reformed rap?

[Roldan]

So, would it be true to say that there is no beat, tempo, syncopation, music style, or lyric style that is ungodly in and of itself?

True. Just because Satan takes God's gift of music and the arts and distorts it and uses it to decieve doesn't logically follow that any type of music is inherently evil or ungodly.

 

[Sonoftheday]

I was not even aware there was such a thing as reformed rap. I do not listen to music very often, but whenever I do I listen to all types of music so long as they are not too lyrically disgusting. I have heard some Christian hip hop artists such as Toby Mac, John Reuben, Grits, and KJ-52. But so far as I can tell from what Ive heard none of them are reformed. I actually used to listen John Reuben quite a bit I enjoyed mellow raps about random things.

Who are some popular Reformed rappers that might come on the local "Christian" radio station?

 

[Roldan]

I was not even aware there was such a thing as reformed rap. I do not listen to music very often, but whenever I do I listen to all types of music so long as they are not too lyrically disgusting. I have heard some Christian hip hop artists such as Toby Mac, John Reuben, Grits, and KJ-52. But so far as I can tell from what Ive heard none of them are reformed. I actually used to listen John Reuben quite a bit I enjoyed mellow raps about random things.

Who are some popular Reformed rappers that might come on the local "Christian" radio station?

Reform Ordinance, ChristCentric, SHai Linne, Flame, Azriel, Timothy Brindle, Believen Stephen, CrossMovent(just calvinist) , Truth(Calvinist), Everyday Process(Calvinist)

 

[thywillnotminebedone]

so, what do you think of guys taking reformed theology and rapping about it? the rapper i am talking about is shai linne. i just came across him, to my surprise the lyrics are very biblical. so, is that ok?

here is a link to my blog where you can hear a song if you like

At the risk of sounding like a curmudgeon (though I am actually much too young to be a curmudgeon), I would have to answer your question with a resounding "No", it is not ok to mix biblical lyrics with rap or other such worldly music. I do not wish to offend any here (especially as I have not posted a great deal and most people do not know me well), and am reluctant to even post at all on this thread, but given the overwhelming preponderance of people who have posted to the opposite conclusion (other than a couple of dissenting voices), I decided to respond to at least help give a little balance to the discussion.

I do not doubt that many people involved in this sort of thing are well-meaning, but the thing itself is inherently wrong and unbiblical and, I believe, a force most destructive to deep godliness and compromising the testimony of vast numbers of professing Christians.

Simply put, the things of God are always to be handled with great reverence, this is a vital Scriptural principle, and it is assuredly not reverent to take lyrics concerning the things of God and set them to music which is intricately tied to a profane, worldly culture built on rebellion, sensuality, immorality and anarchy. While I am sure that people who listen to a great deal of rap and hip hop music can cite examples of "positive" messages here and there in the originators of those music types, there is no question that the values which people generally associate with them are not God-honouring. By and large, the people propelling those musical genres are doing so with a very anti-moral, anti-God agenda, so why in the world would Christians want to be associated with them in any way? We are to come out from the world, for friendship with the world is enmity with God. We are to avoid even the appearance of evil. Why then would we copy the world's music and even try to associate God's name with it? With all gentleness, I must say that this seems like nothing less than taking God's name in vain, for God has never intimated in His Word that His name should be associated with such things.

Quite the contrary, a principle found throughout the whole of Scripture is that the people of God must be set apart, and that the sacred must be set apart from the profane. God has always forbidden his people from borrowing from the immoral aspects of the heathen cultures around them.

While I know that the "regulative principle of worship" applies most directly only to stated times of worship, I believe that its principle applies always in the sense that the things of God should be sung about only according to the standards set out in God's Word, which rap and hip hop styles clearly fail to meet.

Finally, I would just say that music is not neutral. There is a definite moral content to beats and rhythms, both due to the cultures they are identified with and due to the affections and feelings which they excite, and it would seem clear that certain musical styles are simply not appropriate means to convey or discuss the things of God.

And it is certainly not necessary to adopt these styles in order to reach the youth generation. God's sovereignty is great enough to conquer people's hearts through the pure preaching of His Word.

