Praise Worship

[panta dokimazete]

3. I think that, given the admittedly universal belief and practice of the early church fathers regarding musical instruments -- and Augustine is no exception -- I cannot see his remarks regarding "the stirring notes of the trumpet on the battle-field" as being "rather complimentary."

...because it was obvious to remark that all sound, which is the material of song, is by nature of three kinds. For it is either produced by the voice, as in the case of those who sing with the mouth without an instrument; or by blowing, as in the case of trumpets and flutes; or by striking, as in the case of harps and drums, and all other instruments that give their sound when struck.

CHAP. 18.--NO HELP IS TO BE DESPISED, EVEN THOUGH IT COME FROM A PROFANE SOURCE.

28. But whether the fact is as Varro has related, or is not so, still we ought not to give up music because of the superstition of the heathen, if we can derive anything from it that is of use for the understanding of Holy Scripture;

...and when the trumpet sounds, soldiers know that they are to advance or retreat, or do whatever else the state of the battle requires.

from here

But if the Law, as a schoolmaster, lead unto Grace one made an offender, as though for this purpose more grievously wounded, that he may desire a Physician; against the baneful sweetness, whereby lust prevailed, the Lord gives a sweetness that works good, that by it Continence may the more delight, and "our land gives her fruit," whereby the soldier is fed, who by the help of the Lord wars down sin.

Such soldiers the Apostolic trumpet enkindles for battle with that sound,

from here

I think Augustine uses battlefield analogies and the use of instruments in a positive context.

 

[panta dokimazete]

1. I doubt that "reproach" can be as easily interpreted or translated as "shame" as you understand it. I haven't yet seen the Latin in which he originally wrote the epistle, but I would like to see your interaction with that before you try to change stuff.

Results for 'reproach'
English Latin
reproach insequor, opprobrium

Results for 'opprobrium'
Latin English
opprobrium reproach, disgrace.

so - it could be read to mean - "they disgrace us in comparison"

 

[jaybird0827]

nope - God commands new songs very plainly - not only in the Psalms, but by the prophet Isaiah and even references new songs in Heaven - if we are filled with the Holy Spirit and guided by Scripture, then the new song is acceptable worship.

You still have not convinced me that what is immediate or in a vision of the church triumphant is commanded for the church. You cannot do that. We know that Psalms are commanded for the church. We don't know that any particular songs are commanded for the church. Psalms were in use by the time of Isaiah. That which he speaks in regard to "new songs" is sufficiently covered in the Psalms. The Psalms are sufficient.

There is ample evidence already on this thread contributed by others. There are numerous threads on this forum. As soon as one ends, another one will begin.

You will not convince me to change my position, and I will not convince you to change yours. This is clear.

I hereby resign from this thread. I am done.

 

[Davidius]

Results for 'reproach'
English Latin
reproach insequor, opprobrium

Results for 'opprobrium'
Latin English
opprobrium reproach, disgrace.

so - it could be read to mean - "they disgrace us in comparison"

JD,

I know I said I was bowing out but the conversation has shifted slightly and you're doing some real acrobatics here to make Augustine say something other than what he's plainly saying. Just to first clear the issue up historically, Augustine was not a friend of the Donatists. He supported the use of the Roman military to quell their church movement in Northern Africa.

In this religious exercise, so useful for inducing a devotional frame of mind and inflaming the strength of love to God, there is diversity of usage, and in Africa the members of the Church are rather too indifferent in regard to it; on which account the Donatists reproach us with our grave chanting of the divine songs of the prophets in our churches while they inflame their passions in their revels by the singing of psalms of human composition

I don't see how this statement can rationally be interpreted to mean that Augustine approved of what was going on in their churches. Look at how Augustine contrasts what the other churches were doing compared to the Donatists. Augustine says that what the real Church was doing was "useful for inducing a devotional frame of mind and inflaming the strength of love to God" and says that the Donatists were "too indifferent in regard to it." The Donatists were indifferent toward the practice Augustine is describing as "useful for inducing a devotional frame of mind and inflaming the strength of love to God." Instead, the Donatists "inflame their passions in their revels by the singing of psalms of human composition." Augustine is not saying his own "grave" practice is bad! He's using the word "grave" to describe a reverent, controlled, devotional state of mind and contrasts it with the Donatists inflaming their 'passions' (not their minds!) in their revels (wild parties)! And whereby? They 'sing psalms of human compositions.'

