Patriotic Songs and Christian Worship

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

As many (if not most) American churches take time out of worshipping God to worship America tomorrow let us remember the illegitimacy of singing so-called "Patriotic Hymns" in Lord's Day Worship.

Separating the State from the Church by Laurence M. Vance

 

[PhilA]

Amen!

 

[jwright82]

I agree. We rightfully say the pledge of allegiance to be an American citizen but not to be a citizen of God’s kingdom. We ought to say the Nicene Creed to pledge our allegiance to the more important kingdom of Christ. So we should not blur these too.

 

[Alan D. Strange]

Thanks, Ben. How right you are!

I preach in a wide variety of Reformed and Presbyterian churches as a seminary professor. I've had to make a note not to preach in certain ones around Memorial Day or the Fourth of July due to patriotic songs played as offertory, special selections, choir piece, etc (all not picked by me). I once preached somewhere where after I pronounced the benediction the congregation sang the Battle Hymn of the Republic (which, of course, I had not picked). That took the cake! So much for "not with swords loud clashing!"

Just say "yes" to the spirituality of the church.

Peace,
Alan

 

[jogri17]

I've been called a traitor by Americans for moving to Canada. Gotta love the midwest!

 

[J. Dean]

Patriotic songs celebrating America are fine.

Just not as worship on Sunday morning.

 

[OPC'n]

As many (if not most) American churches take time out of worshipping God to worship America tomorrow let us remember the illegitimacy of singing so-called "Patriotic Hymns" in Lord's Day Worship.

Separating the State from the Church by Laurence M. Vance

Amen! And likewise when it comes to voting let's remember to vote in the person who supports the Constitution the best and not the one who "could have been a pastor he's sooooo Christian". I'm not sure why so many Christians combine these two offices together.

 

[Scott1]

I understand the regulative principle, and that worship ought not be centered on politics.

Setting aside psalms-only as a discussion,
as I look at the very biblical lyrics of The Battle Hymn of the Republic, I can't see anything violative in it. The lyrics are excellent and burgeoning with truth, centered on God.

The hymn is about GOD making man free.

What could possibly be wrong with that in church?

It seems like hymns like this actually unify and focus on "crown rights" of our Lord.

Somehow, also, I can't find fault with remembering for prayer those who died in battle, and their families left behind, on the sabbath either. Granted, it's not to be the focus of the service, but incidental to it.

Or to thank God for freedoms, beginning with religious freedom, that those who died help secure.

It doesn't seem that just because the Marines later adopted it as their theme song, that that somehow renders it inappropriate.

Lyrics

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord:
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword:
His truth is marching on.

(Chorus)
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
His truth is marching on.

I have seen Him in the watch-fires of a hundred circling camps,
They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps;
I can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps:
His day is marching on.

(Chorus)
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
His day is marching on.

I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel:
"As ye deal with my contemners, so with you my grace shall deal;
Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with his heel,
Since God is marching on."

(Chorus)
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Since God is marching on.

He has sounded forth the trumpet that shall never call retreat;
He is sifting out the hearts of men before His judgment-seat:
Oh, be swift, my soul, to answer Him! be jubilant, my feet!
Our God is marching on.

(Chorus)
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Our God is marching on.

In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free,
While God is marching on.

(Chorus)
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
While God is marching on.

He is coming like the glory of the morning on the wave,
He is Wisdom to the mighty, He is Succour to the brave,
So the world shall be His footstool, and the soul of Time His slave,
Our God is marching on.

(Chorus)
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Our God is marching on.

 

[Steve Curtis]

Setting aside psalms-only as a discussion,
as I look at the very biblical lyrics of The Battle Hymn of the Republic, I can't see anything violative in it. The lyrics are excellent and burgeoning with truth, centered on God.

Somehow, also, I can't find fault with remembering for prayer those who died in battle, and their families left behind, on the sabbath either.

It doesn't seem that just because the Marines later adopted it as their theme song, that that somehow renders it inappropriate.

