Problems in the PCA?

[Pergamum]

In my humble opinion, there are a lot of issues that are treated within liberty of conscience in the PCA, which should be so treated, that would have binding rules one way or the other in, say, the OPC.

This is anecdotal, but one time in nominating men for office in my former OPC church, I was told by the then-pastor that he would not support candidates who smoked or were in his opinion too fat.

I'm sorry, but I couldn't find anything on things like that in the Biblical criteria for office.

Being temperate or self-controlled might be evidenced or proven as lacking by these traits.

 

[beej6]

I have to say, eating and drinking during the service would be way down on my list of things to check out, though I rarely do it myself, and none of the churches I've attended have ever had this 'problem'... so maybe I haven't seen the other side.

I recently attended a concert at a large church sanctuary, and remember being struck by seeing a coffee bar in the very large outer lobby area - which was very convenient for us on a Saturday but you just knew it would be open the next day! And irony of ironies, there was a small bookstore next door... that was only open on Sunday (!).

 

[Pergamum]

interesting point about the bookstore in the church only open on Sunday....can we start a new thread about it? I am intrigued.

 

[BJClark]

I don't know, I have been to various churches, I've not gone to one where they ate or drank during the service (unless it's communion) if they have coffee or food it's during the Sunday School time frame, and then you don't carry your cup or food to the sanctuary..

We stand for the reading of God's word, and most people don't get up, even to go to the restroom, afraid they are going to miss something.

 

[raekwon]

If the biggest problem people have with the PCA is that some folks in some churches sip their coffee or soda during church, I'll take it.

 

[Mushroom]

If the biggest problem people have with the PCA is that some folks in some churches sip their coffee or soda during church, I'll take it.

Yah, if only....

 

[etexas]

In my humble opinion, there are a lot of issues that are treated within liberty of conscience in the PCA, which should be so treated, that would have binding rules one way or the other in, say, the OPC.

This is anecdotal, but one time in nominating men for office in my former OPC church, I was told by the then-pastor that he would not support candidates who smoked or were in his opinion too fat.

I'm sorry, but I couldn't find anything on things like that in the Biblical criteria for office.

Being temperate or self-controlled might be evidenced or proven as lacking by these traits.

Perg, it could depend on other factors of course, I know an Anglican Priest who has some heart and blood pressure problems, the meds he takes made him, in his own words "Swell up." Plus he is a "big boned" fellow to start with, it makes him look a lot bigger than he really is, it would be a shame if someone at first blush looked at him an thought "what a glutton" without knowing all the factors.

 

[Pergamum]

Etexas: Yes, it is one factor among many.

 

[Zenas]

Everyone has something screwy going on with their congregation that they don't think is right.

Welcome to the Church.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

That is why Calvin said there are only 3 things you need for a true Church.

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

One problem I have heard is that at the current growth rate in the PCA, the demand for pastors outstrips the supply. Thus, new "first-time" pastors are thrust into the top leadership role in a new congregation, which seems to me a recipe for disaster. Also, I know of a few prominent PCA churches that have had a terrible time finding pastors with an iota of qualification for the job. It would be interesting to hear from Pastor Greco and others on the problem of fidning good pastors to shepherd the many new PCA congregations.

Overall, I'm a pretty loyal PCA man. I won't deny it has flaws, but by and large you can travel anywhere in the country and be pretty confident in attending a solid PCA church there. Few other congregations can make this claim...

 

[Pergamum]

And the part about "the sacraments being rightly administered..." even is not totally needed because both Baptists and Presbyterians recognize the other as being a church despite one of them not administering the sacraments properly.

 

[etexas]

That is why Calvin said there are only 3 things you need for a true Church.

Those 3 being?

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

1) Gospel is Properly Preached
2) Sacraments properly administered
3) Discipline is active and loving

 

[etexas]

One problem I have heard is that at the current growth rate in the PCA, the demand for pastors outstrips the supply. Thus, new "first-time" pastors are thrust into the top leadership role in a new congregation, which seems to me a recipe for disaster. Also, I know of a few prominent PCA churches that have had a terrible time finding pastors with an iota of qualification for the job. It would be interesting to hear from Pastor Greco and others on the problem of fidning good pastors to shepherd the many new PCA congregations.

Overall, I'm a pretty loyal PCA man. I won't deny it has flaws, but by and large you can travel anywhere in the country and be pretty confident in attending a solid PCA church there. Few other congregations can make this claim...

BIG ditto! I was trying to find a PCA for my sister, one was a little "happy-clappy" BUT about 12 minutes from that one I found a PCA that was VERY traditional and orthodox. Sometimes you just have to look. True in ANY church.

 

[etexas]

1) Gospel is Properly Preached
2) Sacraments properly administered
3) Discipline is active and loving

Nice I like that! Thank you, you see, I feel that the most orthodox Presbyterian bodies embody that, including most PCA churches.