 

[Davidius]

Results for 'reproach'
English Latin
reproach insequor, opprobrium

Results for 'opprobrium'
Latin English
opprobrium reproach, disgrace.

so - it could be read to mean - "they disgrace us in comparison"

Also, you translated the wrong Latin word back into English. Opprobrium is a noun. Augustine is using the verb "to reproach," not the noun "reproach."

insequor : to follow, pursue, assail, reproach, rebuke, attack.

This is not meant to be offensive to you personally, but with this definition of 'insequor' and what I just said previously about the way Augustine contrasts the Donatists with the practice of the rest of the Church, your translation of the word is not at all tenable. This issue of worship is just one of the many problems that Augustine was pointing out in the doctrine of the Donatists.

 

[panta dokimazete]

By the by - thank you all for challenging me!

Dialogue makes me learn more and more!

Glad to have you back, Carolina. and thank you for your winsome tone!

I am at work, but will return.

Food for thought, though - in the quotes above - Augustine seemed to say that musical resources (among others) even from a source you may not agree with doctrinally, may be useful if it assists us to glorify God and can be turned to that purpose.

And on the "reproach" issue - good catch on the noun vs verb, apologies - of course it could still be "they stand as a rebuke in comparison"

I'll touch on your other items in a bit.

 

[Davidius]

By the by - thank you all for challenging me!

Glad to have you back, Carolina.

I am at work, but will return.

Haha thanks! Just as a note, I've made some edits to my most recent contribution.

 

[panta dokimazete]

Also - what do you reckon this means in context?

...there is a diversity of usage...

 

[panta dokimazete]

Haha thanks! Just as a note, I've made some edits to my most recent contribution.

Me too! - to my penultimate post to this one...

 

[panta dokimazete]

Anybody have a link to the original Latin?

 

[NaphtaliPress]

I've looked but I do not think the Latin is online for this letter; note the name is mispelled above I think (it is Januarius). I may be wrong but should be looking for Ad inquistionem Ianuarii. Or under Augustine's letters to Januarius.
The following is a useful table:
http://www02.homepage.villanova.edu/allan.fitzgerald/august5.htm
Someone who has access should check Migne via the reference at this link.

 

[panta dokimazete]

In this context:

We are not, however, to be restrained by this, if more good is to be expected from our consenting with those who are zealous for the ceremony, than loss to be feared from our displeasing those who protest against it. In such a case we ought by all means to adopt it...

Is he not talking about adopting the style of the Donatists's songs?

especially if it be something in defense of which Scripture can be alleged

and in another work:

we ought not to give up music because of the superstition of the heathen, if we can derive anything from it that is of use for the understanding of Holy Scripture;

 

[panta dokimazete]

I've looked but I do not think the Latin is online for this letter; note the name is mispelled above I think (it is Januarius). I may be wrong but should be looking for Ad inquistionem Ianuarii. Or under Augustine's letters to Januarius.
The following is a useful table:
http://www02.homepage.villanova.edu/allan.fitzgerald/august5.htm
Someone who has access should check Migne via the reference at this link.

Thank you - I had found that same reference and thought it linked to the Latin...durn it!

 

[NaphtaliPress]

I will be a DTS library next week and they have Migne and while I intend to spend most of my time in the rare book closet there, if I have time, and patience, I'll try to find it and make a copy. I tend to agree with the EP reading of this, however, I too am not clear what practice in the orthodox churches Augustine is criticizing. That they did not sing in all the churches?