Kind regards,

Jie-Huli

I am on board with your statement that music is not neutral. I have talked with people in my church about this and a lot of people disagree, but being a singer for so long I know better. Also, when you said "a principle found throughout the whole of Scripture is that the people of God must be set apart, and that the sacred must be set apart from the profane. God has always forbidden his people from borrowing from the immoral aspects of the heathen cultures around them." how are we to understand what is immoral and what is not if it's something the bible is silent on?(I am not referring to music, I do not think the bible is silent at all when it comes to music)

 

[Tim]

I would just like to chime in here with my thoughts.

I think we need to exercise caution in getting into things like rock and rap. If you go back to the birth of rock and roll music in the 50's, you will find that rebellion is a theme that is always associated with it. In the 60's and 70's, drugs were so associated with this form of music that you would not be able to separate the two. The rock we have today is a descendant of what began decades ago. As such, there is an intrinsic sinful element that is essential to this musical form. There are dangers there that we ought to recognize.

I know less about the development of rap, but I suspect that themes of gangsterism, drugs, etc. are also tightly woven into the fabric of that music. The other thing is that I wonder if the constant throbbing beat has effects of putting people into a sort of trance.

Admittedly, there will be gray areas on the fringes of these musical forms.

But, as to whether rap is reverent enough for Christianity, I say no. Over the last few years, my interest in such forms of music has almost completely disappeared. I just don't find it is edifying in any way. And I used to love classic rock.

I would be quite hesitant to say that these art forms can be redeemed. I agree with those who believe that musical forms are not inherently neutral.

Okay, let me have it!

 

[BobVigneault]

Tim, hip hop and rap were originally a means for telling stories. It gave a voice to young urbans to express themselves. In that respect, 'rap' is simply a medium. Like television, movies, radio, and other genres of poetry, the media can be abused. It can be used for good and noble purposes or it can be used to promote the lowest common denominator and ignoble ideas.

Of course we can call for caution but the caution is to beware of the wayward folks in our society who use any kind of media to promote detrimental sub-cultures and anti-family, anti-social behaviors and values.

Hip Hop and Rap as media are no more dangerous than music, movies, cell phones, the internet, etc.

 

[BobVigneault]

Furthermore, I do believe that headway, real progress, is being made in attempting to take back the genre and use it for spreading good stories and the Gospel (Good Speak). The Cross Movement, Christcentric, just to name a couple, are making great strides in using the genre to stimulate discussion and faith.

 

[Roldan]

And the main point in engaging hip hop to reform and redeem it is because ITS A CULTURE NOTJUST SOME TYPE OF MUSIC FORM. Did Paul shun the evil cultures of his day? Of course not but he engaged them and presented them the gospel, not to CHANGE the culture but to reform and redeem it. He made clear the SINS of the culture and rebuked it but never the culture as a whole. THis my dear brothers is the essence of the GREAT COMMISSION. MUSIC is of the Lord and we are taking it back!!

HOLLA!!!!!!!!

I suggest watching the Reform Ordinance video

 

[Tim]

And the main point in engaging hip hop to reform and redeem it is because ITS A CULTURE NOTJUST SOME TYPE OF MUSIC FORM. Did Paul shun the evil cultures of his day? Of course not but he engaged them and presented them the gospel, not to CHANGE the culture but to reform and redeem it. He made clear the SINS of the culture and rebuked it but never the culture as a whole. THis my dear brothers is the essence of the GREAT COMMISSION. MUSIC is of the Lord and we are taking it back!!

Okay, this is a useful post. Thanks, Roldan. I have some serious questions:

1. What do you mean by 'reform' and 'redeem'?
2. What do you mean by 'engage'?
3. Can you 'reform and redeem' a culture without 'changing' it?
4. If rap and hip-hop were perfectly and completely 'redeemed', in what way would they be different? In what way would they be the same?

We need to address these questions before we go further.

