Reformed persons going Eastern Orthodox

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When my daughter was a senior in high school, one of her teachers was helping her with an independent project. At some point religion came up and the teacher said he was EO. It seemed to my daughter that he didn't grow up in it but she didn't get around to asking him. She asked him why he was EO and he gave the usual "because-it's-not-made-up-out-of-thin-air-like-Protestant-churches" but also added that he thinks Rome is corrupt. And Apostolic Succession. To which my daughter confounded him by saying, "Well, I'm Protestant and believe in apostolic succession - my minister and elders could trace their ordination back to the Apostles." She said he looked kinda stunned by that. I've found it important to share that with my Roman friends (I don't know any EO folk) - we don't agree with the cult of Apostolic Succession but we do have apostolic succession. I think this issue of authority is a large driver of people to Rome/EO (again, I only know of converts to Rome but I suspect there is a similarity) - the wishy-washiness and constant defection of the majority of Protestantism on theological issues (manifesting in cultural ones) does not attract people looking for truth amidst the relativistic nature of the age we live in. And I can't discount the effect of the sensual feeling when in a majestic building - I have felt it myself worshipping in Reformed congregations that took over one of these buildings during the Reformation, I don't know how any Reformed person could transition to a church with icons
 
When my daughter was a senior in high school, one of her teachers was helping her with an independent project. At some point religion came up and the teacher said he was EO. It seemed to my daughter that he didn't grow up in it but she didn't get around to asking him. She asked him why he was EO and he gave the usual "because-it's-not-made-up-out-of-thin-air-like-Protestant-churches" but also added that he thinks Rome is corrupt. And Apostolic Succession. To which my daughter confounded him by saying, "Well, I'm Protestant and believe in apostolic succession - my minister and elders could trace their ordination back to the Apostles." She said he looked kinda stunned by that. I've found it important to share that with my Roman friends (I don't know any EO folk) - we don't agree with the cult of Apostolic Succession but we do have apostolic succession. I think this issue of authority is a large driver of people to Rome/EO (again, I only know of converts to Rome but I suspect there is a similarity) - the wishy-washiness and constant defection of the majority of Protestantism on theological issues (manifesting in cultural ones) does not attract people looking for truth amidst the relativistic nature of the age we live in. And I can't discount the effect of the sensual feeling when in a majestic building - I have felt it myself worshipping in Reformed congregations that took over one of these buildings during the Reformation, I don't know how any Reformed person could transition to a church with icons

9/10 times when you call their bluff on the main talking points, they have nothing else to say. (I suppose that is true of talking about politics or theology in general with the average guy on the street. See if you can get the person to move past cliches.)

And Protestant buildings don't have to be ugly. Some can have a simple grandeur, untainted by fluorescent lights. (Sorry, bad experiences on my part).
 
There was a time when I briefly thought of becoming EO. It had nothing to do with theology, and everything to do with worship. Much of modern Protestant worship leaves me cold. I have been to Reformed churches where the teaching was sound, if a little basic. But the music drove me crazy. Praise and worship music makes me want to gnaw my leg off. I have had to literally walk out of the service until the music was over. I sometimes wonder if someone slipped in a song by Led Zeppelin would anyone notice? So much of modern worship seems so shallow and even irreverent. What I want is worship that is reverent and deep. Anyway, God slammed the door on that, and I am fully commited to Presbyterianism.
 
Some folks might just assume Stairway to Heaven was the latest from Hillsong.
Nah... Hillsong isn't that talented.
I sometimes wonder if someone slipped in a song by Led Zeppelin would anyone notice?
Musically speaking, it would be a massive step up in the quality of song writing.



Contemporary Christian music (if you want to call it that) is a poorly written knockoff of already pitiful secular music.
 
I think this is often a pattern when people depart, no matter where they are departing to. It could reflect a lack of depth in relationships, or a lack of confidence in the people they know to engage with questions fully; but it can also indicate that they are not willing to be challenged on their ideas. In other words, their choice has been made before their reasons have been articulated.
It also betrays the hyper individualism of modern American Christianity that sadly exists even within our reformed churches.
 
