Prayer meeting question

[Watson81]

I attend a church that doesnt teach or believe in keeping the 4th commandment and in many ways tramples foot on the 2nd commandment. They have a prayer meeting every week and its heavy on my heart that God would be honored and his will would be done in restoring these things to his bride. I know if I was to pray for these things the Pastor would most likely be offended. He already called me a legalist because I won't sing hymns and won't go out to eat on the Lords day with them. ( for my job i have to work shift work once a month on the Lords Day and he says im a hypocrite) I dont want to fear man but I also dont want to be offensive and want to walk in humility and meekness with wisdom that comes from above. Any advice would be great

 

[SolaScriptura]

Keep praying and be patient. But bear in mind that you’re the one bringing in something that’s out of accord with what they believe, so don’t expect warm reception to those beliefs. I’d suggest you do some soul-searching… God didn’t put you there for you to consider yourself to be your pastor’s teacher, but rather to be shepherded by your pastor. If you can’t do that, submit to his leadership in good conscience, they may not be the church for you.

 

[jwithnell]

I suspect the Lord knows his commandments well. You have plenty of time on your own to pray for the Spirit's illumination to his people.

If you're seeking to counsel others, you are likely to have more influence addressing your peers in the church one on one. And likely that will be more effective in casual situations outside of church.

Going up against the church leadership which has made its position known -- and in a public setting -- is rarely wise.

 

[Ed Walsh]

I know if I was to pray for these things the Pastor would most likely be offended. He already called me a legalist because I won't sing hymns and won't go out to eat on the Lords day with them. ( for my job i have to work shift work once a month on the Lords Day and he says im a hypocrite) I dont want to fear man but I also dont want to be offensive and want to walk in humility and meekness with wisdom that comes from above. Any advice would be great

I'm going through Samuel Rutherford's letters. I think I finished about 45 of them. So I'm sure that's coloring my thinking tonight, because it's blowing my mind to hear what he says. I don't know of any minister in the world who loves the Lord as Samuel Rutherford did. And he didn't keep it to himself. In his letters, when there's a terrible disaster in somebody's family, the death of a child or whatever, Rutherford just tells the truth in such a warm, winsome way that he gets across the gospel that this too is from the hand of God and we need to improve it. My point is, if you are concerned and have evidence that the church is not what the Lord Jesus would have it to be. As gently as possible, you have to tell them that this is not how it should be done. You'll have to fill in those words.

I'm a member of a PCA church that has got to be one of the most loving groups of people I've ever come across. But there are a number of inconsistencies, outright ignorance and willfulness about the reformed churches going down a different path than they did for hundreds of years. I have an appointment to speak to my pastor about these matters. I told him my position is that we are a very loving Church, but we're not what we should be in all areas. I'm going to see if he's interested because someone else is, and maybe he is hoping for change, but he's too new and too young to do anything. So he may think. Speak the word of God with the love of God with love in your heart to the people you're talking to. I guess I'm speaking specifically about your pastor. He doesn't need a fight, but he does need help.

You could write privately to me and go into a little more detail. But you're getting your ideas across pretty well right here, too.

Good night in Christ's love,

Ed

 

[Watson81]

I've only been saved for 4 years but in the last couple of months John 15 has been a real experience and Christ has shown me what it is to abide in him and constant fellowship with him. The love of Christ is almost to much at times. Im beginning to understand what Samuel Rutherford and M'Cheyne were talking about. I know that joyfully keeping Christ's commands and prayer are key. I just want my church and pastor to taste and see that the Lord is good and have Isaiah 58 13 come to life.

 

[py3ak]

Naturally, we are sympathetic to your concerns and share your zeal for reformation in your church. And you certainly ought to make these things a matter of prayer!

That being said, using a time of corporate prayer as an opportunity to rebuke the church or its leadership is both inappropriate and likely to put up stumbling blocks to people hearing the truth about these matters with any kind of open heart or willingness to consider.

 

[philomath]

Sorry you're having to deal with this, I'll be praying for you and this situation. As for the present situation with the prayer meeting, I'll let others speak on it.

I do have a few thoughts on some other things you said though.

I find that broadly evangelical churches typically don't believe in keeping the 4th commandment, many thinking it is "part of the ceremonial law and not moral". The closest some seem to get is "rest from work 1 day (any day) in 7, as long as you go to church". Sabbatarian views are often offensive to antisabbatarians because it suggests they're sinning with their habit of Sunday brunch at a restaurant, a habit many have probably had for years.

As for your pastor calling you a legalist, that is sad. I've seen churches where they'll call you a legalist for holding a sabbatarian view of The Lord's Day in one breath and immoral for thinking Christians have liberty to taste a little wine in the next breath. It is strange. Being charitable, maybe your pastor has never had a fair hearing of the sabbatarian view of The Lord's Day and doesn't understand it.

