Partial Preterist view of the End of the Age in Matthew

[Calvin Codger]

Many partial preterists link the "end of the age" reference in the Olivet Discourse to the events of 70 AD.

I think that Lord's use of phrase in the parable of the Wheat and Tares precludes this view. The parable of the
wheat and tares links the end of the age to the second coming and general resurrection. Linking the second coming
to the end of the age provides the most coherent partial preterist approach.

What do you think? I look forward to some iron-sharpening feedback on this.

The End of the Age

I was listening to an old series of lectures on Matthew by Steve Gregg who is a partial preterist. When he came to Matthew 13 he understood the end of…

postalpundit.com

 

[DanSSwing]

That's a very helpful article and some good observations. But if the age Jesus is referring to does not end until His ultimate coming (not the one in judgment in 70 AD), then I'm confused how to characterize this age. If one age did not end and another begin in 70 AD, then how do we reconcile all the Pauline warnings of persecution throughout this age with all of the promises that, eventually and gradually, things will get much better, e.g. the other kingdom of heaven parables in Matthew 13, Nebuchadnezzar's dream, and Isaiah's prophecies?

I suppose we could say that Jesus and Paul were talking about the persecution that their immediate hearers/readers would experience in this age but it was not necessarily characteristic of the entire age itself. But even then, the switch from Herod's temple to the Body of Christ is so dramatic that it's hard for me to imagine it NOT being the end of an age. In any case, I think you've made an important contribution to the question. I also recently acquired a copy of the Sproul-endorsed "The Parousia" by Russell, so I'll be interested to get his take on it.

 

[SeanPatrickCornell]

One of the elders at my church recently did a whole series on Revelation in Adult Sunday School, and before he launched into that he did a very length series on the Olivet Discourse.

He is a partial preterist.

Unfortunately, I missed a lot of that series because I was teaching the High School class.

When we go to prayer meeting here shortly tonight, I will ask him if he covered this topic when he addressed some of the common concerns about the partial preterist position.

 

[Calvin Codger]

That's a very helpful article and some good observations. But if the age Jesus is referring to does not end until His ultimate coming (not the one in judgment in 70 AD), then I'm confused how to characterize this age. If one age did not end and another begin in 70 AD, then how do we reconcile all the Pauline warnings of persecution throughout this age with all of the promises that, eventually and gradually, things will get much better, e.g. the other kingdom of heaven parables in Matthew 13, Nebuchadnezzar's dream, and Isaiah's prophecies?

Hey Dan, thanks for reading!
The bifurcation of redemptive history before and after the 70 AD destruction of the temple has immense theological significance.

What I was trying to convey is that 70 AD bifurcation of redemptive history is not what Jesus (and Matthew) have in mind to when they use the terms "end of the age" and "age to come." The phrases "end of the age" and "age to come" have a specific meaning separate from the 70 AD event.

My understanding "end of the age" and "age to come" mirrors the Amillennial view of these concepts. That is to say, "this age" and "the age to come" are currently overlapping ages. Another way to put it is that the age to come is gradually, increasingly breaking into this age - ie, the Already/Not Yet paradigm.
I think Gentry and Mathison view this in the same way.

 

[SeanPatrickCornell]

One of the elders at my church recently did a whole series on Revelation in Adult Sunday School, and before he launched into that he did a very length series on the Olivet Discourse.

He is a partial preterist.

Unfortunately, I missed a lot of that series because I was teaching the High School class.

When we go to prayer meeting here shortly tonight, I will ask him if he covered this topic when he addressed some of the common concerns about the partial preterist position.

My Elder, Mr. Callahan, said he'd never heard this objection before, and so he'd have to think about it, but he points out that just because the same phrase "end of the age" is used in two different places, it doesn't have to necessarily follow that Jesus meant exactly the same thing in each case when he used that phrase. Context for the Olivet Discourse seems to be quite clearly a reference to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple and the end of the Old Covenant age. Context for the wheat and tares seems to clearly point to an eschatological usage of the term.

 

[DanSSwing]

My Elder, Mr. Callahan, said he'd never heard this objection before, and so he'd have to think about it, but he points out that just because the same phrase "end of the age" is used in two different places, it doesn't have to necessarily follow that Jesus meant exactly the same thing in each case when he used that phrase. Context for the Olivet Discourse seems to be quite clearly a reference to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple and the end of the Old Covenant age. Context for the wheat and tares seems to clearly point to an eschatological usage of the term.

This is probably a good place to add this helpful diagram I saw in another discussion of preterism:

 

[Calvin Codger]

My Elder, Mr. Callahan, said he'd never heard this objection before, and so he'd have to think about it, but he points out that just because the same phrase "end of the age" is used in two different places, it doesn't have to necessarily follow that Jesus meant exactly the same thing in each case when he used that phrase. Context for the Olivet Discourse seems to be quite clearly a reference to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple and the end of the Old Covenant age. Context for the wheat and tares seems to clearly point to an eschatological usage of the term.

This will not work. The Two-Age Structure of Biblical Eschatology is a well established consensus among scholars a commentators of all eschatological views. There is almost complete unanimity on this issue. This two age distinction was even present in Second Temple Judaism. You have suggested two different ends of the ages. If two different ages now have to end and we still have an age to come, the view you are advocating results in at least three different ages.

 

[SeanPatrickCornell]

This will not work.

I remain unconvinced.

 

[Calvin Codger]

I remain unconvinced.

Well, do you know of any orthodox scholars or commentators advocating your three-age structure of biblical eschatology?

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Here are some Scriptures on this rudimentary topic:

Only two ages [aiōn], also translated world [the KJV which I use usually translates aiōn as world instead of age]

Matt 12:32 whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world [age], neither in the world [age] to come.

Matt 13:39, 40, 49 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world . . . So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just

Luke 18:29, 30 There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

Luke 20:34, 35 The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage

Eph 1:20-21 [God set Christ] at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come

Gal 1:4 ...our Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father

2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not

Titus 2:12 the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world

The nature of this present aiōn is evil, increasingly so as its end draws near. John in 1 John 5:19 says this of the present world (though he uses κόσμος kosmos instead of aiōn age, what he says is equal to age) : "We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one."