I sometimes wonder if someone slipped in a song by Led Zeppelin would anyone notice?
In the Netherlands there have been “church services” in which not even a single psalm or hymn is sung, but only secular songs. So although I don’t know who Led Zeppelin is, his or her songs could be sung in such a service. Yet I would rather become a ‘thuislezer’ than attend either an EO service or such an abomination.

(A thuislezer - lit. home reader - is someone who reads a sermon at home on the Lord’s day instead of going to church; in the Netherlands this is often associated with the followers of Rev. Paauwe (1872-1956). I don’t know the English translation for this phenomenon.)
 
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"Well, I'm Protestant and believe in apostolic succession - my minister and elders could trace their ordination back to the Apostles."
Apostolic succession does not mean quite the same thing in Rome and EO, but it does mean for both that the current church is the true successor to the apostles, both as to ordinary and extraordinary offices. The apostles had no extraordinary successors, however, only those in the ordinary offices (as seen in Paul's epistles) of episkopoi, presbuteroi, and diakonoi. Rome thinks that the magisterium particularly and the priesthood generally embody this succession.

The doctrine means then that an unbroken succession can be traced back, on the RCC side, to Peter. No priest in secular order (and certainly not in regular orders) can actually trace back such an unbroken succession. We simply do not have the records to do so. No Protestants can either, of course. In my own case, I had hands laid on me by, among others, Ferguson, Gaffin, and Frame, who I know had hands laid on them that go back to Machen, who had hands laid on him by Warfield, then back through American Presbyterian History and that of the Church of Scotland beforehand.

But none of that is the point. We are the true and proper ordinary spiritual successors of the apostles because we have their doctrine (one of the four attributes of the church, of course, is apostolicity). The business about tracing back has some truth in it as I just noted above--many of us can quickly trace our ordinations back through the laying on of hands--but is not something that we wish to claim since, in fact, neither the RCC nor the EO can establish such in terms of actual historical lineage going back to Christ and his apostles. No church can properly claim this "unbroken lineage" as some establishable historical fact.

Peace,
Alan
 
Apostolic succession does not mean quite the same thing in Rome and EO, but it does mean for both that the current church is the true successor to the apostles, both as to ordinary and extraordinary offices. The apostles had no extraordinary successors, however, only those in the ordinary offices (as seen in Paul's epistles) of episkopoi, presbuteroi, and diakonoi. Rome thinks that the magisterium particularly and the priesthood generally embody this succession.

The doctrine means then that an unbroken succession can be traced back, on the RCC side, to Peter. No priest in secular order (and certainly not in regular orders) can actually trace back such an unbroken succession. We simply do not have the records to do so. No Protestants can either, of course. In my own case, I had hands laid on me by, among others, Ferguson, Gaffin, and Frame, who I know had hands laid on them that go back to Machen, who had hands laid on him by Warfield, then back through American Presbyterian History and that of the Church of Scotland beforehand.

But none of that is the point. We are the true and proper ordinary spiritual successors of the apostles because we have their doctrine (one of the four attributes of the church, of course, is apostolicity). The business about tracing back has some truth in it as I just noted above--many of us can quickly trace our ordinations back through the laying on of hands--but is not something that we wish to claim since, in fact, neither the RCC nor the EO can establish such in terms of actual historical lineage going back to Christ and his apostles. No church can properly claim this "unbroken lineage" as some establishable historical fact.

Peace,
Alan
Your point echoes Calvin's as Rome puffed out its chest and asked for proof of Apostolicity.

I think there is some importance to the idea that Luther and Calvin were part of the Church catholic when they were Reforming it and didn't simply anoint themselves in a river and declare themselves Apostles.

