bookslover
Puritan Board Doctor
Rick Warren told his congregation (via the website) today (Wednesday, 12/30) that Saddleback Church needs $900,000 - by Friday(!) - so it can stay in the black. Good thing he didn't wait until the last minute...
The "Purpose-Driven" Ministry Now Has a Purpose!
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Scottish Lass
Puritan Board Doctor
While I understand the desire to reach out to folks looking for tax deductions at the end of the year, it does seem a little last-minute. Churches, non-profits, etc. all will have to adjust their budgets just like their participating families have.
Rich Koster
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Maybe Rick can get some Beg-a-thon airtime on TBN. Why not take it to the pro's??????
DMcFadden
Puritanboard Commissioner
End of year shortages for churches and other 501(c)3 organizations are not uncommon, especially in the second year of a recession. Historically, churches tend to fare better in the first year of a recession and eat it in the second. Especially in a high income area like Warren's, we can expect unemployment of middle management and tech types higher and bonuses for high earners to be smaller than past years. The special year end offering was reportedly 50% of last year's. With his budget scale, $900k sounds about right.
Edward
Puritanboard Commissioner
One of the reasons our church went to a fiscal year budget from a calendar year budget. If you come up short in December, you have 6 months to adjust.
Shouldn't be much of a problem for Rick. He just needs to dig through those couch cushions...
Kim G
Puritan Board Junior
Rather than make fun of this problem, shouldn't we pray for this ministry? Regardless of problems at the ministry, does he not preach Christ? The Bible says we ought not even wish our ENEMIES to fail, much less those who profess and proclaim Christ.
On a similar note, here is an article that I read earlier this year about Rick Warren's ministry from a reformed perspective: On Visiting Saddleback Church :: christian living, personal :: A Reformed, Christian Blog
On a similar note, here is an article that I read earlier this year about Rick Warren's ministry from a reformed perspective: On Visiting Saddleback Church :: christian living, personal :: A Reformed, Christian Blog
Kim,
I hear you, I really do. But respectfully, whosoever has come to Christ through Warren's ministry has done so in spite of his teaching, not because of it. I agree that we should pray for the ministry, but spiritually so--not financially. There is tremendous reform needed at Saddleback.
I hear you, I really do. But respectfully, whosoever has come to Christ through Warren's ministry has done so in spite of his teaching, not because of it. I agree that we should pray for the ministry, but spiritually so--not financially. There is tremendous reform needed at Saddleback.
N. Eshelman
Puritan Board Senior
Mark Driscoll's financial message on the Mars sight said they needed 3 million for this that and the other thing... I don't think that he said 'to stay in the black'; but more expanding the Mars empire.
I don't see a problem with this either. People need to know where there churches are financially. We are running less than a $10,000 deficit- with about 70 members. Imagine what a 2000+ member congregation would be running. Hey, these are tough times for all 'non-profits' including the bride of Christ.
BTW, our church is a bit in the red this year (one of a VERY few times in 106 years)... send money.... we could use $900,000 as well!
I don't see a problem with this either. People need to know where there churches are financially. We are running less than a $10,000 deficit- with about 70 members. Imagine what a 2000+ member congregation would be running. Hey, these are tough times for all 'non-profits' including the bride of Christ.
BTW, our church is a bit in the red this year (one of a VERY few times in 106 years)... send money.... we could use $900,000 as well!
Notthemama1984
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I think most churches and ministries are in the red. I know we are 50 grand in the red for our budget.
I do not really know the theology of Rick Warren so I won't comment on it. I will say this though, I read his Purpose Driven Church when I was a young music minister at our church. I thought his stuff was earth shattering. I proceeded to blow nearly 6 grand in marketing techniques that did not bring a single new member into our church.
I do not really know the theology of Rick Warren so I won't comment on it. I will say this though, I read his Purpose Driven Church when I was a young music minister at our church. I thought his stuff was earth shattering. I proceeded to blow nearly 6 grand in marketing techniques that did not bring a single new member into our church.
One more note before I bow out of this one. Churches like Saddleback require a lot of money for a lot of nonsense. Case in point: Saddleback Hula Ministry: 10,000 hula dancers worshipping our Lord Jesus Christ.
How much do you think this program costs? We've got people starving for the gospel, both in the darkest corners of the earth and in our own backyards, and there is nothing better to spend money on than hula? Raising $900,000 looks like a waste waiting to happen.
How much do you think this program costs? We've got people starving for the gospel, both in the darkest corners of the earth and in our own backyards, and there is nothing better to spend money on than hula? Raising $900,000 looks like a waste waiting to happen.
I looked at that link. Posted a quote. Bold is mine.
Mind boggling.
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There is a place for you
No previous hula or dance experience required to join this class, all you need is the love for Jesus Christ and an appreciation for hula. Fellowship with us and learn how to worship God through the art of hula.
"Worship the Lord in the splendor of His holiness."
Psalm 29:2
Our wahines (Women); the women are very important part of the body of Christ and their family.
God tells us in His word, men were made to worship Him and commanded to bring the gospel to the ends of the earth. We are to do this in the midst of a spiritual war. So, it is through hula we have chosen to train warriors to worship, minister, and fellowship in order to continue to fight and win this war.
It is only together we can win, we were never meant to do this alone. So come on and join us.
