Question for Partial Preterist
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kevin.carroll
Puritan Board Junior
Originally posted by VERITAS
No. I was born in Clinton, MS (while my father was attending RTS). But I live in Memphis (where we moved when he got a teaching job). I attend Reformed Baptist Church (that's the official name).
Ah. I only asked since I saw your signature. I know Jackson's only Reformed Baptist minister quite well.
Kevin.Carroll,
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him," 2 Thess. 2:1,
and,
"For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
for the Lord Himself shall descend with a shout, and the voice of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thes. 4:15-17
Well if this is not the rapture and the second coming,then what is it?
andreas.
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him," 2 Thess. 2:1,
and,
"For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
for the Lord Himself shall descend with a shout, and the voice of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thes. 4:15-17
Well if this is not the rapture and the second coming,then what is it?
andreas.
By the word "Rapture" we mean: the moment in history when the believers in Christ who have not experienced physical death will be changed into their glorified bodies. At that time they will be caught up in the air to be with Christ, even as I Thessalonians 4:17 declares. Nothing more nothing less.The word rapture is not the exclusive property of anyone,providing you define the use of it.
andreas.
[Edited on 4-1-2005 by andreas]
andreas.
[Edited on 4-1-2005 by andreas]
Average Joey
Puritan Board Junior
Originally posted by VERITAS
No. I was born in Clinton, MS (while my father was attending RTS). But I live in Memphis (where we moved when he got a teaching job). I attend Reformed Baptist Church (that's the official name).
Hey that`s also an affiliation with our church.I was thinking you lived further south.Whenever there are Bible Conferences,doesn`t it go from Bridgetown,Reformed Baptist,and Grace Bible during a weekend?
tcalbrecht
Puritan Board Junior
Originally posted by andreas
By the word "Rapture" we mean: the moment in history when the believers in Christ who have not experienced physical death will be changed into their glorified bodies. At that time they will be caught up in the air to be with Christ, even as I Thessalonians 4:17 declares. Nothing more nothing less.The word rapture is not the exclusive property of anyone,providing you define the use of it.
andreas.
[Edited on 4-1-2005 by andreas]
That may be your definition, but that is not what is understood by the term in most Christian circles:
"The term rapture is most commonly used to describe an event in certain systems of christian escathology (study of the end of the world) whereby "faithful" Christians are taken from Earth into Heaven before other events associated with the end of the world take place. This belief is distinguished from another view which states that the end of the world would be experienced by everyone simultaneously."
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
kevin.carroll
Puritan Board Junior
Originally posted by tcalbrecht
Originally posted by andreas
By the word "Rapture" we mean: the moment in history when the believers in Christ who have not experienced physical death will be changed into their glorified bodies. At that time they will be caught up in the air to be with Christ, even as I Thessalonians 4:17 declares. Nothing more nothing less.The word rapture is not the exclusive property of anyone,providing you define the use of it.
andreas.
[Edited on 4-1-2005 by andreas]
That may be your definition, but that is not what is understood by the term in most Christian circles:
"The term rapture is most commonly used to describe an event in certain systems of christian escathology (study of the end of the world) whereby "faithful" Christians are taken from Earth into Heaven before other events associated with the end of the world take place. This belief is distinguished from another view which states that the end of the world would be experienced by everyone simultaneously."
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Thank you, Tom.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Andreas,
NOT A SINGLE PERSON ON THIS BOARD DENIES THE SECOND COMING OF Christ! We just believe that the language in certain passages suggest that Jerusalem is being destroyed, not that believers are being raised.
NOT A SINGLE PERSON ON THIS BOARD DENIES THE SECOND COMING OF Christ! We just believe that the language in certain passages suggest that Jerusalem is being destroyed, not that believers are being raised.
kevin.carroll
Puritan Board Junior
The Olivet Discourse is an excellent example.
Being "caught up together" is called the Rapture. The word Rapture is derived from a Latin term which means "caught away" and is simply used by Christians to avoid repetitive quoting of the entire verse (1 Thess. 4:16) each time we reference the event it describes.It is not my definition, but it is used by many reformed christians.
andreas.
andreas.
ENGLISH:17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
LATIN:17. Deinde nos qui vivemus, ac residui erimus, simul cum ipsis rapiemur in nubibus, in occursum Domini in aera: et sic semper cum Domino erimus.
andreas.
[Edited on 4-2-2005 by andreas]
LATIN:17. Deinde nos qui vivemus, ac residui erimus, simul cum ipsis rapiemur in nubibus, in occursum Domini in aera: et sic semper cum Domino erimus.
andreas.
[Edited on 4-2-2005 by andreas]
Andreas,
Would you describe yourself to a group of unchurched people as Catholic?
Would you describe yourself to a group of unchurched people as Catholic?
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Originally posted by andreas
***NOT A SINGLE PERSON ON THIS BOARD DENIES THE SECOND COMING OF Christ!***
I know that.The question is:
Do we all agree when that blessed event takes place?
andreas.
Right question, wrong context. If you are asking when the Second Coming takes place, then your guess is as good as mine. If you are saying when Scripture says that the SC is, well, our answer is limited. I affirm, once again, that it takes place at the end of what we would call history. Not every scripture reference has to refer to it for the event to be valid. With all due respect, you are continuing not to make the distinction between partial-preterist and full-preterist, the latter being heretical.
J.Vernon McGee has a sermon entitled "You Are a Catholic Priest".
Originally posted by andreas
****Andreas,
Would you describe yourself to a group of unchurched people as Catholic? ****
Can you please put your question in simple terms, so that i can understand it,and what prompted your question?
andreas.
