Justaguy
Puritan Board Freshman
It would seem unwise.
Pumping money into the market is probably fueling additional incentives and growth.
I wouldn’t want to buy all the drugs from cartels just to ensure they stayed out of the hands of kids.
Pro-choice "Christians" ?
- Thread starter earl40
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Pumping money into the market is probably fueling additional incentives and growth.
I wouldn’t want to buy all the drugs from cartels just to ensure they stayed out of the hands of kids.
Generalizations will not do. Failing explicitly to define words thrown out as accusations is -at best- lazy, -at worst- dishonest and dishonorable toward those of whom you accuse such things. I would encourage any to spend a little more time examining the contexts of both the OT Scriptures with regard to the regulation of slavery in the OT, considering the differences the Lord puts between enslavement of brethren, vs enslavement of non-covenant people, spoils of war, etc. Also, consider the NT assumption of the right relationship between slaves and masters, their duties one to another, and this in the context of household relationships (Wives, husbands, children, slaves, masters, etc.). It is not so cut and dry as the modern era would have us believe, and the abuses of a thing lawful, even regulated, do not call for its abolition, but its reform. When the Lord has given revelation on a matter, no amount of so-called “natural law” may cast out its lawfulness. On the other side of that -to be clear- no amount of the lawfulness of a thing can excuse the misuse, abuse, or misapplication of the thing, and every man will give an account.
C. M. Sheffield
Puritan Board Graduate
Slavery and man-stealing are not the same thing. Conflating the two only shows one to be careless or worst, dishonest.
How can I get a slave then without stealing a man?
retroGRAD3
Puritan Board Senior
I believe the distinction is being made between the actual slavers (people going to territories and enslaving the person against their will) and people buying and selling slaves (those buying/selling people who are already slaves, but are not the ones going into places and enslaving them). The buying/selling part, not being "stealing", only the initial enslavement part would be. I think that is what I am gathering from this discussion so far.
Ok, thanks for the clarification. But are we allowed to buy stolen goods?
I grant that if a nation wars against us and we defeat them, in the past, we might enslave their male war captives as a punishment for a certain period of time. This happened in the past. As recent as WWII the Soviets made the German prisoners of war work hard labor for 5 or 6 years before freeing them, but their treatment seemed a very unjust evil that made me root for the Germans in WWII anytime they faced the Soviets. I wish the USSR was obliterated.
But a set period of time and then emancipation seems just. For children to be born into slavery as slaves seems a great evil, as was done in the American South.
retroGRAD3
Puritan Board Senior
If you are asking my opinion specifically, I would say no, we should try to avoid buying stolen goods. However, if we are talking about the death penalty crime of man stealing, I am not sure it falls into the same category.
C. M. Sheffield
Puritan Board Graduate
Biblically speaking, one may be subjected to slavery as a spoil of war. One may willingly enter the relation of a slave due to extreme poverty. A slave may be bought from another who lawfully owned them. And a slave may be obtained through inheritance. There are likely other ways in which a slave may be lawfully obtained but that's a few off the top of my head.
O
Ok. I am not condemning you. I am just trying to figure it out for myself. If I were a good man in the south, I might be tempted to buy slaves and treat them better than my neighbors. I know some good men did this. When the culture is 100% one way it is hard to fight it. It is easier to mitigate and lessen the effects of the sin when you are not able to eliminate the sin yourself due to a prevailing culture.
Does this still apply today? I need someone to shine my shoes.
J.L. Allen
Puritan Board Sophomore
To the OP,
There have been several here who have cited ignorance to the issues of abortion excusing (somewhat) the inconsistency they hold. That is conceivably the only plausible way. I know of a Christian man who, not long after being saved, lacked a good church context to help him discern ethical/moral issues. He was, just prior to his conversion, sexually active with women he was friends with, weening himself off of illicit drugs and drunkenness. He even lived with his girlfriend at the time. He went to a Planned Parenthood for STD testing thinking it was something similar to a city health clinic. Another aspect he was ignorant to was the nature of the Plan B/morning after pill. He didn't understand the pill until even a few years ago. Yet, the more he learned and was taught, the more he sought reform and repudiated his ignorant ways. Paul speaks of the same in Scripture.
I think ignorance was more prevalent in decades past because the technology hadn't shown us that it was a living human being from the point of conception. Then, just like now, some people are duped by "experts" telling them that it is only a clump of cells and nothing more. Some people don't wish to dig any deeper than this and just trust these "experts." It's a fact that some people are simple in this way. Many, many Christians (and pro-life pagans) immediately saw the issue long before high-definition ultrasounds and the like. Again, I just don't think we have the same threshold of ignorance anymore with the access of information so readily at our fingertips.
Perhaps an example of this is Matt Walsh's documentary "What is a Woman?" There are people left, right, and center becoming aware of the deep evils of the transgender movement (and all the associated movements with it). They are shocked they didn't see what is really quite clear.
There have been several here who have cited ignorance to the issues of abortion excusing (somewhat) the inconsistency they hold. That is conceivably the only plausible way. I know of a Christian man who, not long after being saved, lacked a good church context to help him discern ethical/moral issues. He was, just prior to his conversion, sexually active with women he was friends with, weening himself off of illicit drugs and drunkenness. He even lived with his girlfriend at the time. He went to a Planned Parenthood for STD testing thinking it was something similar to a city health clinic. Another aspect he was ignorant to was the nature of the Plan B/morning after pill. He didn't understand the pill until even a few years ago. Yet, the more he learned and was taught, the more he sought reform and repudiated his ignorant ways. Paul speaks of the same in Scripture.