 

[Roldan]

so, what do you think of guys taking reformed theology and rapping about it? the rapper i am talking about is shai linne. i just came across him, to my surprise the lyrics are very biblical. so, is that ok?

here is a link to my blog where you can hear a song if you like

At the risk of sounding like a curmudgeon (though I am actually much too young to be a curmudgeon), I would have to answer your question with a resounding "No", it is not ok to mix biblical lyrics with rap or other such worldly music. I do not wish to offend any here (especially as I have not posted a great deal and most people do not know me well), and am reluctant to even post at all on this thread, but given the overwhelming preponderance of people who have posted to the opposite conclusion (other than a couple of dissenting voices), I decided to respond to at least help give a little balance to the discussion.

I do not doubt that many people involved in this sort of thing are well-meaning, but the thing itself is inherently wrong and unbiblical and, I believe, a force most destructive to deep godliness and compromising the testimony of vast numbers of professing Christians.

Simply put, the things of God are always to be handled with great reverence, this is a vital Scriptural principle, and it is assuredly not reverent to take lyrics concerning the things of God and set them to music which is intricately tied to a profane, worldly culture built on rebellion, sensuality, immorality and anarchy. While I am sure that people who listen to a great deal of rap and hip hop music can cite examples of "positive" messages here and there in the originators of those music types, there is no question that the values which people generally associate with them are not God-honouring. By and large, the people propelling those musical genres are doing so with a very anti-moral, anti-God agenda, so why in the world would Christians want to be associated with them in any way? We are to come out from the world, for friendship with the world is enmity with God. We are to avoid even the appearance of evil. Why then would we copy the world's music and even try to associate God's name with it? With all gentleness, I must say that this seems like nothing less than taking God's name in vain, for God has never intimated in His Word that His name should be associated with such things.

Quite the contrary, a principle found throughout the whole of Scripture is that the people of God must be set apart, and that the sacred must be set apart from the profane. God has always forbidden his people from borrowing from the immoral aspects of the heathen cultures around them.

While I know that the "regulative principle of worship" applies most directly only to stated times of worship, I believe that its principle applies always in the sense that the things of God should be sung about only according to the standards set out in God's Word, which rap and hip hop styles clearly fail to meet.

Finally, I would just say that music is not neutral. There is a definite moral content to beats and rhythms, both due to the cultures they are identified with and due to the affections and feelings which they excite, and it would seem clear that certain musical styles are simply not appropriate means to convey or discuss the things of God.

And it is certainly not necessary to adopt these styles in order to reach the youth generation. God's sovereignty is great enough to conquer people's hearts through the pure preaching of His Word.

Kind regards,

Jie-Huli

Also, when you said "a principle found throughout the whole of Scripture is that the people of God must be set apart, and that the sacred must be set apart from the profane. God has always forbidden his people from borrowing from the immoral aspects of the heathen cultures around them."

First you must prove that the Origins of HipHop or even rock or whatever were originally immoral and profane. And even if they were it wouldn't matter because what Satan means for evil God can mean it for good.

Did not Paul use quotes of the heathen pagan poets to make known the true and living God when he addressed the pagan greek philosophers when he stood in the midst of Areopagus? (Acts 17:22-32, emphasis on verse 28) those poets were Epimenides, Cleanthes, and Aratus. Also Paul quotes Epimenides again in Titus 1:12.

Acts 17:22-32

22 So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, [2] 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, 28 for

“‘In him we live and move and have our being’; [3]

as even some of your own poets have said,

“‘For we are indeed his offspring.’ [4]
29 Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

32 Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked. But others said, “We will hear you again about this.” 33 So Paul went out from their midst. 34 But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.

Titus 1:10-13

10 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. 11 They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach. 12 One of the Cretans, [6] a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” [7] 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,

And the icing on the cake as already mentioned in this thread..

1 Cor. 9:19-23

19 For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.

Paul became the culture without conforming to the sins of that culture.


Second, yes we must be set apart BUT NOT DE-PART.

how are we to understand what is immoral and what is not if it's something the bible is silent on?(I am not referring to music, I do not think the bible is silent at all when it comes to music)

The bible is not silent on immorality. What we must look at is the PRINCIPLES of sin found in the bible and apply them. For example, does the bible clearly state that smoking weed is immoral? No. But we know the SIN of drunkeness is immoral and is applied to getting high, a dry drunkeness.