The question is simple and not intended to trick. Let me put it another way: let's say that we were sitting together at a coffee house with a group of ordinary unchurched people. I say, "Andreas is Catholic." Would you object?
If so, why?
My question is prompted by our "rapture" discussion.
[Edited on 4/2/2005 by fredtgreco]
I would not describe myself as a catholic ,for catholicism contradicts scripture. As an example,the Roman Catholics refer to Mary as queen of heaven. The practice abominable .
Prayers for the dead and the sign of the cross.
(Heb 9:27 KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Veneration of angels and deceased saints .
Psa 29:2 KJV Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name; worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness.
The daily mass.
Heb 10:11-12 KJV And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
The worship of Mary . The term "Mother of God" originated at the council of Ephesus and was bestowed upon Mary.
1 Tim 2:5 KJV For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Isa 45:5 KJV I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Priests began to dress differently from the laity thus putting on a religious exterior.
Rev 2:6 KJV But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
The word "Nicolaitans" comes from two Greek words "nikao" which means "conqueror" and "laos" which means "people. They instill belief that they can forgive sins and cause the eucharistic elements to turn into the actual blood and body of Christ.
The doctrine of Purgatory .
Heb 9:27 KJV And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
2 Cor 5:8 KJV We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
THERE IS PLENTY MORE THAT I OBJECT TO.
You have not answered my question as to what prompted the enquiry.
andreas.
Prayers for the dead and the sign of the cross.
(Heb 9:27 KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Veneration of angels and deceased saints .
Psa 29:2 KJV Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name; worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness.
The daily mass.
Heb 10:11-12 KJV And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
The worship of Mary . The term "Mother of God" originated at the council of Ephesus and was bestowed upon Mary.
1 Tim 2:5 KJV For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Isa 45:5 KJV I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Priests began to dress differently from the laity thus putting on a religious exterior.
Rev 2:6 KJV But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
The word "Nicolaitans" comes from two Greek words "nikao" which means "conqueror" and "laos" which means "people. They instill belief that they can forgive sins and cause the eucharistic elements to turn into the actual blood and body of Christ.
The doctrine of Purgatory .
Heb 9:27 KJV And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
2 Cor 5:8 KJV We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
THERE IS PLENTY MORE THAT I OBJECT TO.
You have not answered my question as to what prompted the enquiry.
andreas.
Me Died Blue
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
If I may speak as to where I believe Fred is going with it, surely you would describe yourself as "catholic" in the sense in which the word is used by the Apostles' Creed - and yet as your last post perfectly demonstrates, you would still not be comfortable associating yourself with the word because of the Roman meaning attached to it in nearly all minds today.
So it is with the word "rapture" as having a nearly-universal Dispensational meaning and connotation poured into it today in the minds of nearly everyone, which is not changed by the fact that you don't intend that meaning any more than the description of ourselves as "catholic" being taken to mean Roman Catholic would be changed by us not intending that meaning.
So it is with the word "rapture" as having a nearly-universal Dispensational meaning and connotation poured into it today in the minds of nearly everyone, which is not changed by the fact that you don't intend that meaning any more than the description of ourselves as "catholic" being taken to mean Roman Catholic would be changed by us not intending that meaning.
I do not find the word "Rapture" offensive in any way ,cause i have a clear understanding as to its meaning. I have shown, the word is derived from a Latin word ,and was used by ALL,as in all kinds,of christians ,not just Dispensationalists.The question about "catholic",was unfair, as was not clearly defined, in contrast to the clear definition i offered about the meaning of Rapture.
andreas.
andreas.
my answer, and say to the "unchurched people" ,i am a christian, rather than attach a label to myself.
Me Died Blue
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Originally posted by andreas
I do not find the word "Rapture" offensive in any way ,cause i have a clear understanding as to its meaning. I have shown, the word is derived from a Latin word ,and was used by ALL,as in all kinds,of christians ,not just Dispensationalists.The question about "catholic",was unfair, as was not clearly defined, in contrast to the clear definition i offered about the meaning of Rapture.
andreas.
But words change over time with culture. "Catholic" was once an orthodox term, and an orthodox meaning still exists for it today, but as you showed, that is not the meaning that comes up in most minds today when the word is mentioned. Likewise, even if all Christians once used the term "rapture," and even if a few people such as you still mean the historic definition when you use it today, that is still not the meaning that comes up in most minds today when the word is mentioned.
Likewise, the word "Presbyterian" is another good example. Largely because of the influence of the PCUSA, I would never simply introduce myself to someone as a Presbyterian without adding further qualifications and explanation - for even though it respresents a historically orthodox branch, and even though I still mean that same thing by it, that does nothing to the unfortunate but simple fact that it now immediately evokes thoughts of liberalism in the minds of most people when mentioned. So it is with "rapture" and Dispensationalism, regardless of its historic etymology or your own intended meaning, which is why most of us think it would be much easier and better to simply use a term like "Second Coming."
Average Joey
Puritan Board Junior
That is a good reason you can introduce yourself as a Reformed Presbyterian.If whoever you are telling knew anything,they would understand.
lwadkins
Puritan Board Junior
Speaking of which, I saw an article recently in the newspaper (can't remember which one) that was chronicaling the Presbyterian church's statement of support of the Palestinians in the middle east.
There was no indication in the article that this was the PC (USA) or that it didn't encompass all presbyterians. Of couse the writers in the press who cover Christianity do not understand Christianity which accounts for many of the misrepresentations and silly errors. And the rest of the misrepresentations are just malicious bias
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