Prevenient Grace?

[classicalkev]

In my ongoing wrestlings with the order of things transpiring around regeneration, I have been pondering some form of prevenient grace. I have posted something about this before, but it has resurfaced in my studies, and I can't ignore it. Nor can I accept it or teach it without much more study on my part, and getting some insight from the respectable saints on this board. Now I do not mean it in the Arminian sense of the term of course, but is there some preparatory operations of the Spirit within God's elect before their regeneration? There are several passages in scripture which seem to insinuate that this may be so. For instance, Jesus says that no one can come to him except drawn by the Father (John 6:44). Now, if coming to Jesus is equivalent to regeneration, does it not follow that 'being drawn' preceeds this?

Or take another statement of our Lord: "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matt. 11:28).

Again, if coming to Christ is regeneration, then 'labouring' and being heavy laden must be before this. But I cannot see a sinner having this disposition without the Spirit dealing with him in some measure. Is being 'heavy laden' the preparatory work to regeneration carried out by the Holy Spirit?

Take one other example. "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price." (Is. 55:1). Compare Rev. 22:17: "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely"

Does a sinner thirst for the waters BEFORE he actually drinks from it? Or does he thirst only AFTER he drinks?

Perhaps I am over analyzing these texts, and others which portray some motion in the sinner (on the cover atleast) prior to salvation. I would greatly appreciate your thoughts, and help if I am in error.

Thanks brethren.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

I believe that man being created in the image of God naturally has a desire to seek God and fill the void left in him since the fall. That doesn't mean that he loves God or even can love God. He cannot he is totally unable without the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. However, he is curious and he is seeking and he does indeed worship something. Man was created to worship amd must do so in one way or another.

The way I understand the order of salvation is as follows:

Election/Predestination/Gospel Call/Effectual Call (regeneration)/Faith/Repentance/Adoption (Indwelling)/Sanctification/Glorification

I think that during the gospel call one considers the issue at hand. Really it is more of a command to repent and trust Christ than an offer.

 

[toddpedlar]

I believe that man being created in the image of God naturally has a desire to seek God and fill the void left in him since the fall.

This isn't consistent with either the Scriptures or the Westminster Standards (or LBCF for that matter).

Does Adam, upon his sin, seek to repair the breach of relationship with God? No, he hides and wants to keep away from him. Mankind are all like Adam by nature in this way. Furthermore, see what Paul has to say about all people in Romans 3:

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

“Their throat is pan open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”

“The venom of asps is under their lips.”

“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”

“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they have not known.”

“There is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Rom 3:9-18, ESV)

This is Jew and Gentile alike - by nature we want nothing to do with God, rejecting His demands, and rejecting Him until the Lord through His Holy Spirit works a change in heart in us.
Chapter 9, WCF:

CHAPTER 9
OF FREE WILL

1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil.

2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.

3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin; and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.

5. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only.

further, WLC Q&A 25:

Q. 25. Wherein consisteth the sinfulness of that estate whereinto man fell?
A. The sinfulness of that estate whereinto man fell, consisteth in the guilt of Adam's first sin, the want of that righteousness wherein he was created, and the corruption of his nature, whereby he is utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite unto all that is spiritually good, and wholly inclined to all evil, and that continually; which is commonly called original sin, and from which do proceed all actual transgressions.

By the Fall ALL men are utterly indisposed to spiritual good. This includes God. We don't by nature "seek" Him. Those who "seek" are often seeking benefits and the good gifts of God for His people when they hear of them - but they aren't necessarily seeking God Himself. There is a huge and incredibly important difference between these things. Some ARE seeking God - and those who are we know to have been regenerated by the Spirit of God. It is NOT something the natural man is inclined to - this much is quite clear.

 

[earl40]

Election/Predestination/Gospel Call/Effectual Call (regeneration)/Faith/Repentance/Adoption (Indwelling)/Sanctification/Glorification

I think that during the gospel call one considers the issue at hand. Really it is more of a command to repent and trust Christ than an offer.

Good point in that the gospel or general call In my most humble opinion preceeds regeneration. Now my question would be...How does The Holy Spirit regenerate someone by using the Gospel if the "information" has to be heard before one is regenerated?