Hope this helps

 

[Roldan]

And the main point in engaging hip hop to reform and redeem it is because ITS A CULTURE NOTJUST SOME TYPE OF MUSIC FORM. Did Paul shun the evil cultures of his day? Of course not but he engaged them and presented them the gospel, not to CHANGE the culture but to reform and redeem it. He made clear the SINS of the culture and rebuked it but never the culture as a whole. THis my dear brothers is the essence of the GREAT COMMISSION. MUSIC is of the Lord and we are taking it back!!

Okay, this is a useful post. Thanks, Roldan. I have some serious questions:

1. What do you mean by 'reform' and 'redeem'?

I should have said Redeem and Reform

But what I mean by Redeem is the same meaning Paul meant it....

22...I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.

By Reform I mean in Theology.

2. What do you mean by 'engage'?

The same way Paul meant it....

1 Cor. 9:19-23

19 For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.

3. Can you 'reform and redeem' a culture without 'changing' it?

Depends what we are changing. What needs to be changed its the unregenerate sinful hearts and the gross sins that accompany it which of course would include its pagan philosophies but changing the way they dress or their language and their music in unnecessary cause its not sinful UNLESS its because of a pagan ritual which of course is idolatry therefore sin. When you go to Africa and engage their culture, what is our goal? To present the gospel and save and let the renewing of their mind via regeneration naturally change their heathenisms, are we now going to tell these African tribes that they now must adopt western European or American culture and wear suits and ties, jeans etc....and get rid of thier drums and intruments and exchange them for classical music, pipe organs etc...? of course not. This principle goes for any culture.

4. If rap and hip-hop were perfectly and completely 'redeemed', in what way would they be different? In what way would they be the same?

Different? the sinful customs as mentioned above.

Same? Language, clothing, music, and customs that are NOT sinful.

More questions are welcomed brother.

 

[VictorBravo]

I like chicken raps..they're mighty tasty.



Yo, I'm Big John C. and I'm hear to see,
Why even pray, it's predestined anyway.

Stick to your chicken raps, your ryhme isn't fly (mostly because it doesn't ryhme).

I believe he meant "say".

Come on guys! Haven't you heard of Internal Rhyme?

I guess Pergy is just a bit too sophisticated of a poet for these parts.

 

[Roldan]

this is my favorite smiley, who gets their own smiley? only the most awesomest awesome homie in puritan land lol


bump

 

[Tim]

But what I mean by Redeem is the same meaning Paul meant it....
...
By Reform I mean in Theology.
...
The same way Paul meant it....
...
Depends what we are changing. What needs to be changed its the unregenerate sinful hearts and the gross sins that accompany it which of course would include its pagan philosophies but changing the way they dress or their language and their music in unnecessary cause its not sinful UNLESS its because of a pagan ritual which of course is idolatry therefore sin. When you go to Africa and engage their culture, what is our goal? To present the gospel and save and let the renewing of their mind via regeneration naturally change their heathenisms, are we now going to tell these African tribes that they now must adopt western European or American culture and wear suits and ties, jeans etc....and get rid of thier drums and intruments and exchange them for classical music, pipe organs etc...? of course not. This principle goes for any culture.
...
Different? the sinful customs as mentioned above.
...
Same? Language, clothing, music, and customs that are NOT sinful.

I think there is some begging of the question here. You are claiming that what you are suggesting is just like what the apostle Paul meant. But I don't see that you have adequately made the connection. That is why I asked what does it mean to 'redeem' (in this day and age). As well, you mention that changing music is unnecessary because it is not sinful unless it is of pagan origin. But that is precisely the (unresolved) question at hand.

This issue, as I understand how it has been defined earlier, is whether it is suitable to use rap music as a vehicle for spiritual good or to communicate spiritual truth. It is not adequate simply to state that music is neutral, therefore it is okay. Additionally, whether God Himself in His sovereign ordering of things can use it for good is not the question either (God uses sin for good, but we are not to sin).