Those who posit a righteous and holy age distinctly different from this present evil age as included in the era of the NT church do add a third age, which is contrary to the teaching of God's word.

We do not cling to the false hope that things will get better and better in the world, although the true church is increasingly purified in the furnace of affliction (Isa 48:10), and she is getting better and better, but the world not.

@Calvin Codger is sound in his take.

 

[Calvin Codger]

The nature of this present aiōn is evil, increasingly so as its end draws near. John in 1 John 5:19 says this of the present world (though he uses κόσμος kosmos instead of aiōn age, what he says is equal to age) : "We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one."

Those who posit a righteous and holy age distinctly different from this present evil age as included in the era of the NT church do add a third age, which is contrary to the teaching of God's word.

We do not cling to the false hope that things will get better and better in the world, although the true church is increasingly purified in the furnace of affliction (Isa 48:10), and she is getting better and better, but the world not.

@Calvin Codger is sound in his take.

I appreciate that we can agree on the Two-Age Structure of Biblical Eschatology which cuts across the eschatological spectrum. But wow... did you read the OP? In terms of eschatology, there's probably little else that we would agree on. I've seen some of your other posts.
I am Postmillennial.

Regarding "those who posit a righteous and holy age distinctly different from this present evil age," that may be true of old-school postmillennials who posited a "Golden Age." That is not true of me or most modern postmillennials. Modern postmillennialism holds that the millennium is the interadvent period exactly the same as the amillennials do.

And regarding "The nature of this present aiōn is evil, increasingly so as its end draws near," that does not comport with the Biblical view of an the increasingly successful progress of the Kingdom of God.
For starters, The Daniel 2 prophecy describes a stone that grows into a mountain that fills the whole earth. Daniel 2 and the parables of the mustard seed and the leaven (Matt 13:31-35) teach a kingdom with a seemingly insignificant beginning that will gradually dominate the whole earth. They teach an irresistible, all-conquering kingdom that is progressivley expanding. It is a kingdom of transformed lives, cultures and nations. They teach a kingdom that will gradually, inexorably come to dominate the whole earth. The kingdom taught by these parables is NOT a stalemate (or deterioration) broken by the second coming as most amilliennialists would have it.

 

[requested deletion member 13777]

I appreciate that we can agree on the Two-Age Structure of Biblical Eschatology which cuts across the eschatological spectrum. But wow... did you read the OP? In terms of eschatology, there's probably little else that we would agree on. I've seen some of your other posts.
I am a dyed-in-the-wool, twenty-four-carat, germ free, straight up pure unadulterated, high octane ethanol-free Techron infused Postmillennialist.

Regarding "those who posit a righteous and holy age distinctly different from this present evil age," that may be true of old-school postmillennials who posited a "Golden Age." That is not true of me or most modern postmillennials. Modern postmillennialism holds that the millennium is the interadvent period exactly the same as the amillennials do.

And regarding "The nature of this present aiōn is evil, increasingly so as its end draws near," that does not comport with the Biblical view of an the increasingly successful progress of the Kingdom of God.
For starters, The Daniel 2 prophecy describes a stone that grows into a mountain that fills the whole earth. Daniel 2 and the parables of the mustard seed and the leaven (Matt 13:31-35) teach a kingdom with a seemingly insignificant beginning that will gradually dominate the whole earth. They teach an irresistible, all-conquering kingdom that is progressivley expanding. It is a kingdom of transformed lives, cultures and nations. They teach a kingdom that will gradually, inexorably come to dominate the whole earth. The kingdom taught by these parables is NOT a stalemate (or deterioration) broken by the second coming as most amilliennialists would have it.

Judging by your use of adjectives, you must be of the Doug Wilson stripe.

 

[Calvin Codger]

Judging by your use of adjectives, you must be of the Doug Wilson stripe.

Ha! The first part of that actually was something similar I heard Doug Wilson say regarding Calvinism! I do like Doug Wilson I don't like the CN stuff he's been into over the past 2 years. Also, in the OP Doug Wilson's view of the two-ages is the view I was arguing against.
(after re-reading my post, I thought those adjectives were too abrasive so I removed them)

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello Calvin, "the increasingly successful progress of the Kingdom of God" you speak of is in sharp contrast to the "increasingly successful progress of the kingdom(s) of the world"! For Jesus clearly said the Kingdom of God "is not of this world" (John 18:36).

The "increasingly successful progress" of the world pertains to the reign of wickedness under the god of this world. On the other hand, the "increasingly successful progress of the Kingdom of God" pertains to that which is under the reign of its King – the Lord Jesus – and does His will, that is, the assembly of God's people throughout the earth.

When Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world", this is precisely what He meant. The "stone that grows into a mountain that fills the whole earth" is not a "Christianizing" of the world, but the holy kingdom of the saints, which the world is never a part of. Your modifying the old postmil view with a newer version still flunks the test of Scripture.

 

[Northern Crofter]

Hello Calvin, "the increasingly successful progress of the Kingdom of God" you speak of is in sharp contrast to the "increasingly successful progress of the kingdom(s) of the world"! For Jesus clearly said the Kingdom of God "is not of this world" (John 18:36).

The "increasingly successful progress" of the world pertains to the reign of wickedness under the god of this world. On the other hand, the "increasingly successful progress of the Kingdom of God" pertains to that which is under the reign of its King – the Lord Jesus – and does His will, that is, the assembly of God's people throughout the earth.

When Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world", this is precisely what He meant. The "stone that grows into a mountain that fills the whole earth" is not a "Christianizing" of the world, but the holy kingdom of the saints, which the world is never a part of. Your modifying the old postmil view with a newer version still flunks the test of Scripture.

As I have raised in previous discussions, doesn't it seem odd to propose that a spiritual kingdom will grow and flourish and yet not have an impact on the temporal world for the better? It seems counter-intuitive that the world will wax worse and worse while the spiritual kingdom of Christ successfully progresses. This seems to be modifying the old amil view with a newer version that introduces a gnostic dualism that flunks the test of Scripture.