“…God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.” Psalm 73:26
Our teens and keikis are taught discipline and respect for their elders as well as for each other. They are taught that worship must come first in everything that they do. God gives us so much and in return we must offer Him our all. Their love for Jesus shows in the way these young ladies worship Him through hula.
Mind boggling.
***************************
There is a place for you
No previous hula or dance experience required to join this class, all you need is the love for Jesus Christ and an appreciation for hula. Fellowship with us and learn how to worship God through the art of hula.
"Worship the Lord in the splendor of His holiness."
Psalm 29:2
Our wahines (Women); the women are very important part of the body of Christ and their family.
God tells us in His word, men were made to worship Him and commanded to bring the gospel to the ends of the earth. We are to do this in the midst of a spiritual war. So, it is through hula we have chosen to train warriors to worship, minister, and fellowship in order to continue to fight and win this war.
It is only together we can win, we were never meant to do this alone. So come on and join us.
“…God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.” Psalm 73:26
Our teens and keikis are taught discipline and respect for their elders as well as for each other. They are taught that worship must come first in everything that they do. God gives us so much and in return we must offer Him our all. Their love for Jesus shows in the way these young ladies worship Him through hula.
Kim,
It's difficult for me to pray specifically for Saddleback or the Purpose Driven lifestyle and theology. I have material differences with Rick Warren's theology and approach to ministry. What I do pray for is that the gospel will go forth, regardless of who proclaims it. It's not that I am wishing Warren, his church, or ministry to fail; rather I want the gospel to succeed. The Apostle Paul wrote:
jrdnoland
Puritan Board Freshman
Paul also said Romans 17 Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.
How much has to be wrong before you turn away?
The gift of hula is full body worship, as well as a soul and mind discipline. We dance for an audience of ONE. Our ministry uses hula as a tool to minister to others and not for entertainment. Through the gift of worship hula, we are able to reach on more for Jesus. We give all honor and glory to our heavenly Father.[/QUOTE]
Please correct me if I'm wrong about this, but I seem to remember reading that hula developed as worship of Hawaiian gods. If this is the case, why in the world would it be acceptable to translate this practice into Christian churches (apart from an obvious disregard for the RPW)???
Please correct me if I'm wrong about this, but I seem to remember reading that hula developed as worship of Hawaiian gods. If this is the case, why in the world would it be acceptable to translate this practice into Christian churches (apart from an obvious disregard for the RPW)???
Kim G
Puritan Board Junior
Just to be clear, I am not advocating embracing Saddleback's theology or ignoring their problems. And there is nothing wrong with discussing errors so that we can learn and avoid the same problems. I just felt that this thread was going in a mocking direction. Like, "hee hee, look at that dumb church that can't get enough money. They need to start begging on TBN, those con-men!" In reality, this is a problem that many churches are facing in these tough times, and it's not fair to single Saddleback out because they are having trouble with their budget.
I apologize if I misread anyone's intentions.
I apologize if I misread anyone's intentions.
KPfaREAL
Puritan Board Freshman
kvanlaan
Puritan Board Doctor
I wonder if there will be a point where Rick Warren will have a Hybels-esque epiphany and have a press conference revealing "hey, we've spent millions on programs that haven't worked - people are really just hungry for the gospel!" Goodbye hula, goodbye choreographed 'worship' teams, goodbye innumerable programs. Result: budget shrinks by 47%. It could happen.
Ivan
Pastor
To put this into perspecitve, this would finance the ministry of Maranatha Baptist Church for well over sixty years at our present level of ministry.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
for us as well Rev. SchoenI have issues with the Saddleback ministry in general as well, but wanted to comment on the hula.
I attended a church in Maui (where I met my husband) that had a hula ministry as well. One of the local Christian women taught it to the children and women. It was not part of the worship service but more like an extracurricular activity. I attended the hula classes for several months, practicing "Shout to the Lord". The ladies and kids eventually danced it (and Jesus loves me) at our wedding. I found personally that using my body to act out a worship song to be very..hmn. words to describe are hard. "Centering" as in using my whole body helped me focus, center, on God and who He is, whereas just singing only used my mind. I think this is why some advocate praying on their knees. I know that hula's origins are pagan but I also think it can be used as a form of dance to worship God, as can any pagan thing (can we say "Saturnalia"??). I don't think it has a regular place in corporate worship but I also think drums don't need to be a regular in corporate worship (although definitely nice at times). So there's my two cents.
Katherine
I attended a church in Maui (where I met my husband) that had a hula ministry as well. One of the local Christian women taught it to the children and women. It was not part of the worship service but more like an extracurricular activity. I attended the hula classes for several months, practicing "Shout to the Lord". The ladies and kids eventually danced it (and Jesus loves me) at our wedding. I found personally that using my body to act out a worship song to be very..hmn. words to describe are hard. "Centering" as in using my whole body helped me focus, center, on God and who He is, whereas just singing only used my mind. I think this is why some advocate praying on their knees. I know that hula's origins are pagan but I also think it can be used as a form of dance to worship God, as can any pagan thing (can we say "Saturnalia"??). I don't think it has a regular place in corporate worship but I also think drums don't need to be a regular in corporate worship (although definitely nice at times). So there's my two cents.
Katherine
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