 

[raekwon]

Ok, so on a serious note . . . one thing I've seen and heard from friends and colleagues in lots of PCA churches around the country (particularly in the South) is a tendency -- among both individuals and whole churches -- to treat the local church as if it's some "Reformed Bomb Shelter", where we can huddle up and hide (if only for an hour and a half on Sunday) from the evils of the world, the Pope, liberalism, Arminianism, and broad evangelicalism.

We need to see our churches as outposts of the Kingdom of God, loudly proclaiming freedom to the captives, even at great risk to ourselves and our comfort.

 

[etexas]

Ok, so on a serious note . . . one thing I've seen and heard from friends and colleagues in lots of PCA churches around the country (particularly in the South) is a tendency -- among both individuals and whole churches -- to treat the local church as if it's some "Reformed Bomb Shelter", where we can huddle up and hide (if only for an hour and a half on Sunday) from the evils of the world, the Pope, liberalism, Arminianism, and broad evangelicalism.

We need to see our churches as outposts of the Kingdom of God, loudly proclaiming freedom to the captives, even at great risk to ourselves and our comfort.

Rae, do you not think this can sometimes be the case with other Traditional Presbyterian Bodies? I do not not deny that this may be true in some PCA churches, but IS IT ONLY A PCA ISSUE? Million Dollar Question my friend.

 

[Reepicheep]

I don't know if it is a problem but all but one of the PCA churches in KC tend to be kind of emerging. Not the McLaren type but the Driscoll type, they are trying to be relevant in our culture. Again, I don't know if this is good or bad this seems to be the wave of the future.

Most members of these churches do not even know they are going to a Presbyterian church. They were attracted to the contemporary style worship and relaxed atmosphere.

Eating and drinking during the service, getting up during the preaching to refresh your cappuccino or get another bagel. But again this seems to be the way most churches are going.

To be fair, and being a pastor of one of the PCA churches in KC, it would be more accurate to describe the churches this way- there are currently 6 churches in the KC metro area. None are "emerging", but two practice contemporary worship (worship band, casual atmosphere for worship- as you describe), however, they both basically stick to expository preaching. I know the brothers who are pastors there, we have different convictions about worship style and format, but they're not really "emerging". Three of the churches are more traditional in worship style and very definitely actively practice the RPW. That manifests itself in a Covenant Renewal/Liturgical form in our church and the church we helped to plant, in the other church it's a simple order of worship that is followed. The one church left practices a blended style of worship, but probably tips toward traditional.

All this to say, "emerging" is probably not a good designation for any of these churches. All the pastors are committed either exclusive expository preaching, or the majority of their preaching is expository (possibly one exception to this in this group).

We have good fellowship with each others as pastors, because we are part of the same church. We love and respect each other, even with some pretty hearty debate and discussion about worship issues. I think the full breadth of the reformed tradition in the U.S. can be seen in our little group of PCA churches in KC.

 

[raekwon]

Ok, so on a serious note . . . one thing I've seen and heard from friends and colleagues in lots of PCA churches around the country (particularly in the South) is a tendency -- among both individuals and whole churches -- to treat the local church as if it's some "Reformed Bomb Shelter", where we can huddle up and hide (if only for an hour and a half on Sunday) from the evils of the world, the Pope, liberalism, Arminianism, and broad evangelicalism.

We need to see our churches as outposts of the Kingdom of God, loudly proclaiming freedom to the captives, even at great risk to ourselves and our comfort.

Rae, do you not think this can sometimes be the case with other Traditional Presbyterian Bodies? I do not not deny that this may be true in some PCA churches, but IS IT ONLY A PCA ISSUE? Million Dollar Question my friend.

Oh, I don't think for a second that this is only a problem with the PCA, only a problem in confessional Presbyterianism, or even only a problem in broader evangelicalism. By no means.

 

[etexas]

Ok, so on a serious note . . . one thing I've seen and heard from friends and colleagues in lots of PCA churches around the country (particularly in the South) is a tendency -- among both individuals and whole churches -- to treat the local church as if it's some "Reformed Bomb Shelter", where we can huddle up and hide (if only for an hour and a half on Sunday) from the evils of the world, the Pope, liberalism, Arminianism, and broad evangelicalism.

We need to see our churches as outposts of the Kingdom of God, loudly proclaiming freedom to the captives, even at great risk to ourselves and our comfort.

Rae, do you not think this can sometimes be the case with other Traditional Presbyterian Bodies? I do not not deny that this may be true in some PCA churches, but IS IT ONLY A PCA ISSUE? Million Dollar Question my friend.

Oh, I don't think for a second that this is only a problem with the PCA, only a problem in confessional Presbyterianism, or even only a problem in broader evangelicalism. By no means.

Good answer and I agree with you this is a problem that is not just limited to the reformed but spills overs into the "broadly Evangelical" church as well!