Many posts have alluded to modern culture. Carl Trueman calls our modern times plastic and notes how pre-modern times had a sense of permanence and fixedness. Life was hard, but one thing pre-modern people didn't struggle with was the question of having to figure out their place in the world. A young boy, growing up in the home of a mason, would be a mason and he might work on a cathedral that his grandfather started and die before its completion.

I have a pretty nice house and even built a steel construction barn, but I don't think it will be standing in 200 years.

I think the idea of an EO Church that feels untouched by modernity is appealing. It's appealing in the way that you go to a place in Europe or Asia and are in a structure that is over 1000 years old.

I grew up Roman Catholic and realize that claims for that communion to have an unbroken "feel" were challenged with Vatican II and shattered with the current Pope.

It's almost better, for some, that they can't even understand what is being said or done because they are participating in (notionally) something unbroken. It's the reason why some Roman Catholics go back to the Latin Mass. They can just pray the Rosary, as generations before, and look up when the bells are rung to see the Priest raise the host at the proper time.

With all of that, however, it's not the permanence of the building or a grandiose, permanent architecture that Reformed worshipers are seeking with respect to permanence. It's not even a certain formula or fixed liturgy. I'll add, as an aside, that even Anglican Churches in England were very modest until less than 200 years ago so it's not even "historically" Anglicn for them to expect extravagance.

The point I make to the Missional/Culturalist wing of my denomination is that I hope that my children's children will be confessing the same Christian truths I am. Even the most ancient buildings change and liturgies may vary, but is Christ and Him crucified, risen, and ascended (and all the evangelical graces) enlivening the hearts and minds of the Church? This is what animates me. I appreciate history and even buildings built to last, but that which I seek to preserve has greater permanence. It goes back to a Promise, made in a garden, before any stone buildings existed.
 
I think Rich touched a little on this earlier. In the past few years, some have been attracted to EO, and the Russian variety in particular, because they see that as the “based” option. You know, the idea that Russian Orthodoxy is the one church that is standing up against “globohomo” or whatever, the one church standing against one pride parade around the world. There have been handwringing articles in the mainstream media about “white nationalists” of Anglo or some other non-Eastern background coming into Russian churches (which are usually small) and taking over.

There have been a few former PuritanBoard members who have gone EO. One notable case was a man who was a member for a brief while. He got into Federal Visionism, then some sort of charismaticism. Finally, he went EO, became a “priest,” and moved to Russia.
 
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Exactly.

Church buildings may fall into ruin and gold-dripping robes deteriorate "but the word of our God will stand forever".
When it comes to buildings, EO congregations in the USA, especially outside of large cities with large immigrant populations, often rent space. I don’t know if the term “strip mall” means anything to you, but that’s the kind of place where a lot of new congregations meet. The main exception I can think of in my part of the country is the Greeks, but the kind of people we have in mind aren’t typically going to be drawn to them since they tend to be more of an ethnic social club and typically are not any more interested in culture war than the average Catholic is, and maybe even less interested.
 
Apostolic succession does not mean quite the same thing in Rome and EO, but it does mean for both that the current church is the true successor to the apostles, both as to ordinary and extraordinary offices. The apostles had no extraordinary successors, however, only those in the ordinary offices (as seen in Paul's epistles) of episkopoi, presbuteroi, and diakonoi. Rome thinks that the magisterium particularly and the priesthood generally embody this succession.

The doctrine means then that an unbroken succession can be traced back, on the RCC side, to Peter. No priest in secular order (and certainly not in regular orders) can actually trace back such an unbroken succession. We simply do not have the records to do so. No Protestants can either, of course. In my own case, I had hands laid on me by, among others, Ferguson, Gaffin, and Frame, who I know had hands laid on them that go back to Machen, who had hands laid on him by Warfield, then back through American Presbyterian History and that of the Church of Scotland beforehand.