 

[Davidius]

So we can have the full text in front of us:

We are not, however, to be restrained by this, if more good is to be expected from our consenting with those who are zealous for the ceremony, than loss to be feared from our displeasing those who protest against it. In such a case we ought by all means to adopt it, especially if it be something in defense of which Scripture can be alleged: as in the singing of hymns and psalms, for which we have on record both the example and the precepts of the Lord and of His apostles. In this religious exercise, so useful for inducing a devotional frame of mind and inflaming the strength of love to God, there is diversity of usage, and in Africa the members of the Church are rather too indifferent in regard to it; on which account the Donstists reproach us with our grave chanting of the divine songs of the prophets in our churches, while they inflame their passions in their revels by the singing of psalms of human composition, which rouse them like the stirring notes of the trumpet on the battle-field. But when brethren are assembled in the church, why should not the time be devoted to singing of sacred songs, excepting of course while reading or preaching is going on, or while the presiding minister prays aloud, or the united prayer of the congregation is led by the deacon's voice? At the other intervals not thus occupied, I do not see what could be a more excellent, useful, and holy exercise for a Christian congregation.

Now on to my rebuttals.

And on the "reproach" issue - good catch on the noun vs verb, apologies - of course it could still be "they stand as a rebuke in comparison"

Riiiiight

Also - what do you reckon this means in context?

Augustine says there are diverse usages. If something has various usages, that means the same thing can be used in multiple ways, right? I can sing inspired songs in the congregation on the Sabbath and when I am a husband and a father I will sing them with my family. I can sing them in prayer to console myself. There are multiple uses but one substance. This fits very well with what Augustine says in the rest of the passage. He goes on to chide the Donatists because they "are rather too indifferent in regard to it." What is the "it" to which Augustine here refers other than the singing of divine songs, which are "so useful for inducing a devotional frame of mind and inflaming the strength of love to God" and have a "diversity of usages."

indifferent: without interest or concern; not caring; apathetic

As I have touched on in my analysis of the way Augustine contrasts the practice of the Donatists with the rest of the church, he is obviously rebuking the Donatists for being so indifferent (disinterested) with regard to the singing of these divine songs which are so beneficial in so many ways. Instead, they have "psalms of human composition" which "inflame their passions in their revels." He is directly juxtaposing and contrasting how the Donatists were 'inflaming their passion in their revels' with these songs composed by man and the 'inducing of a devotional frame of mind' that leads to 'strength of love to God,' which was done with 'hymns and psalms.' We cannot but conclude first that Augustine is not in favor of what was going on as well as that he attributes the error of the Donatists with their use of 'psalms of human composition.'

After reading the entire passage that you provided, it seems to me that the only thing Augustine is perhaps commending is human songs for things other than corporate worship.

Note this and tell me what you think:

...which rouse them like the stirring notes of the trumpet on the battle-field. But when brethren are assembled in the church, why should not the time be devoted to singing of sacred songs, excepting of course while reading or preaching is going on, or while the presiding minister prays aloud, or the united prayer of the congregation is led by the deacon's voice? At the other intervals not thus occupied, I do not see what could be a more excellent, useful, and holy exercise for a Christian congregation.

This fits well with your last quote from another work of Augustine, which said that music should not "be given up because of the heathen." We shouldn't stop listening to music altogether because of the fact that the heathen have so greatly perverted it. Some people would think that listening to any heathen music or reading any heathen literature should be considered wrong. However, because of common grace we can gain, to an extent, useful things from this. For example, the art of Logic, given to us by the Greek philosophers, is of great use in following the arguments made in scripture and in making our own arguments when writing/speaking.

We are not, however, to be restrained by this, if more good is to be expected from our consenting with those who are zealous for the ceremony, than loss to be feared from our displeasing those who protest against it. In such a case we ought by all means to adopt it, especially if it be something in defense of which Scripture can be alleged: as in the singing of hymns and psalms, for which we have on record both the example and the precepts of the Lord and of His apostles.