Let me quote something posted earlier by Ben (ascottishsamurai) that I think is important here:

But then something happened that changed the genre. Musically, the beats became more suggestive and tried to stir feelings of pride within the heart. The lyrics simply changed to match. It became a self-glorifying culture.

I understand that he stated that originally the music was not like this (perhaps that is true), but this quote captures what I have felt about rock and rap after my conversion. These musical forms always made me feel like I didn't need God; that I was strong enough on my own and could do anything. That is why I stay away from it - it is spiritually destructive. I don't see how you can change the music to make this not be the case.

The other thing that has not yet mentioned is melody. Consider this well-known verse:

Eph 5:19 addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart...

The word translated 'melody' (according to Strong's) is to use a stringed instrument/sing/melody. Rap does not have melody, by the very nature of the form. It is not singing. There seems to be divine warrant to deliver truth to one another using song, but rap does not satisfy this. There is also divine warrant to read and preach, but rap does not seem to satisfy this either.

My conclusion is that rap is not compatible with reformed doctrine. I don't see how it can be a reverent vehicle to communicate Biblical truth.

 

[Tim]

I will just say, though, that I do not really agree with the premise that we can look at any musical style in a vacuum . . . if its origin is in an ungodly sub-culture, then it would seem to me at least a good and necessary inference from Scripture that it is not to be adopted for conveying God's Word.

Well said.

 

[Roldan]

I think there is some begging of the question here. You are claiming that what you are suggesting is just like what the apostle Paul meant. But I don't see that you have adequately made the connection. That is why I asked what does it mean to 'redeem' (in this day and age).

With all due respect sir as a brother in Christ and all, but you can't just state you disagree with my interpretation and then offer no alternative. I am very confident that I am in good company in Paul's meaning of the passages I presented, if need be I can provide more extensive exegesis on the passages by our Historical and modern Reform scholarly bretheren.

Also to "redeem" is the same in ANY day and age because the root of humanities evils come from the same depraved heart therefore the remedy is the same simply the Gospel of Jesus Christ hence the need to redeem culture in Paul's day and age is the same need in our day and age.

As well, you mention that changing music is unnecessary because it is not sinful unless it is of pagan origin. But that is precisely the (unresolved) question at hand.

This issue, as I understand how it has been defined earlier, is whether it is suitable to use rap music as a vehicle for spiritual good or to communicate spiritual truth. It is not adequate simply to state that music is neutral, therefore it is okay. Additionally, whether God Himself in His sovereign ordering of things can use it for good is not the question either (God uses sin for good, but we are not to sin).

Let me quote something posted earlier by Ben (ascottishsamurai) that I think is important here:

But then something happened that changed the genre. Musically, the beats became more suggestive and tried to stir feelings of pride within the heart. The lyrics simply changed to match. It became a self-glorifying culture.

ANd? What does this prove? I think this even gives further burden of proof to my position. If it BECAME a self-glorifying culutre then why not present Christ and disciple this culture/nation to a God-glorifying culture?

I understand that he stated that originally the music was not like this (perhaps that is true), but this quote captures what I have felt about rock and rap after my conversion. These musical forms always made me feel like I didn't need God; that I was strong enough on my own and could do anything. That is why I stay away from it - it is spiritually destructive. I don't see how you can change the music to make this not be the case.

This is an argument based on your personal experience but doesn't prove anything I said to be in error. Thats like telling me its wrong to drink wine or beer because you usto be an alcholic but now stay away from it and therefore wrong for everyone. Again this is just your personal preference and I respect that but it does not logically follow that its ALL bad.

Through my music what I have seen is drug dealers and thugs coming to Christ and then I further disciple them to sound doctrine, thats if we are going to use the personal experience argument. But nevertheless it has been an instrument in bring a culture to the Holiness of God and teaching them what the first question of the shorter catechism means..

1. What is the Chief end of man?

A. To Glorify God and to enjoy Him forever.

The other thing that has not yet mentioned is melody. Consider this well-known verse:

Eph 5:19 addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart...

