OPC

[Puritan Sailor]

[quote:be33f6734c="fredtgreco"][quote:be33f6734c="puritansailor"]
I will simply respond the same way the Puritans did. Where are we commanded to use Creeds in worship? The Scriptures don't command it. The Regulative Principle does not allow it. Overly simple perhaps but hey I'm a Puritanhead. Personally I think modern worship is much to complex, even in reformed circles. Give me prayers, psalms, good preaching of the Word, and the sacraments. Simple, pure, and easy to accomplish in almost any atmosphere with minimal dependance on material needs.[/quote:be33f6734c]

Patrick,

Good and necessary inference. We are commanded to confess our faith over and over in Scripture. Of course, it does not say "in worship" but neither does it say "read the Scriptures [i:be33f6734c]in worship[/i:be33f6734c]" or "pray [i:be33f6734c]in worship[/i:be33f6734c]." But we understand it from the context. Calvin and the Puritans would strongly disagree with your stand from the RPW viewpoint. Take a look at Davies' [u:be33f6734c]Worship of the English Puritans[/u:be33f6734c] and see the liturgies employed by Baxter, Knox and Calvin each includes some form of Creed.[/quote:be33f6734c]

Fred, Read Horton's book again (particularly the appendix on Creeds). The Westminster Divines rejected the use of Creeds in their liturgy and they left them out of the chapter on worship. True, Calvin and Knox and some puritans kept them. And Baxter kept them in his church liturgy, but Baxter was not a normal puritan either.

Chris, yes I think those who reject EP are taking exception to the standards. The Divines could have said "psalms and hymns" like the LBC, but they deliberately did not. They taught exclusive psalmody. Now, if the OPC and PCA wish to discard it then fine, but they need to modify the standards if they wish to do it honestly and maintain the necessity of subscription.

 

[Me Died Blue]

[quote:9daa0d5de9="puritansailor"][quote:9daa0d5de9="fredtgreco"][quote:9daa0d5de9="puritansailor"]
I will simply respond the same way the Puritans did. Where are we commanded to use Creeds in worship? The Scriptures don't command it. The Regulative Principle does not allow it. Overly simple perhaps but hey I'm a Puritanhead. Personally I think modern worship is much to complex, even in reformed circles. Give me prayers, psalms, good preaching of the Word, and the sacraments. Simple, pure, and easy to accomplish in almost any atmosphere with minimal dependance on material needs.[/quote:9daa0d5de9]

Patrick,

Good and necessary inference. We are commanded to confess our faith over and over in Scripture. Of course, it does not say "in worship" but neither does it say "read the Scriptures [i:9daa0d5de9]in worship[/i:9daa0d5de9]" or "pray [i:9daa0d5de9]in worship[/i:9daa0d5de9]." But we understand it from the context. Calvin and the Puritans would strongly disagree with your stand from the RPW viewpoint. Take a look at Davies' [u:9daa0d5de9]Worship of the English Puritans[/u:9daa0d5de9] and see the liturgies employed by Baxter, Knox and Calvin each includes some form of Creed.[/quote:9daa0d5de9]

Fred, Read Horton's book again (particularly the appendix on Creeds). The Westminster Divines rejected the use of Creeds in their liturgy and they left them out of the chapter on worship. True, Calvin and Knox and some puritans kept them. And Baxter kept them in his church liturgy, but Baxter was not a normal puritan either.[/quote:9daa0d5de9]

Patrick, to what book by Horton are you referring? I'd be interested in getting it, as I loved his [i:9daa0d5de9]In the Face of God[/i:9daa0d5de9]. And Fred, while I agree with you that the liturgical use of creeds is in fact biblical, what do you make of the WCF's failure to mention them in the worship chapter? Would one have to take exception again (as with denying EP) in order to affirm the biblical use of creeds in worship?

 

[Puritan Sailor]

[quote:3925ebe364="Me Died Blue"]
Even though we sort of moved past this part of the thread - Patrick, to what book by Horton are you referring? I'd be interested in getting it, as I loved his [i:3925ebe364]In the Face of God[/i:3925ebe364]. And Fred, while I agree with you that the liturgical use of creeds is in fact biblical, what do you make of the WCF's failure to mention them in the worship chapter? Would one have to take exception again (as with denying EP) in order to affirm the biblical use of creeds in worship?[/quote:3925ebe364]

We were refering to Horton Davies. He was a prof at Princeton I think for a while. He has two books on Puritan Worship. The first is called the Worship of the English Puritans. That is the one we referenced here. The second is called the Worship of the American Puritans. I found them both very informative. He also has a huge 3 volume series on the Worship of the church throughout church history but I can't recall the name, nor have I read it yet so I can't comment. The two books are published by Soli Deo Gloria.

 

[Me Died Blue]

Thanks, Patrick - yet two more works to add to my ever-growing list of books to get!

 

[wsw201]

Patrick,

Got a question for you. My Associate Pastor was an OPC Pastor for a while way back when and we were discussing some of the distinctives between the PCA and OPC. He noted that since the OPC came out of the PCUSA (Northern Presbyterian Church), their theology was very much influenced by Old Princeton, ie; Hodge, Warfield, etc. while the PCA, which came out of the PCUS (Southern Presbyterian Church) was influenced by Dabney, Thornwell, etc. One thing he also mentioned was that OPC theology was also very much influenced by Dutch Reformed theology, for instance Vos. Do you still see this Dutch influence in the OPC?

 

[yeutter]

I wonder if Benjamin Warfield could even be ordained in the OPC today.

 

[fredtgreco]

I wonder if Warfield were alive today if he would hold some of the same opinions, especially the ones that people tend to use against him. We are all somewhat a product of our time, and prone to the sins that are prevelant in the age in which God has placed us. To me it seems an anomoly to judge a man by the standards of a different day. The complete and utter bankruptcy of evolution and science is easily seen today, but was not so easily seen in Warfield's day.

 

[yeutter]

Could someone that agrees with Warfield on apologetics be ordained in the OPC today?

 

[fredtgreco]

[quote:61b15c7934="yeutter"]Could someone that agrees with Warfield on apologetics be ordained in the OPC today?[/quote:61b15c7934]

I think so. But you would get a firmer answer from an OP guy.

 

[yeutter]

In the mid and late 1980s the decisions regarding Walter Wynn Kenyon and Marvin Kaseman forced a lot of us out of the United Presbyterian Church USA. Almost none of the brothers that left then went to the OPC. Some openly questioned if old Princeton was welcome in the OPC.

 

[LadyFlynt]

What is Dutch Reformed Theology?

 

[wsw201]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
What is Dutch Reformed Theology?

It follows along the lines of the three forms of unity and they have a different polity. Basically there isn't a whole lot of difference.

 

[JohnV]

In doctrine there isn't a lot of difference. But in practice, in type of government, and in polity there is some difference.

I think someone mentioned that Schaff noted that the Westminster Standards were more thorough, but I would contend that the list of errors in the Canons of Dordt are pretty comprehensive too. Some Dutch churches, however, have dropped the Rejection of Errors from the Canons. If I'm not mistaken the RCA is one of them.

On the whole, there are some things that the one is more susceptible to than the other, but neither really has an advantage there. For they each have their strengths too.