Some thoughts on the Battle Hymn...
http://theaquilareport.com/why-i-dont-sing-the-battle-hymn-of-the-republic/
[and that is not the Marine Corps Anthem]

 

[Jeffriesw]

Setting aside psalms-only as a discussion,
as I look at the very biblical lyrics of The Battle Hymn of the Republic, I can't see anything violative in it. The lyrics are excellent and burgeoning with truth, centered on God.

Somehow, also, I can't find fault with remembering for prayer those who died in battle, and their families left behind, on the sabbath either.

It doesn't seem that just because the Marines later adopted it as their theme song, that that somehow renders it inappropriate.

Some thoughts on the Battle Hymn...
http://theaquilareport.com/why-i-dont-sing-the-battle-hymn-of-the-republic/
[and that is not the Marine Corps Anthem]

Thank you, I was looking for this article and could not remember where I first read it.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Thanks Steve. I was going to post the same article.

 

[Scott1]

Actually, I prefer this analysis of the hymn.

Biblical references

The song alludes to several Biblical passages:

The first verse begins with an allusion to the coming of the Lord in glory, described in the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27). The second and third lines contain the images of treading out a winepress and a "terrible swift sword." These two images appear in both the Book of Isaiah and the Book of Revelation. Isaiah 27:1 (KJV) states, "In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent," and Isaiah 63:3 states, "I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury." Revelation 14:19 describes an angel casting grapes into "the great winepress of the wrath of God" (14:19), and Revelation 19:15 describes the Word of God who wields "a sharp sword" and "treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

The second verse contains an allusion to the writing on the wall opposite the lampstand in Daniel 5:5. The interpretation of that writing was the announcement of the destruction of the kingdom of Babylon (Daniel 5:17-28).

The third verse refers to God's promise in Genesis 3:15 that a descendant of Eve will someday crush the serpent, while the serpent can strike only at his heel. Indirectly, this also refers to Revelation 12:1-10, where a woman (often interpreted as being The Blessed Virgin Mary and/or the newly formed Christian Church and/or the ancient Israel) bears a child while engaged in struggle with a dragon/serpent. The dragon/serpent is defeated.

The fourth verse uses the imagery of the divine judgment. The first line alludes to the trumpet blast preceding the coming of the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4:16), and the second line, to 2 Corinthians 5:10, which states that "we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." "Be jubilant, my feet!" may be an oblique reference to the Jubilee Year of Leviticus 25:10 in which all slaves were to be freed.

The fifth verse alludes to the glory of the transfiguration (Mark 9:2-3 and Matthew 17:1-2). It also refers to the doctrine that Christians can be made holy through the death of Christ (Colossians 1:21-22).

The sixth verse refers to the Earth as the footstool of God, a claim which appears in Isaiah 66:1, Matthew 5:35, and Acts 7:49.

 

[Philip]

The closest to a Patriotic Hymn that I would ever want to hear in Church is "Eternal Father, Strong to Save" (Navy Hymn---but rather Biblical).

 

[Scott1]

Separating the State from the Church by Laurence M. Vance

....
Instead of worrying about the First Amendment, Christians should be more concerned about the First Commandment. The Lord demands that no gods be put before him — inside or outside of church. God will not give his glory to another (Isaiah 42:8, 48:11). The state must be separated from the church.
....

And while it's not the topic of this thread, this reasoning is not something I'm entirely comfortable with- it sounds more like a total separation of church influence to the state.

We better be concerned about the first amendment, not at the expense of the First Commandment, that is true, but it is not an either/or proposition as this author implies.

Without the first amendment, you're not freely going to even be able to have open discussion like this, let alone be unhindered in corporate worship, including the songs we sing there.

 

[Scott1]

I'm not comfortable with the title of this author's last work, either

Recently by Laurence M. Vance: Mr. Obama, Tear Down This Empire

I haven't read it, only going by the provocative title and the notion it conveys, as he apparently asserts it under the color of religious authority.