The word translated 'melody' (according to Strong's) is to use a stringed instrument/sing/melody. Rap does not have melody, by the very nature of the form. It is not singing. There seems to be divine warrant to deliver truth to one another using song, but rap does not satisfy this. There is also divine warrant to read and preach, but rap does not seem to satisfy this either.

This begs a plethora of questions. I think though that you should do some research on the origins of Hip Hop before you can make such erroneous claims. Rap does not have melody? This is far from the truth, the very essence of rap is melody. It began as a form of singing and also uses stringed instruments but actually thats neither here nor there because Christian rap or Holy Hip Hop or Reformed Hip Hop whatever a person wants to call it, is spiritual and is included under "spiritual songs". There are African tribes that have been redeemed and do not used "stringed" instruments are you asserting that their worship is not acceptable to God? I hope not.

My conclusion is that rap is not compatible with reformed doctrine. I don't see how it can be a reverent vehicle to communicate Biblical truth.

But you see sir that the problem is that you haven't proven your conclusion exegetically or have offered any alternative exegesis to my, according to you, wrong meaning of Paul and have only based your whole argument on personal preference.

All culture must be redeemed not entirely changed into western European culture.

 

[Roldan]

I will just say, though, that I do not really agree with the premise that we can look at any musical style in a vacuum . . . if its origin is in an ungodly sub-culture, then it would seem to me at least a good and necessary inference from Scripture that it is not to be adopted for conveying God's Word.

Well said.

Whats interesting is that neither you nor Jie have proven any of these mere assertions and have based an argument on an erroneous premise therefore tearing down a strawman. BUT even if this premise was true, it still wouldn't nullify the fact that Paul used ungodly poets of a culture to convey God's Word, and this point that I made hasn't even been touched but actually ignored.

 

[Tim]

I have waited a few days to post my reply because I wanted to think carefully about this. Let me say that I have no doubt of the sincerity of those who think it appropriate to use rap music as some sort of ministry. It is also hard for me to post my comments because there are evidently people on the Puritan Board who are already engaged in these things that I would disagree with. However, the question has willingly been posed in the original post and I will continue to contribute to this discussion as best I can.

Once again, I believe the issue is whether rap music is an appropriate and reverent vehicle to communicate spiritual truth.

I will primarily be addressing recent comments made by Roldan, since he has taken the time to give his perspective on my arguments. I surely do appreciate your contribution to this discussion, brother!

1. I really think that the important issue regarding rap is that today it is associated with immorality and profanity, even if not all artists participate in this. The association is strong; no one should deny this. If you use rap to communicate spiritual truth, you will simply be using a vehicle that most people associate with immorality and profanity, even if some artists don’t participate in that immorality. As such, it would appear to be a strange mix of worldly and spiritual matter; darkness and light, so to speak.

2. That the apostle Paul quoted Greek literature is neither here nor there, since it does not represent adopting an entire artistic genre to use in communication of truth. He quoted. That’s all. He didn’t link up with those philosophers and write poetry in their style to communicate his message.

3. The most important issue is what it means when the apostle Paul says

I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.

None of us would disagree that this is a principle by which to live. Where we do disagree, however, is what it means to 'become all things to all people'. Some might say that it is appropriate to become a rapper to save rappers. But if we substitute to get, “become a prostitute to save prostitutes”, it can now easily be seen that there is a limit to the application of this verse. That is, there clearly are some things that one should not participate in even though they desire to do good for those who do them. Now, if you say, “but prostitution is not appropriate; rap is appropriate”, you are begging the question because the appropriateness of rap is precisely the issue being discussed. My argument for this question is given in point number 1.

4. I am glad that drug dealers and thugs have been coming to Christ under your ministry, Roldan. I don’t deny that we should praise God for this fact and thank Him for your ministry. South Florida does indeed need you. It’s difficult for me to present my views in this thread because I know that there are people like you who are already doing these things, so it sounds like I am criticizing your ministry. Let me stress that I want my comments to be general in nature rather than directed toward you. We just don’t want to be pragmatic on this (I am not accusing anyone of pragmatism, I am just making the statement).

