Orthodox Preterist?

[Reformingstudent]

Is that the same as a Partial Preterist? Also, do you believe that most of the prophecys about the last days have already
been fulfilled in 70AD?



Thanks.

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

I think the terms are interchangable. Most of Jesus' prophecies relating to His "second coming" in Matthew, for example, were fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. He was present in Spirit through His judgment upon the people of Israel for their rejection of Himself as the Christ. A great deal of Revelation, I believe, deals with the destruction of Jerusalem as well. For example, Emperor Nero would be the "beast from the earth" or "666" that is mentioned.

 

[Joseph Ringling]

Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopiaA great deal of Revelation, I believe, deals with the destruction of Jerusalem as well. For example, Emperor Nero would be the "beast from the earth" or "666" that is mentioned.

Revelation 13:16-17 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.


Im curious, how does or did this verse apply to Nero?

 

[tcalbrecht]

Originally posted by skinsfanjoe

Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopiaA great deal of Revelation, I believe, deals with the destruction of Jerusalem as well. For example, Emperor Nero would be the "beast from the earth" or "666" that is mentioned.

Revelation 13:16-17 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.


Im curious, how does or did this verse apply to Nero?

The mark is a spiritual sign that denotes ownership or "set apart-ness", with forehead and hand being symbols on the mind and heart.

"You shall also make a plate of pure gold and engrave on it, like the engraving of a signet: HOLINESS TO THE LORD. And you shall put it on a blue cord, that it may be on the turban; it shall be on the front of the turban. So it shall be on Aaron's forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things which the children of Israel hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall always be on his forehead, that they may be accepted before the Lord." (Exodus 28:36-38)

" 'Utterly slay old and young men, maidens and little children and women; but do not come near anyone on whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary.' So they began with the elders who were before the temple." (Ezekiel 9:6)

"Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, 'Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.' " (Rev. 7:2,3)

One is either marked for as being part of God's kingdom, or is marked as belonging to the beast's kingdom.

 

[Joseph Ringling]

But how does the buying and selling relate to Nero?

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

The original Westminster Confession teaches that the Pope is Antichrist (XXV.VI) and cites Rev. 13:6, 2 Thess. 2:3, and Matt. 23:8 as proof texts. For more on the Confessional and historicist (in contrast to the preterist) interpretation of Rev. 13 (notably dealing with '666') and other such passages see the following articles:

http://www.puritans.net/curriculum/Critique of Partial Preterism II.html

http://www.cephasministry.com/preterism_anti.html

 

[bigheavyq]

An orthodox preterist is not a hymanean heretic. they affirm the creeds, apostles, nicean, chalcedon, etc.
we may see the fulfillment of most of Revelation in 70 AD, the tribulation in Rev6-18 and the olivet discourse in MATT, MARK, and LUKE. (I wonder why JOHN doesn't have it. Maybe because he already wrote a whole book about it and had been fulfilled? selah)
We are still waiting the Great White Throne judgment, the judgment Seat of Christ, and Satan being cast into the Lake of fire, mostly we are waiting for the resurrection of our new bodies and the physical return of Christ.
A heretical Preterist would say even those happened. the pc term for them is transmillenial preterists.

 

[tcalbrecht]

Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
The original Westminster Confession teaches that the Pope is Antichrist (XXV.VI) and cites Rev. 13:6, 2 Thess. 2:3, and Matt. 23:8 as proof texts.

On several occasions in our presbytery care committee, we've had men come in for examination for licensure and ordination and "take exception" to the Confession's position of Pope == antichrist. We gently remind them that that idea is not in our Confession, and they need not take an exception.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

Originally posted by tcalbrecht

Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
The original Westminster Confession teaches that the Pope is Antichrist (XXV.VI) and cites Rev. 13:6, 2 Thess. 2:3, and Matt. 23:8 as proof texts.

On several occasions in our presbytery care committee, we've had men come in for examination for licensure and ordination and "take exception" to the Confession's position of Pope == antichrist. We gently remind them that that idea is not in our Confession, and they need not take an exception.

I know that the PCA and most American Presbyterian churches don't adhere to the original Westminster Confession. However, my church does adhere to the original 1646 Westminster Confession. Hence, that is my frame of reference when discussing whether the position that the Pope is Antichrist is Confessional or not.

 

[Reformingstudent]

Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot

Originally posted by tcalbrecht

Originally posted by Virginia Huguenot
The original Westminster Confession teaches that the Pope is Antichrist (XXV.VI) and cites Rev. 13:6, 2 Thess. 2:3, and Matt. 23:8 as proof texts.

On several occasions in our presbytery care committee, we've had men come in for examination for licensure and ordination and "take exception" to the Confession's position of Pope == antichrist. We gently remind them that that idea is not in our Confession, and they need not take an exception.

I know that the PCA and most American Presbyterian churches don't adhere to the original Westminster Confession. However, my church does adhere to the original 1646 Westminster Confession. Hence, that is my frame of reference when discussing whether the position that the Pope is Antichrist is Confessional or not.

Another question. Why doesn't the PCA (my denomination) adhere to the original Westminster Confession? Do they not hold to the teachings of the Presbyterian Church as it once was? What are the differences in the Confessions? any insight would be helpful. Thanks.

