you're not talking about a single covenant with an administrative and substantive components or "dimensions."

And because you aren't, you can't read Calvin as if you're agreeing with him on the topic. In the bolded portion that I quoted he is rejecting ANY view that says there were promises made that were essentially carnal or secular. He is completely at odds with Coxe, and anyone else.
 
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