It looks to me like Augustine is talking about aspects of the worship ceremony other than singing here at the beginning (perhaps we need more context from the beginning of this section) because he mentions that their practices should be adopted if Scripture can defend it by examples and precepts. He then makes a transition and uses the singing of 'psalms and hymns' as an example of an element of the worship ceremony because it can be defended by 'the example and the precepts of the Lord and His apostles.' If you add this on to what I just said about the end of the fuller paragraph you quoted, it all ties together nicely. He uses singing inspired psalms as an example of something that should be adopted in the worship ceremony due to examples and precepts of Jesus and the Apostles. He then goes on to chide the Donatists for being indifferent to this practice and instead inflaming their passions and their revels with psalms of human composition. He then goes on to say that men should be allowed to compose songs (in general, which fits with your other quote about the heathens' songs) but that these songs have no such place when we are 'assembled in the Church.'

 

[Davidius]

One more thing.

As I already noted in a much earlier post, worship songs other than the Psalms were outlawed at the Council of Chalcedon in 451 (21 years after Augustine's death) because heresies (like those of the Donatists) were being introduced through such songs. Augustine was the Bishop of Hippo and since the issue probably didn't just fall into the lap of the Council in 451 it's quite likely that Augustine was one of those pushing for this kind of ruling, especially after reading that text.

 

[AV1611]

Sorry - been there and done that - these refer contextually to 3 different song forms commonly utilized by the culture and early church.

If you say so...

 

[CDM]

On more thing.

As I already noted in a much earlier post, worship songs other than the Psalms were outlawed at the Council of Chalcedon in 451 (21 years after Augustine's death) because heresies (like those of the Donatists) were being introduced through such songs. Augustine was the Bishop of Hippo and since the issue probably didn't just fall into the lap of the Council in 451 it's quite likely that Augustine was one of those pushing for this kind of ruling, especially after reading that text.

Good point,

 

[panta dokimazete]

Trying to contextualize "revels":

Letter 29
When I was informed after your departure that some were becoming openly violent, and declaring that they could not submit to the prohibition (intimated while you were here) of that feast which they call Lætitia, vainly attempting to disguise their revels under a fair name,

Letter 22 Since, however, these drunken revels and luxurious feasts in the cemeteries are wont to be regarded by the ignorant and carnal multitude as not only an honour to the martyrs, but also a solace to the dead, it appears to me that they might be more easily dissuaded from such scandalous and unworthy practices in these places,

Contra Faustum, Book XV In this doctrine of lying devils you are invited to fabulous dwellings of angels in a happy clime, and to fragrant fields where nectar flows for ever from trees and hills, in seas and rivers. These are the fictions of your foolish heart, which revels in such idle fancies.

Looks like it is always used in a negative connotation - so, I'll at least concede that he is not implying that their revels are appropriate.

More to come.

 

[Davidius]

Looks like it is always used in a negative connotation - so, I'll at least concede that he is not implying that their revels are appropriate.

More to come.

And he says that their revels are inflamed by the use of psalms of human composition....I wonder what his opinion of these psalms of human composition is...

 

[Augusta]

And he says that their revels are inflamed by the use of psalms of human composition....I wonder what his opinion of these psalms of human composition is...

Coming from a charismatic church where they deliberately "inflamed" the congregation this makes a lot of sense. God wants worship in spirit and truth, not emotional roller coaster worship that is whipped up and manipulated.

 

[panta dokimazete]

And he says that their revels are inflamed by the use of psalms of human composition....I wonder what his opinion of these psalms of human composition is...

Simply songs not inspired by the Holy Spirit.

As opposed to someone with the Holy Spirit in them composing songs.

It would certainly fit his opinion of the Donatists.

Just as I would consider songs about God and Christ written by Mormons.

 

[panta dokimazete]

Also - to give context when Augustine mentions the "divine songs of the prophets in our churches" it is likely he considered himself a prophet in his church. that would certainly draw a contrast to merely human compositions...

The bishop in Ignatius, moreover, is not only an administrative and liturgical officer. He is also a prophet. This is especially true in his own case. In Philad., ch. 7, he gives us an instance of his gifts in this direction, while the name Theophorus ("God-inspired"), which he assumes, is likely not a 77 proper name but an epithet to indicate his prophetic character. One may note, similarly, how he urges Polycarp to seek for heavenly revelations (Poly. 2:2). Not inappropriately, therefore, did the Smyrnaeans remember Polycarp as "an apostolic and prophetic teacher"

from here

 

[Davidius]

Simply songs not inspired by the Holy Spirit.