I think ignorance was more prevalent in decades past because the technology hadn't shown us that it was a living human being from the point of conception. Then, just like now, some people are duped by "experts" telling them that it is only a clump of cells and nothing more. Some people don't wish to dig any deeper than this and just trust these "experts." It's a fact that some people are simple in this way. Many, many Christians (and pro-life pagans) immediately saw the issue long before high-definition ultrasounds and the like. Again, I just don't think we have the same threshold of ignorance anymore with the access of information so readily at our fingertips.
Perhaps an example of this is Matt Walsh's documentary "What is a Woman?" There are people left, right, and center becoming aware of the deep evils of the transgender movement (and all the associated movements with it). They are shocked they didn't see what is really quite clear.
C. M. Sheffield
Puritan Board Graduate
You're better off just paying someone to shine your shoes or better yet, do it yourself.
I need to get shoes, first, that can be shined. 10 dollar Wal-mart specials don't need shining.You're better off just paying someone to shine your shoes or better yet, do it yourself.
Sovereign Grace
Puritan Board Sophomore
Amen to all this!! I just don’t see how someone who is truly born of the Spirit of God would be okay with women murdering their babies.
alexanderjames
Puritan Board Sophomore
It is utterly shocking how many Christians around me seem to view abortion as an unclear issue, or are even indifferent towards it. I blame the influence of the culture in tandem with ignorance of knowing God and His word.
Surely the answer is strong preaching from the pulpit.
Before
Puritan Board Freshman
Not unlike the indifference during another Holocaust circa WWII.
Here is something to consider: There was a righteous man named Lot who had become so jaded and desensitized by the culture around him, that he did not hesitate to offer his daughters as objects of raging lust, though -in some way- he was vexed by the people's wickedness. This callousness was not sudden, but incremental, and is much how many of us have become desensitized to, for example, homosexuality, such that we can laugh at such things, or at effeminacy. But do you know one thing, most grievously, to which many many many professing Christians have become desensitized? The so-called freedom to propagate soul-murder. We've called it Freedom of Religion, but the Lord is decidedly against such bondage, being the LORD God of truth, and commanding all men everywhere to have no other god before Him. It is shocking that there are professing Christians who may countenance abortion, but it ought also to be shocking -if not more- that many of us can so easily tolerate/countenance that men may openly propagate soul-murder without fear of temporal consequence. It goes to show that being jaded is not limited to the second table. Lord help us to examine ourselves, know and understand the vileness of sin, confessing & forsaking it, removing the logs from our own eyes, such that we may exclaim with the Psalmist "Rivers of water run down mine eyes because they keep not thy law!"
Wonderkins
Puritan Board Freshman
I think Chick-fil-A does that
Berean
Puritanboard Commissioner
Their CEO Dan Cathy.
Biblically speaking under the New Covenant, we are to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Would you like to be bought by someone? Would you like not having the option offered of a decent paying job instead of slavery? Is your definition of biblical the same as Jesus Christ? Does capitulation to culture justify treating somebody differently than you would want to be treated, according to the Lord's command?
JH
Puritan Board Sophomore
That commandment was just as abiding under the Old as it was in the New, though. It pertains to the positive duty annexed to the sixth commandment.
WLC 99, P4: That as, where a duty is commanded, the contrary sin is forbidden; and where a sin is forbidden [in this case the sixth commandment], the contrary duty is commanded: [to do unto others, as you would have them do unto you.]
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Let us get back on topic as discussions concerning (American) slavery always perish in the ditches of people talking past one another.
I think that the OP is asking the wrong question. Could someone hypothetically be pro-choice while morally objecting to abortion and still be a real Christian? Perhaps they may be a real Christian. The real question, however, is should someone holding such a scandalous opinion be permitted to be a member in good standing of a Christian church. I believe that someone holding that opinion needs to be kindly admonished to give it up, censored if they do not, and excommunicated if they remain stiff-necked in obstinately maintaining it.
I think that the OP is asking the wrong question. Could someone hypothetically be pro-choice while morally objecting to abortion and still be a real Christian? Perhaps they may be a real Christian. The real question, however, is should someone holding such a scandalous opinion be permitted to be a member in good standing of a Christian church. I believe that someone holding that opinion needs to be kindly admonished to give it up, censored if they do not, and excommunicated if they remain stiff-necked in obstinately maintaining it.
C. M. Sheffield
Puritan Board Graduate
Before
Puritan Board Freshman
Perhaps we could start by asking 'what is a real Christian?'
Soul-damning error, and its propagation.
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
I agree though my elders don't at my church.
Physeter
Puritan Board Freshman
Chattel Slavery and Abortion are tied together by the same evil threads - denial of the value of a human being and racism. Margaret Sanger who founded Planned Parenthood wanted to use abortion for eugenics. In promoting birth control, she advanced a controversial "Negro Project," She even spoke to the Klu Klux Klan. She advocated for a eugenics approach to breeding the human population and to quote her - “the gradual suppression, elimination and eventual extinction, of defective stocks — those human weeds which threaten the blooming of the finest flowers of American civilization.” Her views in this regard are appalling. But this is how abortion got started.
Scottish Presbyterian
Puritan Board Sophomore
Do you mean they should have their tweeter account cancelled?
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Auto-correct does not like the terminology associated with Reformed church order. (Censured, not censored.)
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