There are a couple things I would consider in future conversations with him on the topic. Consider the beauty of The Lord's Day. A lot of evangelicals who are antisabbatarian see sabbatarianism as a negative thing, trying to take away freedom, when in reality it's true freedom. I heard a sermon years ago by Sinclair Ferguson that helped to shift my thinking on this. His main question was practically, "why wouldn't you want a day to rest from your work and spend in the public and private worship of God? And why wouldn't you want it commanded if it's for your good?" In the times when I misspent The Lord's Day, even before I accepted sabbatarianism, I've felt rough. When I've spent it well in the public and private worship of God, duties of necessity and mercy, and abstaining from work, i've felt utterly refreshed.

One more thing I think people need to consider: is their Sunday lunch eating out adding to the reasons people don't go to church? "Would you like to join me for church tomorrow?" "I'd love to, but can't since I'll be working lunch shift." I've had that conversation multiple times.

 

[darrellmaurina]

I attend a church that doesnt teach or believe in keeping the 4th commandment and in many ways tramples foot on the 2nd commandment. They have a prayer meeting every week and its heavy on my heart that God would be honored and his will would be done in restoring these things to his bride. I know if I was to pray for these things the Pastor would most likely be offended. He already called me a legalist because I won't sing hymns and won't go out to eat on the Lords day with them. ( for my job i have to work shift work once a month on the Lords Day and he says im a hypocrite) I dont want to fear man but I also dont want to be offensive and want to walk in humility and meekness with wisdom that comes from above. Any advice would be great

The counsel of others is wise. The prayer meeting is not the right time for an individual member to challenge the church's leadership openly and verbally. There may be right times and right places, but that isn't it.

God knows your prayers. Sometimes it's best that nobody else knows what you're praying.

I will give a piece of encouragement as advice, speaking as the husband of a Korean who is used to daily dawn prayer meetings: Many broad evangelicals who are not in agreement with the Reformed faith on doctrine are DEFINITELY in appreciation of the prayer meeting. One of the best ways to demonstrate that you are not a legalist but care about personal faith is to be known as a man of prayer. You can't be doing it for that reason -- the warnings against ostentatious public prayers apply -- but attending the prayer meeting regularly is wise.

Keep attending unless there is something happening that, as a matter of conscience, you simply cannot tolerate. It better be REALLY bad, on the level of asking you to pray the Rosary or kiss an image of a saint, neither of which are likely to happen in any sort of evangelical church. (I cite those because you mention Second Commandment violations.) As for other problems that you may see, you can choose quietly not to sing a hymn or not to pray a prayer, but it takes REALLY awful stuff to justify refusal to attend at all, given that you are a member of this church and presumably have taken vows to support and pray for its ministry and its leaders. If you can't commit to praying for your church and its leaders, you need to leave. And again, it better be REALLY bad if you can't even pray for them.

Now on the issue of working one day a month: Is your job one which is, or can at least possibly be considered to be, a work of necessity or charity?

A lot of Reformed churches are really strict on Sabbath observance. I have seen a Reformed church blame a police dispatcher for choosing to accept a job that obviously requires Sunday work. The elders' argument was that it wouldn't be sin if the dispatcher had been forced to work on Sunday (for example, a military draft) but was sin because the dispatcher voluntarily took the job. The next question, of course, is "Are you anti-police? What if it had been a police officer, not a dispatcher? Do you really think criminals should have a free day, once per week, to commit any crime they want?"

That's too far. It may not be a good idea to take a job where Sunday work is legitimately required, even if the job is one of necessity or charity, but we can't forbid it.

A more common problem is being too loose. If your job cannot be in any way considered a work of charity or necessity, you need to be looking for other employment. Also, I've been in your shoes of being invited out to eat with the pastor and elders of a (former) church, and having an elder in another former church call me on Sunday while he was shopping at a store. Both were in confessionally Reformed churches where Lord's Day observance was in the confessions but was not emphasized, or the implications of shopping and/or eating on Sunday forcing others to work weren't taught.

Gray areas exist and I know that, but some jobs are obviously a yes or a no. You know your job, we don't, and you will have a better idea than we do of whether it can be considered in any way a legitimate work of charity or necessity.

 

[Ed Walsh]

Gray areas exist and I know that, but some jobs are obviously a yes or a no. You know your job, we don't, and you will have a better idea than we do of whether it can be considered in any way a legitimate work of charity or necessity.

Some people consider the works of necessity and mercy as both a pain in the neck and a counterproductive way to keep the Lord's Day. If you want to understand how we are to view the Lord's Day, I suggest that you follow Jesus through all of his Lord's days recorded in the New Testament. He was not idle. He healed people, he walked with his disciples eating the heads of grains as they went.