I do agree that the spiritual victory precedes victory in the temporal, but I think you read too much into the phrase "not of this world" - that phrase seems to be communicating that it will not be worldly methods that change the world, but it does not mean that the world will not change.

 

[RamistThomist]

As I have raised in previous discussions, doesn't it seem odd to propose that a spiritual kingdom will grow and flourish and yet not have an impact on the temporal world for the better? It seems counter-intuitive that the world will wax worse and worse while the spiritual kingdom of Christ successfully progresses. This seems to be modifying the old amil view with a newer version that introduces a gnostic dualism that flunks the test of Scripture.

I do agree that the spiritual victory precedes victory in the temporal, but I think you read too much into the phrase "not of this world" - that phrase seems to be communicating that it will not be worldly methods that change the world, but it does not mean that the world will not change.

Not always. There isn't always a 1:1 correspondence between conversions and societal blessing. There are other factors at play: economic power, technology, globalism, Satan and his legions taking control of govts, etc.

 

[Northern Crofter]

Not always. There isn't always a 1:1 correspondence between conversions and societal blessing. There are other factors at play: economic power, technology, globalism, Satan and his legions taking control of govts, etc.

I'm speaking in general (big picture), not 1:1.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello Andrew, were you to bring Scripture to bear on your remarks I would be more inclined to respond. Absent that, I see no need to comment on these mere – and odd – opinions.

 

[Northern Crofter]

Hello Andrew, were you to bring Scripture to bear on your remarks I would be more inclined to respond. Absent that, I see no need to comment on these mere – and odd – opinions.

There are plenty of Scriptures that testify that Christ is actively gathering and defending His Church, and subduing their enemies - Psalm 110 .1 springs to mind - so I fail to see what is "odd" about thinking that, when Christ and the Church's enemies have been subdued there will not be temporal benefits that flow from that victory. The prayer Christ gave us as a model teaches us to pray that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6.10) - do you really think it is God's will that the Church succeeds spiritually without also bringing temporal blessings? If nations are conquered by the Gospel and embrace the moral law as summarized in the 10 Commandments, would it be "odd" that those societies would become more economically just, limit the abuse of power, and largely use technology for righteous purposes? Isn't that the point of prophetic passages such as Micah 6:8? As Eph. 2:2-3 teaches, your spiritual state affects your material actions. You cannot become renewed on the inside and not have it show on the outside - so if nations submit truly themselves to Christ, there must be an external ramification at a societal level. Why does Paul teach us (I Tim. 2:1-2) to pray for human governors if the spiritual conversion of societies will not result in major external changes? I believe the Larger Catechism provides many more portions of Scripture in Q/A191 and Q/A 192 that demonstrate that the world will not grow worse and worse as the Gospel grows and grows. I know we've gone round and round on this topic before, so there is probably no point in continuing further. I just cannot see from Scripture how one can be spiritually optimistic and temporally pessimistic at the same time.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello Andrew, I will get back to you. Thank you for responding. In my part of the world it is bedtime, especially as tomorrow is the Lord's Day.

 

[Calvin Codger]

Hello Steve.
Now that you've totally derailed this thread , I cannot resist. I'll take the bait. In the interest of irenicism, I respectfully ask
you to refrain from punctuating your responses with insults like "flunk the test of scripture." If that were actually true, then your
argument should speak for itself. You do realize that I could add that phrase (or something like it) to every response I make too, right?
It wouldn't make me correct and it doesn't make you correct.

Matt 13:33 "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened.”
1. You forgot to respond to my points on the parables of of the leaven and bread and the mustard seed.
"three measures of flour, till it was all leavened.” The Lord indicates that the Kingdom of Heaven is the leaven.
Postmillennials understand the world to be what is becoming "all leavened." What do you (and Amils) think is being "all leavened"?

Matt 13:31-32 "The kingdom of heaven is like aa grain of mustard seed....when it has grown it is larger than all the garden plants and becomes a tree"
2. Likewise, you didn't address the parable of the Mustard seed. Postmillennials understand this to mean
seemingly insignificant beginning (seed = Kingdom of God) that will gradually dominate the whole earth (tree = Kingdom God).
The "whole earth" means the whole earth. What do you (and Amils) propose as the meaning of the whole earth?

Daniel 2:35 "But the stone that struck the image became pa great mountain and filled the whole earth."
3. The stone that "became a great mountain" is the Kingdom of God - the fifth kingdom. Your assertion about this fifth kingdom was that
"...which the world is never a part of". Nevertheless, the text actually says "filled the whole earth." Postmillennials
understand the "whole earth" to mean "whole earth". What do you (and Amils) think the "whole earth" means?
The passage explains in v34ff that the stone "struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces."
The first four kingdoms are wordily kingdoms that are being destroyed by the stone kingdom.

4. You indicate that "My kingdom is not of this world, this is precisely what He meant" but you don't explain what you think He meant.
John 18:36 "My kingdom is not of this world."
Indicates that origin and nature of His kingdom is not from here. The Lord has been anointed as King by God the Father.
His "authority is not derived from, nor dependent upon, political agency."(JFB) It is a spiritual kingdom the effects of which
will overtake whole earth but its source of power and authority is from heaven.

5. You said "kingdom of the saints, which the world is never a part of." Of Course. Yes. Amen. John 3:3. The non-elect, the faithless
will never be part of the Kingdom of God. They will be gradually overwhelmed by the burgeoning Kingdom of God. At the second coming it
is a wheat field, not a tare field.

6. You posit this, ""increasingly successful progress" of the world pertains to the reign of wickedness under the god of this world."
Isaiah 2:4 and many other verses like it run counter to your above assertion of increasing wickedness.
Isaiah 2:4 "He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore."

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello Andrew, responding to your comments in post 15 and also in post 19.

First, post 15: You said, "doesn't it seem odd to propose that a spiritual kingdom will grow and flourish and yet not have an impact on the temporal world for the better?"

Not if the "temporal world" is at enmity against the spiritual kingdom. It is not a neutral lump of dough that can be molded as some in the spiritual kingdom would like. Its god hates the spiritual kingdom. You do realize it has a god energizing and guiding it, don't you?