But none of that is the point. We are the true and proper ordinary spiritual successors of the apostles because we have their doctrine (one of the four attributes of the church, of course, is apostolicity). The business about tracing back has some truth in it as I just noted above--many of us can quickly trace our ordinations back through the laying on of hands--but is not something that we wish to claim since, in fact, neither the RCC nor the EO can establish such in terms of actual historical lineage going back to Christ and his apostles. No church can properly claim this "unbroken lineage" as some establishable historical fact.

Peace,
Alan
In an interesting historical note, Presbyterian ministers almost certainly do not have an unbroken chain of laying on of hands going back to the Apostles, because the first book of discipline of the Church of Scotland abolished the ceremony, with these words:
"Other ceremony than the public approbation of the people, and declaration of the chief minister, that the person there presented is appointed to serve the Church, we cannot approve, for albeit the Apostles used imposition of hands, yet seeing the miracle is ceased, the using of the ceremony we judge not necessary."
 
Is their doctrine of apostolic succession not such that it requires each ordination to have been carried out by a "proper" Bishop all the way back to the apostles?
 
When it comes to buildings, EO congregations in the USA, especially outside of large cities with large immigrant populations, often rent space. I don’t know if the term “strip mall” means anything to you, but that’s the kind of place where a lot of new congregations meet. The main exception I can think of in my part of the country is the Greeks, but the kind of people we have in mind aren’t typically going to be drawn to them since they tend to be more of an ethnic social club and typically are not any more interested in culture war than the average Catholic is, and maybe even less interested.
A Russian family moved into our county years ago and built their own mini RO sobor. It was an instant oddity but has since fallen into disrepair. As far as I know they did not get any converts... The last I heard, after the property changed hands it was used as a hunting camp. Someone recently took pics
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In an interesting historical note, Presbyterian ministers almost certainly do not have an unbroken chain of laying on of hands going back to the Apostles, because the first book of discipline of the Church of Scotland abolished the ceremony, with these words:
"Other ceremony than the public approbation of the people, and declaration of the chief minister, that the person there presented is appointed to serve the Church, we cannot approve, for albeit the Apostles used imposition of hands, yet seeing the miracle is ceased, the using of the ceremony we judge not necessary."
Well, now I'm thinking of switching to EO!
 
Does anyone here know when, historically, we begin to see claims of an unwritten apostolic tradition handed down from the Apostles?
 
Very, very early. There are quotes from the Apostles in the Apostolic Fathers that are not contained in the canonical Scriptures.

Are these simply quotes, or are they given the weight later accorded to tradition?

It's one thing to have historical material about the apostles not found in Scripture. It's another thing to accord to that material a weight equal with Scripture.

And, the idea of tradition doesn't need written evidence. Unless I'm mistaken, Rome has no written basis, no historical record of the apostles talking about the Assumption of Mary, yet that doesn't stop them from arguing that it has been at least implicit in, or consistent with, the Apostolic Tradition of the last 1900 years.

"It's there because we said it is." With doctrine like that, who needs facts?
 
Are these simply quotes, or are they given the weight later accorded to tradition?
Mainly quotes. About the closest one gets to "later tradition" in the East, at least with the earlier Fathers, is Basil's claim in On the Holy Spirit against Eunomius. He says that Eunomious is wrong because the church always worshiped the Holy Spirit, as evidenced by the unwritten tradition. And he notes many more unwritten traditions. He does not tell us what they are, though.
 
Are these simply quotes, or are they given the weight later accorded to tradition?

It's one thing to have historical material about the apostles not found in Scripture. It's another thing to accord to that material a weight equal with Scripture.

And, the idea of tradition doesn't need written evidence. Unless I'm mistaken, Rome has no written basis, no historical record of the apostles talking about the Assumption of Mary, yet that doesn't stop them from arguing that it has been at least implicit in, or consistent with, the Apostolic Tradition of the last 1900 years.

"It's there because we said it is." With doctrine like that, who needs facts?
My purpose is to pinpoint when the claims and use of unwritten tradition began to be made. I doubt the evidence is going to convince staunch EO people, but it is just another peg in the argument I’m developing in the hopes that friends considering EO might be persuaded.
 
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