On the Sabbath I spend many hours in my private devotions. At times the entire day. But other times, after my devotions, I head out to the Appalachian Trail and look for people to tell about the gospel. If that isn't a good use of the Sabbath day, I don't know what is. I've witnessed to many hundreds of people in the last year or two. But I did make a deal with God. Not the kind of deal where you're in the Foxhole and you say if I get out of here alive I'll serve you type of thing. But the Delight of sharing the gospel with people who I could only see on Sunday. My one condition is that I never know if I help anybody. And the Appalachian Trail is perfect for that. In the past I've had difficulty with pride so my deal is simple, as long as you don't let me find out if I'm successful in this life I will continue. The Sabbath surely is made for man and not man for the Sabbath. But the image of sitting down over your books contemplating your navel all day long is not my idea of the Sabbath at all.

 

[Ed Walsh]

Here was my question to Gemini
There's a discussion going on the Puritan board about just how to keep the Sabbath. The Westminster Confession says that we're to rest in the Lord except for works necessity and mercy. They view these works of necessity and mercy as a nuisance and something you have to bear up under, rather than part of the heart of the Sabbath.

Could you find all the places where Jesus was doing something on the Sabbath. I think we will find that he "worked" a lot of things including miracles on the Sabbath. Let's see what you come up with.

Gemini's answer to my question about the Sabbath is as follows:

~~~~~~~​

Lord of the Sabbath
A Biblical Study of Jesus’ Activity and Miracles on the Seventh Day
In many theological circles, historically including parts of the Reformed and Puritan traditions, the Westminster Confession's allowance for works of “necessity and mercy” on the Sabbath can inadvertently be treated as a reluctant concession. These exceptions are sometimes viewed as a nuisance or an unfortunate disruption to true spiritual rest, rather than being recognized as foundational to the day's intent.

However, an examination of the Gospels reveals that Jesus did not treat works of mercy as an emergency escape hatch. Instead, he approached them as the very heartbeat and fulfillment of the Sabbath. He routinely went out of his way to heal on the Seventh Day, actively inviting controversy to break through legalistic definitions and reveal the restorative heart of God.

Comprehensive Gospel Breakdown​

1. The Disciples Plucking Grain
Matthew 12:1–8 | Mark 2:23–28 | Luke 6:1–5
The Action / Work: The disciples plucked heads of grain, rubbed them in their hands, and ate because they were hungry while walking through a field.

The Controversy: Pharisaical oral tradition strictly categorized plucking as reaping and rubbing as threshing—both forbidden forms of work.

Jesus’ Defense: Jesus points to King David eating the bread of the Presence when hungry, and notes that priests technically “profane” the Sabbath by working in the Temple but are guiltless. He declares: “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath,” establishing Himself as the “Lord of the Sabbath.”

2. Healing the Man with the Withered Hand
Matthew 12:9–14 | Mark 3:1–6 | Luke 6:6–11
The Action / Work: Jesus restores a man's paralyzed hand during a synagogue service.

The Controversy: Religious leaders actively watched him to find an accusation, as rabbinic law generally permitted medical treatment on the Sabbath only if a human life was in immediate peril.

Jesus’ Defense: He confronts them directly: “Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?” He reasons that if any of them had a sheep fall into a pit on the Sabbath, they would lift it out. Therefore, a human being is of vastly greater value than a sheep.

3. Healing a Demon-Possessed Man in Capernaum
Mark 1:21–28 | Luke 4:31–37
The Action / Work: Jesus commands an unclean spirit to come out of a man while teaching in the Capernaum synagogue.

The Controversy: While this act did not trigger an immediate formal rebuke in the text, it fundamentally cast Jesus’ Sabbath activity as a mechanism of spiritual liberation and warfare against the powers of darkness.

Jesus’ Defense: The authority of His command left the onlookers amazed, demonstrating that the Sabbath is uniquely suited for breaking the bonds of evil and restoring spiritual sanity.

4. Healing Peter’s Mother-in-Law
Mark 1:29–31 | Luke 4:38–39
The Action / Work: Immediately following the synagogue service, Jesus enters Peter's house and heals his mother-in-law of a severe fever.

The Controversy: This constitutes a domestic work of relief and healing on the holy day, moving beyond corporate synagogue settings into private spaces.

Jesus’ Defense: Jesus demonstrates that the home is equally a venue for Sabbath renewal. Remarkably, the text notes that as soon as the fever left her, she arose and began to serve them—illustrating an immediate pivot from receiving mercy to actively practicing it.

5. Healing the Crippled Woman
Luke 13:10–17
The Action / Work: Jesus heals a woman who had been bent double, completely unable to straighten herself, by a disabling spirit for 18 years.