 

[tcalbrecht]

Originally posted by Keylife_fan

Another question. Why doesn't the PCA (my denomination) adhere to the original Westminster Confession? Do they not hold to the teachings of the Presbyterian Church as it once was? What are the differences in the Confessions? any insight would be helpful. Thanks.

American Revisions to the Westminster Confession of Faith

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

Originally posted by Paul manata

Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot


I know that the PCA and most American Presbyterian churches don't adhere to the original Westminster Confession. However, my church does adhere to the original 1646 Westminster Confession. Hence, that is my frame of reference when discussing whether the position that the Pope is Antichrist is Confessional or not.

so you agree with this:

III. The civil magistrate may not assume to himself the administration of the Word and sacraments, or the power of the keys of the kingdom of heavene) yet he hath authority, and it is his duty, to take order, that unity and peace be. preserved in the Church, that the truth of God be kept pure and entire; that all blasphemies and heresies be suppressed; all corruptions and abuses in worship and discipline prevented or reformed; and all the ordinances of God duly settled, administrated, and observed.(f) For the better effecting whereof, he hath power to call synods, to be present at them, and to provide that whatsoever is transacted in them be according to the mind of God.(g)



That's very refreshing to her a non-theonomist hold to the above.

I absolutely agree with the Confession's statement.

The funny thing is, it was on the basis of this statement that Parliament convened the Westminster Assembly without which we wouldn't even have the Confession to which some folks take exception on this point.

 

[Joseph Ringling]

Originally posted by Paul manata

Originally posted by skinsfanjoe
But how does the buying and selling relate to Nero?

The buying and selling refers to the synagogue. First century Christians, did not take the mark, and, as Jesus predicted

John 16
2They will put [b:e940c663bb]you [/b:e940c663bb]out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God.

Again, he talking to the disciples.

In Acts the disciples went to the synagogue to preach the gospel (e.g., 5:20-21, 24, 42). But then the officials kicked them out and the "doors were shut" (Acts 21:26-30). In the temples alot of buying and selling went on..

Matthew 21


Jesus at the Temple

12Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were [b:e940c663bb]buying and selling[/b:e940c663bb] there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves.

The early Christians would not renounce Jesus as Lord (i.e., take the mark of the beast). You see they had this mark

Revelation 14

1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name [b:e940c663bb]written on their foreheads[/b:e940c663bb].

They proclaimed that Jesus was Lord (I Cor 12:3) and that there is another king, Jesus (Acts 17:7).

You see, in Revelation 18 we read of the merchants who

11"The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one [b:e940c663bb]buys[/b:e940c663bb] their cargoes any more-- 12cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble

15The merchants who [b:e940c663bb]sold[/b:e940c663bb] these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn 16and cry out:


The merchants were Jewish priets who had the power to regulate buying and selling in the temple. We know thay were Jews because Revelation 18 speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem:

23The light of a lamp will never shine in you again.
The voice of bridegroom and bride
will never be heard in you again.
Your merchants were the world's great men.
By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.
[b:e940c663bb]24In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints,
and of all who have been killed on the earth."[/b:e940c663bb]

Who killed the prophets? Remember Jesus said "Jerusalem Jerusalem, you who killed the prophets?

Conversly we see that those who are followers of Christ buy different things.. indeed they don't need to buy because they have bread and water for free!

Revelation 3:18

I counsel thee to [b:e940c663bb]buy[/b:e940c663bb] of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Isa. 55:

1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; [b:e940c663bb]come ye, buy,[/b:e940c663bb] and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

2 Wherefore[b:e940c663bb] do ye spend money [/b:e940c663bb]for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.



[Edited on 12-23-2004 by Paul manata]

Paul, thanks for the informative replay. Are their any books that are fairly easy to read that explain the partial preterist view?

 

[Reformingstudent]

Originally posted by tcalbrecht

Originally posted by Keylife_fan

Another question. Why doesn't the PCA (my denomination) adhere to the original Westminster Confession? Do they not hold to the teachings of the Presbyterian Church as it once was? What are the differences in the Confessions? any insight would be helpful. Thanks.

American Revisions to the Westminster Confession of Faith

Thanks Tom. I appreciate that.

 

[ReformedWretch]

Paul, thanks for the informative replay. Are their any books that are fairly easy to read that explain the partial preterist view?

Let's see...

Last Days Madness
He Shall Have Dominion
When shall these things be
End Times Fiction
Perilous Times
When Jerasulem Fell
The Beast of Revelation

Also, feel free to visit my site;

http://p214.ezboard.com/brapturerumor

Edited to add:

Good job again Paul, you continue to be my example (outside of Christ of course) in eschatological matters!

[Edited on 25-12-2004 by houseparent]

 

[Joseph Ringling]

Originally posted by houseparent

Paul, thanks for the informative replay. Are their any books that are fairly easy to read that explain the partial preterist view?

Let's see...

Last Days Madness
He Shall Have Dominion
When shall these things be
End Times Fiction
Perilous Times
When Jerasulem Fell
The Beast of Revelation

Also, feel free to visit my site;

http://p214.ezboard.com/brapturerumor

Edited to add:

Good job again Paul, you continue to be my example (outside of Christ of course) in eschatological matters!

[Edited on 25-12-2004 by houseparent]

Thanks for the list Adam.