 

[toddpedlar]

Election/Predestination/Gospel Call/Effectual Call (regeneration)/Faith/Repentance/Adoption (Indwelling)/Sanctification/Glorification

I think that during the gospel call one considers the issue at hand. Really it is more of a command to repent and trust Christ than an offer.

Good point in that the gospel or general call In my most humble opinion preceeds regeneration. Now my question would be...How does The Holy Spirit regenerate someone by using the Gospel if the "information" has to be heard before one is regenerated?

Do we really need to know the answer to this? The Lord works as He sees fit - what we DO know is that the power of regeneration is in the Gospel according to Paul's letter to the Romans, and apart from that regeneration, nobody comes forth in faith. We don't have need to know HOW God does this, only THAT He does so. Only the latter is told us in Scripture - anything beyond that is pure (and profitless) speculation.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

I believe that man being created in the image of God naturally has a desire to seek God and fill the void left in him since the fall.

This isn't consistent with either the Scriptures or the Westminster Standards (or LBCF for that matter).

Sure it is. That's why every society on earth has a religion of some sort. Most are pagan, but it is still religions worshipping. It is because man needs to worship in some way or he isn't satisfied.

---------- Post added at 02:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:04 PM ----------

Election/Predestination/Gospel Call/Effectual Call (regeneration)/Faith/Repentance/Adoption (Indwelling)/Sanctification/Glorification

I think that during the gospel call one considers the issue at hand. Really it is more of a command to repent and trust Christ than an offer.

Good point in that the gospel or general call In my most humble opinion preceeds regeneration. Now my question would be...How does The Holy Spirit regenerate someone by using the Gospel if the "information" has to be heard before one is regenerated?

Romans 10:17 ESV
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

The Holy Spirit opens their ears to hear at the word of Christ. He gives them a new heart a new nature and they are regenerated and believe and repent.

Luke 10:22 ESV
22 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

 

[Osage Bluestem]

I believe that man being created in the image of God naturally has a desire to seek God and fill the void left in him since the fall.

The Holy Ghost, Psalmist, Jesus, Paul, Westsminster Divines, Todd, and myself, et al. all disagree with you:

Psalm 14:1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

There are none that want anything to do with the TRUE God they don't seek him. They don't want him because he is good and man is depraved since the fall. But they do seek something some form of truth and they do worship. That is why you have african tribes dancing around fires singing to their ancestors and moon goddesses and such. They put a lot of time and energy into idolatry to make themselves feel better in an attempt to ease the hole in their soul. That is simple observation. There is not one single root non religious culture on earth. That is anthropology 101.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

There are none that want anything to do with the TRUE God they don't seek him.

But that's not what you said, previously. You said "naturally has a desire to seek God," not "naturally has a desire to worship something. Just keepin' ya honest and precise.

Thanks. I thought people would know what I meant because it is indeed the absence of God in a fallen soul that creates the problem he is trying to alleviate.

 

[earl40]

Election/Predestination/Gospel Call/Effectual Call (regeneration)/Faith/Repentance/Adoption (Indwelling)/Sanctification/Glorification

I think that during the gospel call one considers the issue at hand. Really it is more of a command to repent and trust Christ than an offer.

Good point in that the gospel or general call In my most humble opinion preceeds regeneration. Now my question would be...How does The Holy Spirit regenerate someone by using the Gospel if the "information" has to be heard before one is regenerated?

Do we really need to know the answer to this? The Lord works as He sees fit - what we DO know is that the power of regeneration is in the Gospel according to Paul's letter to the Romans, and apart from that regeneration, nobody comes forth in faith. We don't have need to know HOW God does this, only THAT He does so. Only the latter is told us in Scripture - anything beyond that is pure (and profitless) speculation.

Just wondering how because of our insistence that regeneration precedes faith but not temporally. I suspect The Lord may use different times to convey certain truth. Like putting the pieces of a puzzle together till Chief Piece (Jesus) is snapped in place.....In other words, we come to the knowledge of the truth before we are regenerated. Once we are exposed to this knowledge He regenerates us and we end up believing in Jesus. Just logical conclusions that are derived from scripture though no doubt there may be a hole or or two in my speculations.