In the same vein you say, "It seems counter-intuitive that the world will wax worse and worse while the spiritual kingdom of Christ successfully progresses." Counter-intuitive? How about just plain Scriptural clarity and wisdom? Ditto what I said in the above paragraph.

Of my view you opine, "This seems to be modifying the old amil view with a newer version that introduces a gnostic dualism that flunks the test of Scripture." [emphasis added]

That's a bit bizarre. You appear not to comprehend the views you think to critique.

Now to your post post 19.

To support your view you quote Psalm 110:1

The LORD said unto my Lord,​

Sit thou at my right hand,​

until I make thine enemies thy footstool.​

The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion:​

rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.​

The question is when this happens? Will it happen in the midst of this present age? Or in a third and distinctly different age? If the latter, you can duke it out with your compadre Calvin C. If in this present age you can contend with the apostle Paul who insists this present age is evil (Gal 1:4), with no general turning to righteousness. And with the apostle John who says that when the NT church – in the figure of the two witnesses of Revelation 11 – when their legal testimony is finished, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will war against them, overcome them, and kill them (Rev 11:7). John also spoke to this in his 1 John 5:19, when he said, "And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in wickedness."

The principle is this: when the church assaults and binds the kingdom of Satan, taking his captives and delivering them safely into the kingdom of God's dear Son, the devil and his "temporal kingdom" is not made better and becomes friendly toward the spiritual kingdom, but wars ferociously against it. Psalm 2 shows the dynamic clearly.

The LC's Q/A191 and Q/A 192 may well be understood to promote the amil view as well as to what you are promoting. Eschatology is the one area of doctrine that is still not settled, as it remains to be seen which of the differing schools holds the right view. Thus it is we who sort through these matters, seeking to arrive at what is Biblically sound.

I maintain that what you are promoting is contra-biblical, a wishful dream that will lull the unwary into many difficulties due to their unpreparedness for the terrible tribulation that is to come upon the faithful Christian church the world over. You keep saying, Peace, peace, when war and hatred fills the hearts of those confronted with the Gospel of God's present mercy and His coming judgment. His command to cease from sin, repent, and believe in His Son, elicits wrath and not benign acceptance and compliance.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello Calvin, you said (in your post 21), "In the interest of irenicism, I respectfully ask you to refrain from punctuating your responses with insults like 'flunk the test of scripture'." I certainly don't mean to be insulting you, Calvin, as I see you being a sincere brother, and I'll be more careful in how I speak to you. It's just that – given the extremity of our situation today, the Christian communities around the world – we must play hardball here, and not softball.

There are many onlookers – respectful of our views, knowledge of Scripture, and generally civil discourse – who appreciate our discussions. They seek edification, some particularly in the area of end-times / eschatology as it is clear there is a dark cloud of strange deathly oppression covering the entire earth in unprecedented ways and force, which also seeks to outlaw the spiritual vitality and voice of Christ's followers. The silencing of the Gospel.

As I mentioned to my brother Andrew above, we are in the midst of a fierce battle: on our opponent's side they have no qualms about destroying us, if not (yet) physically, then in many other ways through the laws increasingly being turned against us. We – the faithful and gentle of Christ's flock – do not use the weapons of the world, but those "mighty through God, to the pulling down of strongholds, casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ" (2 Cor 10:4, 5).

This is not mere academic and theological business, but our very lives in a turbulent and dangerous world. The turbulence and danger haven't come to a neighborhood near you yet? It will. And maybe too suddenly for comfort. At any rate, this is me.

About the parable of the leaven in Matt 13:33. It is a parable of the Kingdom of heaven, and those in and of it. The children of the kingdom of heaven are leavened by the word and Spirit of God to grow into maturity. Yes, we are to address – as far as we are able, and it is fitting – poverty and injustice our cultures, as well as evangelizing. But you go further than Scripture, and say, "Postmillennials understand the world to be what is becoming 'all leavened.' " This parable signifies inward growth in the kingdom's children, not the world.

The parable of the mustard seed in Matt 13:31, 32 is about outward growth – across the world – as the Gospel goes forth in the power of Christ's resurrection. It started small, and often, in many locales, started with only one or a few people, until much of the area was converted to Christ. As you suggest, is it connected to Daniel 2:35, and also Dan 2:44.

Dan 2:35, "...the stone that smote the image [of other kingdoms] became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth."

Dan 2:44, And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

I would agree that the kingdom of God spoken of by Daniel – the stone that smote the image and became a great mountain – and filled the whole earth, did indeed fill the whole earth. But did it transform the whole earth, converting most of its many peoples into becoming part of the mountain, or did it "break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms"? And when did this breaking and consuming occur?

Was it not at final Armageddon, shown in Rev 20:7,8,9:

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them​

Then, in the new heaven and new earth, the kingdom of God covered all the earth, all other opposing kingdoms having been consumed, and then judged, and consigned to eternal destruction.

You bring up Isaiah 2:4. In principle the influence of Christ and His gospel has already brought a relative peace among the once-warring and brutal nations. But the absolute peace spoken of in the passage shall only be known when the last enemies of God's kingdom have been crushed.

And He shall judge among the nations,​

and shall rebuke many people:​

and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,​

and their spears into pruninghooks:​

nation shall not lift up sword against nation,​

neither shall they learn war any more​

We see when this shall come to pass, as written in Psalm 2:7,8,9,

I will declare the decree:​

the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son;​

this day have I begotten thee.​

Ask of me,​

and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance,​

and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.​

Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron;​

thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.​

The evil age in which Satan is god of it shall end. The Armageddon finale shown in Rev 20:7,8,9 will be when the entire world of the wicked is destroyed, along with all the unregenerate peopling it.

One remarkable thing about Jesus is the simplicity and clarity with which He spoke. When He said, "My kingdom is not of the world", this indicates the utter antithesis between His kingdom and the world's. Many will try to "nuance" this to have other meaning, but all such spin will fail, as the Scripture will clearly and definitively expose it.