5. As to the comment that

the essence of rap is melody

I am obviously missing something if this is the case. I thought I knew what rap was.

6. As to African tribes not using stringed instruments in worship, I didn’t think we were discussing worship. If we were, I would simply say that I believe in exclusive psalmody and a capella singing (but that is a separate discussion).

I really don't know what else to say, except that I believe that the important verse here is 1 Cor. 9:19-23. One's actions will depend on how they apply that verse. That is why I asked what it means to redeem and reform rap music in the year 2008. May God grant us all wisdom on this matter - that we would do things that are pleasing to Him and be powerful witnesses for the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[charliejunfan]

Reformed Rap is fine as long as it causes you think of things that are edifying, I for one am a big fan of Shai Linne, he is so precise in his lyrics, when i listen to him it keeps me meditating on the realities of the Atonement. I have both of his albums, the Sola Christus Project and The Atonement(there is a very good song on particular atonement) his albums can be purchased at lampmode.com Christian Liberty! if it causes pure meditation then its good if not then one should stay away

 

[ManleyBeasley]

I didnt even listen to rap until these reformed christian guys. I love LeCrae. Reformed Rap is probably my favorite christian music thats out there right now. I'm actually a guitarist and usually listen to Indie, Blues, and Classic Rock.

 

[Roldan]

It is also hard for me to post my comments because there are evidently people on the Puritan Board who are already engaged in these things that I would disagree with. However, the question has willingly been posed in the original post and I will continue to contribute to this discussion as best I can.

LOL trust me I understand but remember the majority doesn't make a view right or wrong even though it does lead one to contemplate more on the issue.

I will primarily be addressing recent comments made by Roldan, since he has taken the time to give his perspective on my arguments. I surely do appreciate your contribution to this discussion, brother!

Thank you sir, same here.

1. I really think that the important issue regarding rap is that today it is associated with immorality and profanity, even if not all artists participate in this. The association is strong; no one should deny this.

Your absolutely correct, I agree 100%. But thats Hip Hop TODAY it did not start out that way my brother, thats an important point. Unfortunately rap is associated with these evils because of the bad rap thats promoted without any clue of the positive rap that is underground that actually dominates the genre. Association with something doesn't logically follow that it is the same thing it is associated with. For example Jesus associated Himself with the sinners of His day by eating and drinking and fellowshipping with them, did that make Jesus a sinner? The Scribes thought so and condemned Him for it, but we know better.

If you use rap to communicate spiritual truth, you will simply be using a vehicle that most people associate with immorality and profanity, even if some artists don’t participate in that immorality. As such, it would appear to be a strange mix of worldly and spiritual matter; darkness and light, so to speak.

Well, that would be your opinion and I respect that. But it doesn't logically follow that because there is immorality and profanity in Hip Hop that this is ALL Hip Hop is all about. So your reasoning here appears to me to be begging the question as to whether Christian Hip Hop is strangely mixing wordly/spiritual or darkness/light according to your contrast. But if I grant you that this is the case, then there is NO music genre that should be mixing their style of music with the spiritual since most associate all music that is secular as ungodly and immoral therefore any christian is to only listen to accapella lyrics and not listen to music at all.

2. That the apostle Paul quoted Greek literature is neither here nor there, since it does not represent adopting an entire artistic genre to use in communication of truth. He quoted. That’s all. He didn’t link up with those philosophers and write poetry in their style to communicate his message.

I would have to totally disagree with you here. He DID link up with those philosophers and used their written poetry and style to communicate the GOSPEL message, this is not to be overlooked. Not only did Paul quote Greek literature, he quoted from their philosophers who were referencing their idolatrous false gods such as Zeus and USED THAT to his own advantage for the sake of the Gospel, and this principle is what your missing here. I don't even quote non-christian anything, am I better than Paul in this respect? by no means but the emphasis of this point is extremely strong. I'm not saying Paul did it exactley the same as us but its the PRINCIPLE that we are to learn from.

