Purpose Driven as Bible 101?

[Robin]

Saddleback had a link to a local cafe promoting the PD book. It appears that admiration for this volume has replaced the Bible.

http://www.saddlebackfamily.com/home/todaystory.asp?id=8407

 

[Herald]

Robin - please don't take this personally...it is not directed at you. I wonder how all these posts re: Saddleback are news? Do we expect anything else from this church? I'm concerned that all this reporting on the happenings at Saddleback my tempt some Reformed or Reformed leaning Christians towards glee. May that never happen.

 

[kvanlaan]

Is it news? No, you're right, it's not. BUT I don't think we're just spinning our wheels in talking about it.

When we see this sort of behaviour masquerading as Biblical Christianity, we should be pointing it out. I remember hearing an alleged Calvinist talking about how "we already know what we shouldn't do" and thus we don't need to talk about sin. Well, we do need to talk about it, especially when it is infecting the church under the guise of "outreach" and being "seeker-sensitive".

That being said Bill, you're right. We shouldn't be surprised/etc. about anything that we see from this bunch. I do think though, that these sorts of reports have value in that they will show Saddleback's 'Osteen-ness' for what it is.

 

[Larry Hughes]

No it certainly is not wrong, especially when so many STILL think its all 'not so bad'. There's no "glee" in this, tragedy yes, glee, no.

And yes I do pray for those creating and under deception, I just don't brag about it publically, this is the first and last time I will mention it.

The thing that most shocked me coming from rank atheism to christianity was not the number of unbelievers "out there" like I was, but the covering up of the Cross in SO many subtle ways IN the church (broad sense of the word church). The second thing that most shocked me was on one hand everyone saying, "proclaim the Gospel", but then when you do "bammo" in the back as RC Sproul once put it. Just don't REALLY proclaim it. Evangelism is good and fine as long as one doesn't proclaim the Cross.

 

[Robin]

On December 8th a memo went out from Saddleback: "May I help You & Your Church this Christsmas Season?" from Rick.

This promo piece, aimed at recruiting other churches to cooperate with RW's event on Fox, promised to refer inquiries resulting from the broadcast, to those churches interested in PD (in Saddleback's database.) The letter pitched registration at the Saddleback "Church Finder." The tactic was to increase more subscriptions to the PD franchise via the media event.
Here is the Alumni Church Finder for all churches subscribed to PD. Reformed is #6. Amongst the denoms are: Catholic, Episcopal, Lutheran, Methodist, Reformed, Congregational, Weslayan, Presbyterian...

http://www.purposedriven.com/en-US/SearchResults.htm?term=Alumni+Churches&category=Campaigns

This search-engine sorts all PD trained churches by either name, location or zip. Give it a try.

 

[Robin]

Robin - please don't take this personally...it is not directed at you. I wonder how all these posts re: Saddleback are news? Do we expect anything else from this church? I'm concerned that all this reporting on the happenings at Saddleback my tempt some Reformed or Reformed leaning Christians towards glee. May that never happen.

"Glee?" The Reformed are not immune to this movement.

Can you spell: "a - s - s - i - m - i - l - a - t - i - o - n" ???

Never underestimate the power of ROME, Bill!

 

[Herald]

Is it news? No, you're right, it's not. BUT I don't think we're just spinning our wheels in talking about it.

When we see this sort of behaviour masquerading as Biblical Christianity, we should be pointing it out. I remember hearing an alleged Calvinist talking about how "we already know what we shouldn't do" and thus we don't need to talk about sin. Well, we do need to talk about it, especially when it is infecting the church under the guise of "outreach" and being "seeker-sensitive".

That being said Bill, you're right. We shouldn't be surprised/etc. about anything that we see from this bunch. I do think though, that these sorts of reports have value in that they will show Saddleback's 'Osteen-ness' for what it is.

Kevin - I agree with you. We should point out what is wrong within the church. Since Rick Warren's church is of national interest it deserves to be exposed. My counsel is that God's people do not take a perverse joy in pointing these things out. It is easy to do. I pray that the Lord calls out those who are His and brings them to a better knowledge of the truth.

 

[Herald]

"Glee?" The Reformed are not immune to this movement.

Can you spell: "a - s - s - i - m - i - l - a - t - i - o - n" ???

Never underestimate the power of ROME, Bill!

Robin - I knew that I ran the risk of being misunderstood. I am not saying we should tolerate false teaching in any shape, manner or form. It needs to be exposed. But let us be found exposing the falsehood for the sake of Christ. There are probably true saints within Warren's church that have yet to come to a better understanding of the truth. Many on the PB were once there, steeped in Arminianism (or worse).

What bothers me most about the Saddleback effect is how many churches are sucked in to all or part of Warren's pervasive methodology and watered down theology. It is the 1960's counter-culture replicating itself in the present day church. I didn't mean to squash exposure of Warren's falsehood, rather I want to focus exactly on that falsehood and not the symptoms.

 

[kvanlaan]

Bill, that's the danger, isn't it. And the danger is so very real.

I do look for these things on the 'net (the publicity-seeking 'church') and there is always the danger of falling into a smug "whew, thankfully I no longer share ranks with these heathen" attitude. And yet I think the effort is indeed required, so long as it does not become tainted with the perverse joy you speak of. Believe me, at this point, there is no pride/self-aggrandizing joy (and I pray there never will be) because self-examination against Scripture always leaves me where it should - wretched and bowed.

And yes, let's root out the source, and not focus on the symptoms. They are simply markers of the rot, and clipping leaves off the tree will never fell it.

Do you think anyone has ever tried to confront Rick Warren about the path his church is taking?

 

[Herald]

Do you think anyone has ever tried to confront Rick Warren about the path his church is taking?

Kevin - I have to believe so. But we need to remember that Warren does not frequent Reformed or even more conservative Arminian circles (Chuck Swindoll, David Jeremiah, Charles Stanley etc.). I believe he views himself as a revolutionary. My previous comment about a Christian counter-culture may not be too far off the mark. In his mind I believe that Warren does want people to come to faith in Jesus Christ. The questions to ask are:

1. Even in his Arminian theology would he mean the same thing as the aforementioned theologians/pastors (Swindoll, Jeremiah, Stanley)?
2. Would he claim willfull ignorance of soteriology similar to what Joel Osteen did on the Larry King show?

Even though the "Purpose Driven Life" gives lipservice to becoming a Christian by faith it is easily dismissed in order to get to the "good stuff" in the book. The philosophy that drives the "PDL" is insidious. The conservative American church would never embrace the prosperity gospel. Even Dave Hunt would rail against it. But at its core isn't that the message of the "PDL"? While "Your Best Life Now" by Osteen is rightfully rejected by conservative Christianity, "The Purpose Driven Life" is swallowed whole. Combined with the seeker sensitive movement as its base the "PDL" is another step in incrementalism. It serves to dumb down the church to the meat of God's word. Theology is no longer necessary. All that is needed is a devotional knowledge of spiritual truth. Rock stars are the new heroes. While God maintains a faithul remnant of churches that teach the truth, the American church is headed towards a critical mass that will have tremendous reverberations. This is not necessarily bad. I honestly believe the Lord may use this coming spiritual crisis to bring many to a knowledge of the truth. It could created a hunger for the truth of God's word. Only God knows, but this is my hope.