We can no longer afford to tolerate uncontested – with mealy-mouthed "kindness" (referring to myself) – that which allows and lulls the saints to relax their vigilance and spiritual preparation – including that of their families – when the deluge of evil washes over the earth.

 

[Northern Crofter]

I maintain that what you are promoting is contra-biblical, a wishful dream that will lull the unwary into many difficulties due to their unpreparedness for the terrible tribulation that is to come upon the faithful Christian church the world over. You keep saying, Peace, peace, when war and hatred fills the hearts of those confronted with the Gospel of God's present mercy and His coming judgment. His command to cease from sin, repent, and believe in His Son, elicits wrath and not benign acceptance and compliance.

...they have no qualms about destroying us, if not (yet) physically...

It seems dangerous to be preparing for future tribulation when our brothers and sisters in places like west Africa and India and many parts of eastern Asia are being presently butchered for their faith in greater numbers than ever before seen in the history of the world. Again, do you contest that the spread of the Gospel spiritually conquering these lands will end their physical suffering?

it is clear there is a dark cloud of strange deathly oppression covering the entire earth in unprecedented ways and force, which also seeks to outlaw the spiritual vitality and voice of Christ's followers. The silencing of the Gospel.

I do not believe Scripture or our doctrinal standards allow any of this as a possibility. Why pray (as we are instructed in WSC 191): "that the kingdom of sin and Satan may be destroyed, the gospel propagated throughout the world, the Jews called, the fulness of the Gentiles brought in; the church furnished with all gospel officers and ordinances, purged from corruption, countenanced and maintained by the civil magistrate: that the ordinances of Christ may be purely dispensed, and made effectual to the converting of those that are yet in their sins, and the confirming, comforting, and building up of those that are already converted: that Christ would rule in our hearts here, and hasten the time of his second coming, and our reigning with him forever: and that he would be pleased so to exercise the kingdom of his power in all the world, as may best conduce to these ends" if we expect the Gospel to be silenced and the whole earth swallowed up by deathly oppression?

The principle is this: when the church assaults and binds the kingdom of Satan, taking his captives and delivering them safely into the kingdom God's dear Son, the devil and his "temporal kingdom" is not made better and becomes friendly toward the spiritual kingdom, but wars ferociously against it.

Your consistent spiritual=good / temporal=bad dualism seems to be the contra-Biblical position. There is not a spiritual kingdom vs. a temporal kingdom. The temporal was created good and is groaning with us to be renewed and restored from the horrible deformation to which the whole of creation is subjected because of spiritual failing. Satan's is also a spiritual kingdom which is why we are to be "comparing spiritual things with spiritual things." (1 Corinthians 2.13). He is "the prince that ruleth in the air, even the spirit, that now worketh in the children of disobedience" (Ephesians 2.2) which is why "we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the worldly governors of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in the high places." (Ephesians 6.12). We don't oppose worldly governments because they are flesh and blood (which they are) but because they are wicked. The post-mil position is not one of trying to take over the world physically (politically or militarily) - it is the position that Christ taking the world over spiritually (including "in the high places") will lead to positive changes in the physical/temporal world. The spiritual kingdom of darkness is warring against the spiritual kingdom of light - when and where the darkness is winning, deeds of darkness generally abound in the temporal kingdoms of the earth, and vice versa.

You cannot separate the spiritual from the temporal. When the Spirit is given to a person, it manifests in tangible, temporal, physical fruits: "diversities of gifts... diversities of administrations... diversities of operations" (see 1 Corinthians 12.) If you "walk in the Spirit" (Galatians 5) it is shown in your physical life - you will not "do such things" as "adultery, fornication, uncleanness, wantonness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, debate, emulations, wrath, contentions, seditions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, gluttony, and such like" (vv.19-21; see also Ephesians 5 - the right spirit leads to the right walk). It is the consistent testimony of Scripture that a land of people transformed in spirit cannot but become a land transformed in the flesh.

The principle is this: when the church assaults and binds the kingdom of Satan, taking his captives and delivering them safely into the kingdom God's dear Son, the devil and his "temporal kingdom" is not made better and becomes friendly toward the spiritual kingdom, but wars ferociously against it. Psalm 2 shows the dynamic clearly.

This is not at all what Psalm 2 teaches. Yes, Satan will oppose the kingdom of Christ - Psalm 2 teaches that the heathen people and their kings and princes "of the earth" are assembled together against Christ, but it also teaches that Satan and his followers will be crushed and broken. "Be wise now therefore, ye kings: be learned ye judges of the earth. Serve the Lord in fear, and rejoice in trembling. Kiss the Son..."(vv.10-12). Why? Because it is futile to resist God (vv.1-4) since these heathen people and principalities will be His inheritance, "and the ends of the earth" will be His possession. But do you really think Christ's goal is to inherit a crushed, broken world? Will He not put the pieces back together? Whenever He preached the Gospel, it was never not accompanied by a physical sign (people healed, crowds fed), so why would we expect the spread of the Gospel to not be accompanied in a similar way?

You keep emphasizing this present evil age, but does that not in itself point to a coming righteous age, "on earth as it is in heaven"? Consider Christ's last conversation on this earth:

"When they therefore were come together they asked of him, saying, "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"

And he said unto them, "It is not for you to know the times, or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power of the holy Ghost, when he shall come on you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1.6-8)

Christ did not say "I am not going to restore the kingdom to Israel because it is an earthly, temporal kingdom." His answer shows the kingdom will be restored, but it will be after the Gospel, with the power of the Spirit, has spread to all the earth. I do not believe, on the basis of passages such as Romans 9.6, that the kingdom of Israel was ever or will be just an earthly, temporal kingdom - again, I do not believe you can ever separate the spiritual from the temporal.

If in this present age you can contend with the apostle Paul who insists this present is evil (Gal 1:4), with no general turning to righteousness.

I agree "this present age is evil." What post-mil does not? But where is your Scriptural support for the end of your claim?

Eschatology is the one area of doctrine that is still not settled, as it remains to be seen which of the differing schools holds the right view.

So why so adamant that yours is the only Biblical view?