3. The most important issue is what it means when the apostle Paul says

I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.

None of us would disagree that this is a principle by which to live.

Remember what you just said, "this is a principle by which to live". Now you explain this principle for us please.

Where we do disagree, however, is what it means to 'become all things to all people'. Some might say that it is appropriate to become a rapper to save rappers.

No sir, we are not saving rappers per se. We want to save the individuals in this culture. If rappers are saved, great but our philosophy has never been "become a rapper to save a rapper". This is not our argument.

But if we substitute to get, “become a prostitute to save prostitutes”, it can now easily be seen that there is a limit to the application of this verse. That is, there clearly are some things that one should not participate in even though they desire to do good for those who do them.

I can only respond to this by what I already have asserted concerning this...

Paul became the culture without conforming to the sins of that culture.


Second, yes we must be set apart BUT NOT DE-PART.

And....

Depends what we are changing. What needs to be changed its the unregenerate sinful hearts and the gross sins that accompany it which of course would include its pagan philosophies but changing the way they dress or their language and their music in unnecessary cause its not sinful UNLESS its because of a pagan ritual which of course is idolatry therefore sin.

Different? the sinful customs as mentioned above.

Same? Language, clothing, music, and customs that are NOT sinful.

Your argument was a strawman anyways but I think I answered in full.

Now, if you say, “but prostitution is not appropriate; rap is appropriate”, you are begging the question because the appropriateness of rap is precisely the issue being discussed. My argument for this question is given in point number 1.

Ok then we need to stick to this issue because you as of yet have proven your premise that Rap originally or is in essence immoral therefore evil. And your right I will say but prostitution is not only not appropriate but is A SIN, Hip Hop is not

4. I am glad that drug dealers and thugs have been coming to Christ under your ministry, Roldan. I don’t deny that we should praise God for this fact and thank Him for your ministry. South Florida does indeed need you. It’s difficult for me to present my views in this thread because I know that there are people like you who are already doing these things, so it sounds like I am criticizing your ministry. Let me stress that I want my comments to be general in nature rather than directed toward you. We just don’t want to be pragmatic on this (I am not accusing anyone of pragmatism, I am just making the statement).

Coo bro much appreciated.

5. As to the comment that

the essence of rap is melody

I am obviously missing something if this is the case. I thought I knew what rap was.

Rude awakening huh? LOL do some research on it thats if your interested anyways

6. As to African tribes not using stringed instruments in worship, I didn’t think we were discussing worship. If we were, I would simply say that I believe in exclusive psalmody and a capella singing (but that is a separate discussion).

Well I didn't mean to just isolate the discussion to worship but to their musical culture in general, sorry bout that.

I really don't know what else to say, except that I believe that the important verse here is 1 Cor. 9:19-23. One's actions will depend on how they apply that verse. That is why I asked what it means to redeem and reform rap music in the year 2008.

It doesn't matter what time period we are in, fallen human creatures will be just that in all ages and in all cultures and that is what I have been trying to convey. Not that you don't know that but sometimes we need reminders.

May God grant us all wisdom on this matter - that we would do things that are pleasing to Him and be powerful witnesses for the Lord Jesus Christ.

AMEN!!

 

[ReformedWretch]

Great site for reformed rap:

Lamp Mode Recordings

I like all of these guys recently really getting into Stephen the Levite. Listen to this song!

http://www.freshoutmedia.com/~lampmode/tracks/11 The Choir.mp3

 

[Archlute]

I still do not consider rap/hip-hop worthy of the label "music", and I probably never will.

That must be due to my bigoted, imperialistic, Western view as to the very definition of music. It also probably has something to do with the fact that I graduated magna cum laude from a Bachelor of Music theory and performance program at a bigoted, imperialistic, Western-minded university. Cursed be all historical meta-narratives with their agendas of oppression, and the subjection of other people's stories to their arrogant and intolerant cultural snobbery!

Oh well

 

[ReformedWretch]

Adam, you should at least hear these lyrics! I am not a big rap fan at all but this stuff is great in my opinion!