As opposed to someone with the Holy Spirit in them composing songs.

It would certainly fit his opinion of the Donatists.

Just as I would consider songs about God and Christ written by Mormons.

A song is either written by man or by the Holy Spirit. A song "Inspired by the Holy Spirit" would be Scripture. We already have 150 songs that were inspired by the Holy Spirit. One would need to proclaim oneself a prophet before saying that their writings are inspired by the Holy Spirit. If they aren't a prophet, they should just say their songs are what they are: of human composition. There is no third category. If what you are saying is from the Holy Spirit then what you're saying is infallible and absolutely authoritative and should be added to the Bible.

 

[panta dokimazete]

The inspiration to write a song is quite a bit different than the inspiration to write Scripture, even though Scripture contains some songs, just as it contains some prayers.

I would equate the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to write a song much the same as the inspiration that guides us in prayer.

We can pray "uninspired" and "Inspired" prayers in church, so in likewise manner...

 

[Kaalvenist]

The inspiration to write a song is quite a bit different than the inspiration to write Scripture, even though Scripture contains some songs, just as it contains some prayers.

I would equate the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to write a song much the same as the inspiration that guides us in prayer.

We can pray "uninspired" and "Inspired" prayers in church, so in likewise manner...

And it is that kind of playing around with the word "inspired" that has led men to claim the Scriptures to be "inspired," but not actually the infallible Word of God. When we speak of "inspired" vs. "uninspired" songs, we are referring to songs which have or have not been indited by the Holy Ghost, and committed to Scripture; or canonical vs. non-canonical songs. Please don't confuse the issue by watering down the term "inspired."

 

[panta dokimazete]

not my intent, Kaal...thus the capital "I" on inspired - and to further clarify: when I pray in church it is "uninspired" and the songs I write and sing in church are "uninspired"...unless I am praying the Scripture or singing Scripture, then my prayer and song is Inspired to the degree that I am a vessel communicating the Holy Infallible Inspired Word of God

To the degree that I am a bearer or temple of the Holy Spirit and to the degree that I am guided by the Holy Spirit and validated by Scripture I am "i"nspired - but my little "i" inspired prayer and song is acceptable to God as worship.

 

[gwine]

And he says that their revels are inflamed by the use of psalms of human composition....I wonder what his opinion of these psalms of human composition is...

It could refer to songs that people composed from their wrongful interpretation of Scripture, as was pointed out. I wonder why, if it is ok to sing The Psalms in the common language, we can not sing other Scripture as well, since it is, after all, the inspired word of God made known in the common tongue.

From the WCF XVI

VI. Notwithstanding, the persons of believers being accepted through Christ, their good works also are accepted in Him;[20] not as though they were in this life wholly unblamable and unreproveable in God's sight;[21] but that He, looking upon them in His Son, is pleased to accept and reward that which is sincere, although accompanied with many weaknesses and imperfections.

Would you consider worship a good work? And if so would not the singing of Scripture (including the Psalms) be a sincere effort to please God? Or do you think a paraphrase is wrong, since a song typically doesn't exactly follow the wording of Scripture? And, if paraphrases are wrong, how far off can we go in singing The Psalms before we go outside the camp?

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Would you consider worship a good work? And if so would not the singing of Scripture (including the Psalms) be a sincere effort to please God? Or do you think a paraphrase is wrong, since a song typically doesn't exactly follow the wording of Scripture? And, if paraphrases are wrong, how far off can we go in singing The Psalms before we go outside the camp?

If EP is prescribed for song everything else is proscribed; so it still gets back to the basic argument. As far as paraphrases see the article linked below.
​

Psalmody Objections Answered: Paraphrases
http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/paraphrases.htm

​

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Since yet another thread has morphed into yet another EP discussion perhaps this thread needs renaming?