"Amend your lives therefore, and turn, that your sins may be put away, when the time of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you. Whom the heaven must contain until the time that all things be restored, which God had spoken by the mouth of all his holy Prophets since the world began." (Acts 3.19-21) I acknowledge that this could be interpreted consistently in a (historic) pre-mil or post-mil paradigm, but I struggle to see how an amil can do so.

 

[Calvin Codger]

Hello Calvin, you said (in your post 21), "In the interest of irenicism, I respectfully ask you to refrain from punctuating your responses with insults like 'flunk the test of scripture'." I certainly don't mean to be insulting you, Calvin, as I see you being a sincere brother, and I'll be more careful in how I speak to you. It's just that – given the extremity of our situation today, the Christian communities around the world – we must play hardball here, and not softball.

There are many onlookers – respectful of our views, knowledge of Scripture, and generally civil discourse – who appreciate our discussions. They seek edification, some particularly in the area of end-times / eschatology as it is clear there is a dark cloud of strange deathly oppression covering the entire earth in unprecedented ways and force, which also seeks to outlaw the spiritual vitality and voice of Christ's followers. The silencing of the Gospel.

As I mentioned to my brother Andrew above, we are in the midst of a fierce battle: on our opponent's side they have no qualms about destroying us, if not (yet) physically, then in many other ways through the laws increasingly being turned against us. We – the faithful and gentle of Christ's flock – do not use the weapons of the world, but those "mighty through God, to the pulling down of strongholds, casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ" (2 Cor 10:4, 5).

This is not mere academic and theological business, but our very lives in a turbulent and dangerous world. The turbulence and danger haven't come to a neighborhood near you yet? It will. And maybe too suddenly for comfort. At any rate, this is me.

About the parable of the leaven in Matt 13:33. It is a parable of the Kingdom of heaven, and those in and of it. The children of the kingdom of heaven are leavened by the word and Spirit of God to grow into maturity. Yes, we are to address – as far as we are able, and it is fitting – poverty and injustice our cultures, as well as evangelizing. But you go further than Scripture, and say, "Postmillennials understand the world to be what is becoming 'all leavened.' " This parable signifies inward growth in the kingdom's children, not the world.

The parable of the mustard seed in Matt 13:31, 32 is about outward growth – across the world – as the Gospel goes forth in the power of Christ's resurrection. It started small, and often, in many locales, started with only one or a few people, until much of the area was converted to Christ. As you suggest, is it connected to Daniel 2:35, and also Dan 2:44.

Dan 2:35, "...the stone that smote the image [of other kingdoms] became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth."

Dan 2:44, And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

I would agree that the kingdom of God spoken of by Daniel – the stone that smote the image and became a great mountain – and filled the whole earth, did indeed fill the whole earth. But did it transform the whole earth, converting most of its many peoples into becoming part of the mountain, or did it "break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms"? And when did this breaking and consuming occur?

Was it not at final Armageddon, shown in Rev 20:7,8,9:

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them​

Then, in the new heaven and new earth, the kingdom of God covered all the earth, all other opposing kingdoms having been consumed, and then judged, and consigned to eternal destruction.

You bring up Isaiah 2:4. In principle the influence of Christ and His gospel has already brought a relative peace among the once-warring and brutal nations. But the absolute peace spoken of in the passage shall only be known when the last enemies of God's kingdom have been crushed.

And He shall judge among the nations,​

and shall rebuke many people:​

and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,​

and their spears into pruninghooks:​

nation shall not lift up sword against nation,​

neither shall they learn war any more​

We see when this shall come to pass, as written in Psalm 2:7,8,9,

I will declare the decree:​

the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son;​

this day have I begotten thee.​

Ask of me,​

and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance,​

and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.​

Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron;​

thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.​

The evil age in which Satan is god of it shall end. The Armageddon finale shown in Rev 20:7,8,9 will be when the entire world of the wicked is destroyed, along with all the unregenerate peopling it.

One remarkable thing about Jesus is the simplicity and clarity with which He spoke. When He said, "My kingdom is not of the world", this indicates the utter antithesis between His kingdom and the world's. Many will try to "nuance" this to have other meaning, but all such spin will fail, as the Scripture will clearly and definitively expose it.

We can no longer afford to tolerate uncontested – with mealy-mouthed "kindness" (referring to myself) – that which allows and lulls the saints to relax their vigilance and spiritual preparation – including that of their families – when the deluge of evil washes over the earth.

Hi Steve. Play "hardball" with scriptural analysis please.

1. Matt 13:33 "“The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened.”
You said, "The children of the kingdom of heaven are leavened..."
Leaven is being put into flour. The kingdom of heaven is the leaven. The kingdom of heaven is not the flour.

2. Matt 13:31-32 The parable of the Mustard seed
You said, "It started small, and often, in many locales, started with only one or a few people, until much of the area was converted to Christ."
Welcome to Postmillennialism Steve!

3. Daniel 2
The new covenant Kingdom of God appeared in the days of the Roman Empire at the coming of Christ. The growth of the Kingdom of God is currently in
progress. The Kingdom of God (the stone) is right now in the process of becoming a great mountain and filling the whole earth. The process of kingdom
growth and the breaking and consuming of nations will be complete at the second coming.

4. Isaiah 2:4
You said, "In principle the influence of Christ and His gospel has already brought a relative peace among the once-warring and brutal nations. But the absolute peace spoken of in the passage shall only be known when the last enemies of God's kingdom have been crushed."
"Absolute peace" is a strawman. You insist on a world of increasing wickedness. Then you just simply contradict yourself with the statement above.
Isaiah 2:4 describes a gradual process in which nations "beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks." This process is
ongoing before the second coming. This is the progress of the Kingdom of God. This is postmillennialism. No doubt we all agree this
process won't be complete until the eternal state and at that time there will be "absolute peace." There will be no weapons or warfare in the eternal
state. Thus, this process is occurring now.