The Controversy: The ruler of the synagogue became indignant, telling the crowd: “There are six days in which work ought to be done. Come on those days and be healed, and not on the Sabbath day.”

Jesus’ Defense: Jesus calls them hypocrites, noting that everyone unties their ox or donkey from the stall to lead it to water on the Sabbath. He reasons: “And ought not this woman, a daughter of Abraham whom Satan bound for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath day?”

6. Healing the Man with Dropsy (Edema)
Luke 14:1–6
The Action / Work: Jesus dines at the house of a prominent Pharisee on the Sabbath and encounters a man suffering from severe swelling (dropsy), whom He heals.

The Controversy: The lawyers and Pharisees watched Him closely, seeking an opportunity to accuse Him of law-breaking in a formal social setting.

Jesus’ Defense: Anticipating their legalism, Jesus asks: “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath, or not?” When they remain silent, He heals the man and drives home the point: “Which of you, having a son or an ox that has fallen into a well on a Sabbath day, will not immediately pull him out?” They were left entirely speechless.

7. Healing the Paralytic at the Pool of Bethesda
John 5:1–18
The Action / Work: Jesus heals an invalid of 38 years and explicitly commands him: “Get up, take up your bed, and walk.”

The Controversy: The Jewish leaders violently confronted the man for carrying his sleeping mat (a direct violation of rabbinic carrying laws) and subsequently persecuted Jesus for doing these things on the Sabbath.

Jesus’ Defense: Jesus delivers a profound theological defense: “My Father is working until now, and I am working.” God does not cease sustaining the universe, generating life, or extending divine providence on the Seventh Day; therefore, the Son operates in perfect alignment with that continuous stream of divine mercy.

8. Healing the Man Born Blind
John 9:1–41
The Action / Work: Jesus expectorates on the ground, mixes saliva with dirt to form mud, anoints a blind man's eyes, and sends him to wash in the Pool of Siloam.

The Controversy: The preparation of mud was explicitly classified as “kneading” or “building” under rabbinic traditions. The Pharisees concluded: “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.”

Jesus’ Defense: Jesus frames the event as an open manifestation of the “works of God.” He exposes the profound irony that the religious elite possess total spiritual blindness, while the healed man receives both physical sight and true spiritual vision.
Theological Synthesis for Sabbath Debates

When evaluating these historical narratives against a strictly restrictive framework, a profound paradigm shift becomes clear. Jesus did not merely navigate around the edges of the Sabbath law; He actively targeted legalistic distortions to reposition mercy at the core of the day.

Dimension The Pharisaical / Restrictive View Jesus’ View and Practice
Tone of the Day Passive, restrictive, protective hedging, and characterized by a catalogue of strict prohibitions. Active, life-giving, liberating, and characterized by joyful restoration.

Works of Mercy A reluctant exception permitted only under extreme circumstances when human life is in immediate danger. The very essence and fulfillment of the day; the active reversal and correction of the Fall.

Sabbath Rest Defined strictly as the complete cessation of human physical exertion and labor. Defined as resting in God's restorative work and emulating the Father's continuous goodness.

“The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.” — Mark 2:27–28

Conclusion:
Jesus did not stumble into these healing opportunities accidentally; He orchestrated them intentionally. By repeatedly showcasing that divine power relieves suffering on the holy day, He demonstrated that stopping mundane labor is only half the command. The true rest of the Sabbath is found when we actively participate in restoration, celebrate spiritual liberation, and embody the life-giving goodness of the Father.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Bownd argues that acts of mercy are part of sanctifying the Lord's Day; but I don't have that to hand. Below will have to suffice.

As Athanasius well observes, Non otij causa: “God did not give the Sabbath principally for rest, for then He commanded two lambs to be slain in the morning”—as we shall have occasion anon to show it more particularly—“and two in the evening; and that twelve loaves should be set upon the table with frankincense, etc. (Num 28:9; Lev. 24:6). If He had delighted in idleness, He would not have commanded so many things to be done upon the day of rest.”[1]
And truly if men did only rest upon this day, and had nothing else to do, their very cattle, even their ox and their ass might keep as good a Sabbath as they.
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[1] . Athanasius, Matt. 11 [sic]. See Num. 28:9 and Lev. 24:6. [“Non enim principaliter ocij causa….” Cf. S. Athanasius–Dubia, De Sabbatis et Circumcisione, §1. PG 28, col. 134, §1. “Non enim otii præcipue causa….” Opera (1600; Gesuiti: Collegio Romano, 1601) 761.]

Nicholas Bownd, Sabbathum Veteris Et Novi Testamenti: or, The True Doctrine of the Sabbath (1606; Naphtali Press and Reformation Heritage Books, 2015) page 302.