 

[fredtgreco]

One problem I have heard is that at the current growth rate in the PCA, the demand for pastors outstrips the supply. Thus, new "first-time" pastors are thrust into the top leadership role in a new congregation, which seems to me a recipe for disaster. Also, I know of a few prominent PCA churches that have had a terrible time finding pastors with an iota of qualification for the job. It would be interesting to hear from Pastor Greco and others on the problem of fidning good pastors to shepherd the many new PCA congregations.

Actually, Mason, the problem is the exact opposite. There are far more men looking for calls than churches looking for a pastor. I had heard that for every open pulpit/position in the PCA, there were something like 75 men without call. Now not all of these men are looking for a call, so even if we assume that half of them are not, that is still an astounding number.

It makes for a great deal of arrogance in churches/pulpit committees. Most 100 member PCA churches expect to get an energetic 40 year old man with 15 years experience, who is a great preacher, teaches like R.C Sproul, and counsels like a master. Oh, and his kids are perfect, his wife does tons of ministry, and they are happy to live on $40,000 a year (including housing and both halfs of social security). This type of situation makes for men who go along with all sorts of things simply to get a call.

 

[Reepicheep]

One problem I have heard is that at the current growth rate in the PCA, the demand for pastors outstrips the supply. Thus, new "first-time" pastors are thrust into the top leadership role in a new congregation, which seems to me a recipe for disaster. Also, I know of a few prominent PCA churches that have had a terrible time finding pastors with an iota of qualification for the job. It would be interesting to hear from Pastor Greco and others on the problem of fidning good pastors to shepherd the many new PCA congregations.

Actually, Mason, the problem is the exact opposite. There are far more men looking for calls than churches looking for a pastor. I had heard that for every open pulpit/position in the PCA, there were something like 75 men without call. Now not all of these men are looking for a call, so even if we assume that half of them are not, that is still an astounding number.

It makes for a great deal of arrogance in churches/pulpit committees. Most 100 member PCA churches expect to get an energetic 40 year old man with 15 years experience, who is a great preacher, teaches like R.C Sproul, and counsels like a master. Oh, and his kids are perfect, his wife does tons of ministry, and they are happy to live on $40,000 a year (including housing and both halfs of social security). This type of situation makes for men who go along with all sorts of things simply to get a call.

 

[Archlute]

I've also been surprised to see how many of these smaller congregations state that their minister should have a PhD. I think that their thoughts of what a ministry should consist (especially in a small and/or rural body) are not very realistic.

Another problem which I have seen coming from congregations which are supposedly governed by confessional Reformed standards is that of requiring the holding of extra-confessional theological positions before they will consider receiving a man as their pastor - he must be post-mil, or non-theonomic, or a classical apologist, or a presup apologist, etc. These bodies really need to begin developing a healthy understanding that this man is a minister of Christ; a minister of the Word and sacraments, and not their "preacher boy" who will run like a pet when called to fulfill their every ministry ambition.

 

[DMcFadden]

Fred,

I'm sorry to hear about the situation in the PCA vis a vis placement. Having lived through the failure of the broad evangelical movement, I have high hopes for my Presbyterian brethren, sometimes too high! Rae nailed it with his line about a Reformed Bomb Shelter! I will confess to investing you all with more hope than would be reasonable at times and viewing your congregations as "Reformed Bomb Shelters" from the collateral damage of broad evangelicalism's explosion (or, rather, mixing my metaphors, implosion).

Still, Presbyterians and confessional Baptists should look at the spectacular failure of contemporary evangelicalism and learn the lessons before it is too late. Fundamentalism in the early 20th century thought that opposing liberalism was a strong enough identity and raison d'etre. In their assiduous efforts to guard against liberalism, they ended up embracing, willy nilly, a legalism so toxic that it was certifiably Galatian. And, their solution to the corrosive acid of modernist critical methodologies was to find safety in an even more modern and novel hermeneutic, dispensationalism.

Carl F.H. Henry envisioned his idea of a broad evangelical movement to redress these errors. He thought that one could simply hold to orthodox beliefs and "engage" the liberal world "critically." Fuller Seminary was the ideal laboratory for Henry's model. Not only was he a founding professor, but his vision was the intellectual container in which broad evangelicalism emerged.

Within little more than two decades (i.e., shortly before my own matriculation there), the evidence that the experiment had gone wildly wrong was manifest. The more orthodox professors fled the place as others came who completed the transformation. I'm not sure whether Fuller was a prime example, leading indicator, or causative factor in the disintegration of evangelicalism.

However, having lived through an evangelical Christian college (where my own pastor's daughter later "lost faith" at the hands of the man who officiated at my wedding 34 years ago yesterday!), Fuller (where just about any sub-species of nutty heterodoxy is countenanced as fair game today), and a separation from a mainline denomination (where gays are married, ordained, and active and the Bible is twisted like a wax nose to justify this and so much more), this stuff is more than a little existential for me.

Confessional subscription is not a panacea any more than Presbyterianism qua Presbyterianism can be. However, my prayer for you PCA guys is that you will not spend so much time aping the evangelical movement that you hitch a ride on their handbasket to hell.