5. You said, "We see when this shall come to pass, as written in Psalm 2:7,8,9," Its not clear, but I think you mean the "absolute peace" that will
come to pass on or after the second coming? No doubt, that will bring about absolute peace but that is not the point as noted above. Furthermore that is a misunderstanding of Psalm 2:7-9 which is is a reference to the resurrection according to Acts 13:33 and Romans 1:4.

6. John 18:36 You said, "My kingdom is not of the world", this indicates the utter antithesis between His kingdom and the world's."
I think your statement is true as far as it goes, however that is not the meaning of the verse.
The actual meaning of the verse is that Jesus' Kingly authority is not derived from, nor dependent upon, political agency. The origin
and nature of His kingdom is not from here. I think this is a fairly common (perhaps consensus) understanding of the verse. I checked
Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown, Bruce Milne, and Ken Gentry before posting this. I can probably find many more.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

Our sermon today was on Mark 13, and the minister who preached for us (our pastor was away) did a fantastic job of showing how the Olivet discourse is about the end of the age of the Jewish dispensation. I think you’ll enjoy this- https://beta.sermonaudio.com/sermons/218242115261752/

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello Andrew, you said,

“It seems dangerous to be preparing for future tribulation when our brothers and sisters in places like west Africa and India and many parts of eastern Asia are being presently butchered for their faith in greater numbers than ever before seen in the history of the world. Again, do you contest that the spread of the Gospel spiritually conquering these lands will end their physical suffering?”

It appears that the “future” tribulation is already commencing in certain areas of the world. It is in such places that the Gospel witness has already been outlawed and silenced. The physical suffering growing across the world will come to us also, where the Gospel will be silenced, and the postmil dreams drowned in blood.
____

You said, “Why pray (as we are instructed in W[L]C 191): ‘that the kingdom of sin and Satan may be destroyed, the gospel propagated throughout the world, the Jews called, the fulness of the Gentiles brought in’ ”? Answer: The kingdom of Satan IS being destroyed as we propagate the gospel throughout the world, his goods (souls) taken from him and brought to Christ – those elect among Jewry called to Christ, and the fulness of the Gentile times come to an end, the elect among them likewise brought in (Luke 21:24), at which time – all the elect having been saved – the very end of the age is upon us, and (Luke 21:27) the Lord shall return in His second coming.

I believe the key to this section of WLC 191 is in these words: “that he would be pleased so to exercise the kingdom of his power in all the world, as may best conduce to these ends”.
____

You further say, “Your consistent spiritual=good / temporal=bad dualism seems to be the contra-Biblical position. There is not a spiritual kingdom vs. a temporal kingdom.”

Paul in Eph 2:2-3, says this: “Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.”

Of this world you say is not a spiritual kingdom, it is written, “the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not” (2 Cor 4:4). The world IS the spiritual kingdom of the devil, the prince that works in the children of disobedience. Supporting this John says, “… the whole world lies in the power of the evil one” (1 John 5:19). When I use the word world or age I am referring to both the world systems in opposition to God and the unregenerate people also opposing Him and His saints. “Because the carnal [the worldly] mind is enmity [hostile] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be” (Rom 8:7).

Andrew, you say to me, “You cannot separate the spiritual from the temporal. When the Spirit is given to a person, it manifests in tangible, temporal, physical fruits: ‘diversities of gifts... diversities of administrations... diversities of operations’ (see 1 Corinthians 12.)”

I reply, Your usage of temporal blurs the sharp distinction between the world and the spirit. By that usage you seek to give what is worldly – what is merely visible or tangible – spiritual qualities. The world, the carnal, the fleshly is hostile to the spiritual. Where there is an antithesis (a direct opposite) you would merge them.

I can – and indeed must – separate them. When the Spirit is given to a person their new spiritual nature manifests its quality in the flesh (or through the flesh), but it is not of the flesh. Your use of temporal clouds the matter.

When you say, “It is the consistent testimony of Scripture that a land of people transformed in spirit cannot but become a land transformed in the flesh”, it would be better – more accurately – said, “…people of a land transformed in spirit cannot but become a community transformed in how they live by the spirit and no longer by the flesh.” This is Scriptural.

The question is, when is “the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began”? Is it not at Jesus’ second coming? This applies also to Psalm 2:9, the wicked shall first be destroyed in fiery judgment at the great conflagration Peter speaks about in 2 Peter 3:10,11,12,13, culminating in a “new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

I shall wind down interacting with you in this thread, Andrew, and let those looking on judge for themselves what is to be held, and what rejected.

I have too much on my plate to put in the labor answering all your views.

 

[Northern Crofter]

Hello Andrew, you said,

“It seems dangerous to be preparing for future tribulation when our brothers and sisters in places like west Africa and India and many parts of eastern Asia are being presently butchered for their faith in greater numbers than ever before seen in the history of the world. Again, do you contest that the spread of the Gospel spiritually conquering these lands will end their physical suffering?”

It appears that the “future” tribulation is already commencing in certain areas of the world. It is in such places that the Gospel witness has already been outlawed and silenced. The physical suffering growing across the world will come to us also, where the Gospel will be silenced, and the postmil dreams drowned in blood.
____

You said, “Why pray (as we are instructed in W[L]C 191): ‘that the kingdom of sin and Satan may be destroyed, the gospel propagated throughout the world, the Jews called, the fulness of the Gentiles brought in’ ”? Answer: The kingdom of Satan IS being destroyed as we propagate the gospel throughout the world, his goods (souls) taken from him and brought to Christ – those elect among Jewry called to Christ, and the fulness of the Gentile times come to an end, the elect among them likewise brought in (Luke 21:24), at which time – all the elect having been saved – the very end of the age is upon us, and (Luke 21:27) the Lord shall return in His second coming.

I believe the key to this section of WLC 191 is in these words: “that he would be pleased so to exercise the kingdom of his power in all the world, as may best conduce to these ends”.
____

You further say, “Your consistent spiritual=good / temporal=bad dualism seems to be the contra-Biblical position. There is not a spiritual kingdom vs. a temporal kingdom.”

Paul in Eph 2:2-3, says this: “Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.”