Suffice it to say, there is reason to doubt this man's authority to teach us on spiritual authority about the regulative principle, the nature of Christ's Kingdoms, etc.

 

[Edward]

The hymn is about GOD making man free.

No, it's about conflating the Yankee army with Christ, and the Southern troops with Satan. It's a violation of the Third Commandment.

 

[JoannaV]

I suppose it depends on whether you evaluate hymns strictly by the actual words you sing and your interpretation, or by the author's intent etc. We've had such discussions before. Perhaps at least when one is aware of a conflict one could avoid singing a hymn on an occasion which is more likely to remind one of the worldly meanings.

 

[jwithnell]

The Trinity Hymnal has a few that honor God and rightly ascribes to Him the blessings out nation has received. I wouldn't want to go beyond that, though.

 

[Alan D. Strange]

Scott:

The BHR was written by Julia Ward Howe as precisely that: words to John Brown's body (already a marching song sung by Union soldiers) that could be used by the Army of the Potomac as a battle hymn as they went forth as the righteous servants of the Lord, as the Army of the Lord, to slay the Southern devils. Need I go line by line and explicate what she meant?

I agree with you that the spirituality of the church, certainly as meant by our forefathers in nineteenth century Old School Presbyterianism, did not mean a sundering of God and state, a celebration of a secularized state. None of them stood for that. The spirituality of the church does mean the proper separation of the political--the carrying out of particular political programs--from the institutional life of the church, from the church in her gospel proclamation. They all believed that church and state were properly under God, with neither institution over the other.

That having been said, the BHR is a baptizing of the Northern Army and a prayer for and celebration of her success in smashing her enemies. This is not another nation. These are fellow countrymen in rebellion. Once such a war is over is it appropriate that such a song be brought into churches and sung? I think not.

Not to mention, bad theology: Ms. Howe's supposition, as that of many of her age, was that the mere fact of the Incarnation is transformative of us all--Christ's birth does not transfigure (whatever that exactly means in this context) anyone and then empower us to make all men free as He has made all men holy. This universalism/egalitarianism was common then, part of the "transformation" of the gospel happening in the US in the explicit rejection of Calvinism. And the "die to make men free" line is an exhortation for the Army (and all who should join it) to give themselves to that great cause then in progress--sacrifice one's life so that others may enjoy political freedom as the hymn writer understood it. The whole of the hymn is nothing but apocalyptic rhetoric applied to one part of the nation making war on another part (don't say it was a separate nation because that destroys Lincoln's argument and the basis for the War). That's just a little bit of analysis of something that, however we may wish to sing it out of church, has no business in church.

Peace,
Alan

 

[Southern Presbyterian]

**Moderation**

The point of the OP is well made.

We are not going to argue the merits of individual hymns/songs.

Have a Blessed Lord's Day!

Thread Closed.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Well, I'll use my massive board powers just to post one interesting thought I had today after worship.

We're probably the most USMC congregation in the PCA. At one time, 3 members of our Session were Active Duty Marines and a fourth was a retired Marine. Now three of us are retired from the USMC.

Anyhow, we are near the Quantico Marine Base and have a lot of students that come through for a year or two at a time. One of the beloved members of our congregation is a husband and wife couple from Australia. He is attending school here at Quantico and his wife and kids are here with him for two years. They are both members of the Australian military.

Providentially, today my Australian friend was leading singing for the congregation and his wife was playing piano.

God has blessed us with an international congregation (beside Australians we have Ethiopians and others visit). Imagine how strange it would have been for them if we had recited the Pledge of Allegiance or had a colors ceremony as I once witnessed in sadness at a PCA congregation in North Carolina. Imagine how strange it would have been for my Australian friend to have led us in the singing of songs extolling the USA as the land of the free.

I'm happy to have served my nation for 21 years but when I attend worship on Sunday I want our Church to represent the Kingdom of God that calls men and women, boys and girls from every tribe and nation to worship the Triune God. This we have the pleasure of doing because nations from around the world send their Officers to this region to be educated and we're blessed as a Church to have a foretaste of heavenly worship.