Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
In my last post in the thread....
Post 18
Post 18
Old Testament regeneration
- Thread starter terry43
- Start date
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Grant
Puritan Board Graduate
Only our Lord would truly knows this and I see no benefit from trying to determine the exact moment. I am a Presbyterian for pete's sake
If a converted person is saved, as you answered above, then I would say No, but this is still a mysterious at times. Particularly regarding elect infants. Our confession does address elect infants afterall.
I would say no.
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Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
It's not a matter of trying to know when I was saved; we are trying to ascertain if a man can be regenerated and then converted at a later time. Regeneration and conversion happen in time; sometimes it is simultaneous, others not. Why can I say that? An infant regenerated in the womb. Is that infant converted as well?
Does not the WCF ch 28 tell us that at baptism, if God wills, he can regenerate the infant?
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Grant
Puritan Board Graduate
Scott, I believe the OT saints had the Holy Spirit. I have supported that view in all of my post on this thread.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
A man cannot be converted without a mental assent to biblical facts.
he can be regenerate, but not converted (as I expressed in my island example).
http://www.semperreformanda.com/2015/03/4398/
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Grant
Puritan Board Graduate
Scott look back at my answer, I made a typo. Please update my portion that you quoted.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Amen. As I said, if you don't have the spirit, u are none of Christ's.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
This may help; wisdom from a great man:
Trying to drive a long, temporal wedge between regeneration and conversion is largely fruitless. There is no observable way to determine if such a thing is existent, assuming that it is theoretically stable. At best, it might provide some ex post facto explanation for why someone seemed to linger for a time between saved and lost, a long-time-coming to faith. Meanwhile, as far as anyone can tell, he could simply be resisting the Spirit, and if a reprobate will "win" that battle.
There are other ways to handle whatever "gap" there might appear to be, looking back to seek for some possible early-spark of the Spirit's gracious intervention upon the saved. We often call such effects, "common operations of the Spirit," which for the elect issue in a different result than for the reprobate. That, in my judgment, is a wiser course than adopting the notion of possibly many (elect) people walking about--sometimes for years--in a regenerated but unconverted state.
There are other ways to handle whatever "gap" there might appear to be, looking back to seek for some possible early-spark of the Spirit's gracious intervention upon the saved. We often call such effects, "common operations of the Spirit," which for the elect issue in a different result than for the reprobate. That, in my judgment, is a wiser course than adopting the notion of possibly many (elect) people walking about--sometimes for years--in a regenerated but unconverted state.
Grant
Puritan Board Graduate
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Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Bruce,
No one is trying to 'drive a long, temporal wedge between regeneration and conversion'. Terry asked a question about the apostles and I provided a possible theory. You do the same thing in your post and even go to the extent of providing two possible solutions.
and
Over the years, we discussed this on PB many times; If you recall, I have always held to the idea that the ordo is chronological. The majority of people here, have comfortably hung their hat on the premise that the ordo is 'logical' and not chronological. I disagree, as do many greater minds than mine, i.e. Kuyper, Van Mastricht, Voetius, Witsius (to name a few). It is a relevant, theological topic to discuss. God provided us with information and as responsible disciples, we should process it. It is there for our benefit. Is it 'theoretically stable'? I believe so; this 'gap' doesn't do any injury to the salvation process nor anyones actual walk. For example, I know when I came to faith. At that given moment in time, was it when I was regenerated or converted? I have no real idea. I had a confession and thats all that is important; to me and to my elders.
The WCF tells us in Ch 28 that regeneration is not 'tied to the moment ' of baptism. It also tells us that if God so wills, He can regenerate the child at the time of baptism; this is a curious statement by Westminster and should cause all of us to pause because this tells us that the infant can, and many times, is regenerated prior to any actual, tangible knowledge of God and theology. This shows a gap. It does no damage and so, we should think on these things.
Phil 4:8 Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.
In my opinion, this subject is praiseworthy and hence, I think about it, as we all should. Dismissing it as frivolous, would be sinful.
Love you, Scott.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Likewise, pal.
terry43
Puritan Board Freshman
Thanks for the thoughts... still wondering about the apostles I must say this gap idea helps me.. I was an RC agnostic on an RC retreat, I suddenly believed that God was and that He loved me.. But I would not say I was saved for about 2 weeks ..when in prayer I became acutely aware of the Holiness of God and my sinfulness and literally fell to my knees before God and repented and praised Him for His mercy in Christ ... I suspect this also might be true of children raised in the church ..they may not be able to "give the date" as so often it the "test" but they have come to believe and repent as they grew up
I must say this gap idea helps me.. I was an RC agnostic on an RC retreat, I suddenly believed that God was and that He loved me.. But I would not say I was saved for about 2 weeks ..when in prayer I became acutely aware of the Holiness of God and my sinfulness and literally fell to my knees before God and repented and praised Him for His mercy in Christ ... I suspect this also might be true of children raised in the church ..they may not be able to "give the date" as so often it the "test" but they have come to believe and repent as they grew up- Status