Of this world you say is not a spiritual kingdom, it is written, “the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not”. The world IS the spiritual kingdom of the devil, the prince that works in the children of disobedience. Supporting this John says, “… the whole world lies in the power of the evil one” (1 John 5:19). When I use the word world or age I am referring to both the world systems in opposition to God and the unregenerate people also opposing Him and His saints. “Because the carnal [the worldly] mind is enmity [hostile] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be” (Rom 8:7).

Andrew, you say to me, “You cannot separate the spiritual from the temporal. When the Spirit is given to a person, it manifests in tangible, temporal, physical fruits: ‘diversities of gifts... diversities of administrations... diversities of operations’ (see 1 Corinthians 12.)”

I reply, Your usage of temporal blurs the sharp distinction between the world and the spirit. By that usage you seek to give what is worldly – what is merely visible or tangible – spiritual qualities. The world, the carnal, the fleshly is hostile to the spiritual. Where there is an antithesis (a direct opposite) you would merge them.

I can – and indeed must – separate them. When the Spirit is given to a person their new spiritual nature manifests its quality in the flesh (or through the flesh), but it is not of the flesh. Your use of temporal clouds the matter.

When you say, “It is the consistent testimony of Scripture that a land of people transformed in spirit cannot but become a land transformed in the flesh”, it would be better – more accurately – said, “…people of a land transformed in spirit cannot but become a community transformed in how they live by the spirit and no longer by the flesh.” This is Scriptural.

The question is, when is “the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began”? Is it not at Jesus’ second coming? This applies also to Psalm 2:9, the wicked shall first be destroyed in fiery judgment at the great conflagration Peter speaks about in 2 Peter 3:10,11,12,13, culminating in a “new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

I shall wind down interacting with you in this thread, Andrew, and let those looking on judge for themselves what is to be held, and what rejected.

I have too much on my plate to put in the labor answering all your views.

It is pleasing to me to say that I agree with much of your response, and I appreciate your taking the time to respond and the gracious tone exhibited. Blessings on you and your work in Cyprus, brother.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello Calvin,

1. The parable of the leaven. The kingdom of heaven is not an abstract concept, nor the general reign of God in all the universe, nor its growth in the world, but rather – as it is used in this parable – it is the people of God. The parable of the mustard seed is about the growth of the kingdom in this world.

I stand by what I clearly and simply said, “It is a parable of the Kingdom of heaven, and those in and of it. The children of the kingdom of heaven are leavened by the word and Spirit of God to grow into maturity and full stature in Christ.” Paul in Eph 4:13KJV, says, “…unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ”

2. We will agree that the remarkable spread of the gospel, and growth of the Kingdom of heaven upon the earth, is a wonder of the Lord’s grace and power. Yet, in many lands it was rejected and its missionaries slain. And it will be increasingly rejected as we near the end of the age.

There is coming a time when the legal testimony of the witnessing church will be finished (Rev 11:7). There was a time when the word of Jesus Himself was silenced – on the cross – right before He died. But His testimony was finished, completed. After His death He rose again after three days, and ascended into heaven to reign after spending some time with His disciples. Our testimony – at the very end – will be silenced by death / imprisonment / etc also. We will have run our course, and when He returns we will be raised from the dead as He was, unto everlasting life and joy. Remember the 5th seal:

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled (Rev 6:9,10,11).​

3. Daniel 2 I don’t disagree with what you said here, though upon further examination we may differ in aspects.

4. Isaiah 2:4. Calvin, you make this statement while quoting me:

“You said, ‘In principle the influence of Christ and His gospel has already brought a relative peace among the once-warring and brutal nations. But the absolute peace spoken of in the passage shall only be known when the last enemies of God’s kingdom have been crushed.’​

​

“Absolute peace” is a strawman. You insist on a world of increasing wickedness. Then you just simply contradict yourself with the statement above.”​

A relative peace is not an absolute peace. The relative peace Christ and His gospel has brought into the world is partial, and it will – by His decree – diminish to nothing at the end of the age when Satan is loosed from his chains to deceive and sic the nations worldwide on the global church. Rev 20:7,8,9. I do not contradict myself.

And make no mistake, it is not I that “insists on a world of increasing wickedness” but God in His word. I have repeatedly shown from Scripture this is the case. Alluding to Psalm 2:1,2,3,4,5, John says (in Rev 11:18), “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.”

Peace, peace, when there is no peace is what the false prophets would assure the people of. Do you not know that those who presume to teach – which is what you and brother Andrew are doing here on this discussion board – will be subject to a stricter judgment? (James 3:1NKJV)

5. Yes, Psalm 2:7-9 references the resurrection of Christ, but not only that, as noted just above.

6. John 18:36. You take the simple, profound, and clear statement of Jesus and add all sorts of qualifiers to it. His kingdom is not of this world, but of heaven, and of the Father. The world is at enmity with [hatred of] God; John 15:24: “now have they [those of the world] both seen and hated both me and my Father.”

We will see this manifest more and more clearly as the days progress toward the climax of evil. You and your compadres may gainsay all you want, it is the days themselves coming that shall rebuke you.

I close this with 1 Cor 15:24,25,26,27,28:

Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For He hath put all things under His feet. But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under Him. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.​

The antithesis will be done away with at this point; then there shall be peace, when all opposing “rule and all authority and power” are put down, and consigned to the lake of fire. Not until then, save for the great peace of our King in our hearts, as He assured us,

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world (John 16:33KJV).​

As I said to Andrew, I will be winding down my conversing with you as I have a heavy load caring for the church (especially at my age, a few weeks from 82) and cannot in good conscience spend the time I have been doing this. I may put in a little, but not much. Those listening in can decide for themselves which view is in accord with Scripture.

P.S. Andrew, thanks for your gracious comment just above!

 

[Calvin Codger]

As I said to Andrew, I will be winding down my conversing with you as I have a heavy load caring for the church (especially at my age, a few weeks from 82) and cannot in good conscience spend the time I have been doing this. I may put in a little, but not much. Those listening in can decide for themselves which view is in accord with Scripture.

P.S. Andrew, thanks for your gracious comment just above!

God Bless you Steve. Thank you for taking the time to "sharpen my iron" brother.