Regeneration preceeding faith...
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Greg
Puritan Board Sophomore
What does the unregenerate man look like?
"None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."
13"Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive."
"The venom of asps is under their lips."
14"Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16in their paths are ruin and misery,
17and the way of peace they have not known."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes." -Romans 3:10-18
"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." Romans 8:7-8
Unregenerate man cannot, nor will not, place his faith in the One whom he wants desperately to flee from:
"And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. 20For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God." -John 3:19-21
Regeneration is necessary for the faith required by God for salvation. We need a new heart, a new nature, and new affections if we are to come to Christ. God mercifully overcomes our natural hostility and emnity toward Him so that we may effectually exercise saving faith.
"None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."
13"Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive."
"The venom of asps is under their lips."
14"Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16in their paths are ruin and misery,
17and the way of peace they have not known."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes." -Romans 3:10-18
"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." Romans 8:7-8
Unregenerate man cannot, nor will not, place his faith in the One whom he wants desperately to flee from:
"And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. 20For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God." -John 3:19-21
Regeneration is necessary for the faith required by God for salvation. We need a new heart, a new nature, and new affections if we are to come to Christ. God mercifully overcomes our natural hostility and emnity toward Him so that we may effectually exercise saving faith.
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
Joshua, isn't John 3 saying that one must be born again in order to go to heaven?
I've heard it said that regeneration and faith are simultaneous occurrences; that niether happens apart from the other. What do you guys think?
I've heard it said that regeneration and faith are simultaneous occurrences; that niether happens apart from the other. What do you guys think?
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
Sorry to bother you...
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
Hey Joshua, thank you for your concern. I think I'm just in one of those moods tonight. I felt like you were telling me I don't understand when I only asked a question. And then when you called me "Sir", I took it a certain way because I'm not used to being called that. It felt like you were angry or annoyed with me for asking the question I asked. You don't have to edit anything though.
Originally posted by joshua
Originally posted by BaptistInCrisis
BESIDES THE FACT that Josh is a rebel...BESIDES THE FACT that he like sweet tea (instead of unsweetened tea)...he is actually a good guy.
There is no one righteous. No, not even one!
Thank you, Sir, for the kind words about me. And, in all actuality, I'm not a Rebel, as I do not believe the Southern states were rebelling since, by vote and ratification they legally seceded (but that's for a different thread)
Seriously, Bill. Thanks. You're a good fella too. Not like the mobster, Goodfellas. Like an actual good fella. Wow. What a way to distract from the topic at hand.
Forgedabodit.
C. Matthew McMahon
Christian Preacher
Some things to consider:
The Holy Spirit, Regeneration, and Sanctification
http://www.apuritansmind.com/ChristianWalk/McMahonHSRegenSanct.htm
A Summary of The Doctrine of the Holy Spirit
http://www.apuritansmind.com/ChristianWalk/McMahonSummaryHolySpirit.htm
This excerpt:
Taken from:
Coming to Faith:
A Polemic Examining Theological Paradigms Pertaining to Neophytes
and Heretics in the Essentials of Christianity
http://www.apuritansmind.com/ChristianWalk/McMahonComingToFaith.htm
The Holy Spirit, Regeneration, and Sanctification
http://www.apuritansmind.com/ChristianWalk/McMahonHSRegenSanct.htm
A Summary of The Doctrine of the Holy Spirit
http://www.apuritansmind.com/ChristianWalk/McMahonSummaryHolySpirit.htm
This excerpt:
Taken from:
Coming to Faith:
A Polemic Examining Theological Paradigms Pertaining to Neophytes
and Heretics in the Essentials of Christianity
http://www.apuritansmind.com/ChristianWalk/McMahonComingToFaith.htm
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
Joshua, no problem. Thanks. God bless you.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Brian,
The topic has been discussed here on the board at length; it is one of my pet issues. I suggest getting a copy of P. Van Mastrichts book 'A Treaty on Regeneration'. In the book Van Mastricht explains the segmentation of the Ordo Salutis.
Example: John the baptist was regenerated in the womb:
Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
acknowledging these truths:
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Rom 10:14 How then may they call on One into whom they have not believed? And how may they believe One of whom they have not heard? And how may they hear without preaching?
John was regenerated in the womb, only later to become converted under the faithful preaching of Gods chosen servants.
As well:
The Jews who hung Christ on the cross, i.e. the pharisees, were well schooled in Gods word over the years, possibly were regenerate individuals, whom later under the preached truths by Peter, were regenerated at Pentecost:
Act 3:12 And seeing this, Peter answered to the people, Men, Israelites, why do you marvel at this one? Or why do you stare at us, as if by our own power or godliness we have made him to walk?
Act 3:13 The "God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob," "the God of our fathers," Ex. 3:15 glorified His child Jesus, whom you delivered up, and denied Him in the presence of Pilate, that one having decided to set Him free.
Act 3:14 But you denied the Holy and Just One, and asked for a man, a murderer, to be granted to you.
Act 3:15 And the Author of Life you killed, whom God raised up from the dead, of which we are witnesses.
Act 3:16 And on the faith of His name, this one whom you see and know was made firm by His name, and the faith which came through Him gave to him this complete soundness before you all.
Act 3:17 And now, brothers, I know that you acted according to ignorance, as also did your rulers.
Act 3:18 But what things God before proclaimed through the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ should suffer, He fulfilled in this manner.
Act 3:19 Therefore, repent, and convert, for the blotting out of your sins, so that times of refreshing may come from the face of the Lord,
Act 3:20 and that He may send forth the One before proclaimed to you, Jesus Christ,
Act 3:21 whom Heaven truly needs to receive until the times of restoration of all things, of which God spoke through the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age past.
Act 3:22 For Moses indeed said to the fathers, "The Lord your God will raise up to you a Prophet from among your brothers, One like me; you shall hear Him according to all things," whatever He may speak to you. See Deut. 18:15-16, 19
Act 3:23 And it shall be that of every soul, whoever should not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.
Act 3:24 And also all the prophets, from Samuel and those following after, as many as spoke, also before announced these days.
Act 3:25 You are sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God appointed to our fathers, saying to Abraham, "Even in your Seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed." Gen. 22:18
Act 3:26 Having raised up His child Jesus, God sent Him first to you, blessing you in turning away each one from your iniquities.
Act 4:1 And as they were speaking to the people, the priests, and the temple commander, and the Sadducees stood near them,
Act 4:2 being distressed because they taught the people and announced in Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
Act 4:3 And they laid hands on them, and put them into custody until the morrow, for it was already evening.
Act 4:4 But many of those hearing the Word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.
Act 2:22 Men, Israelites, hear these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a Man from God, having been approved among you by works of power and wonders and miraculous signs, which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know,
Act 2:23 this One given to you by the before-determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you having taken by lawless hands, having crucified Him, you killed Him.
Act 2:24 But God raised Him up, loosing the throes of death, because it was not possible for Him to be held by it.
Act 2:25 For David said as to Him, "I always foresaw the Lord before Me, because He is at My right hand, that I not be moved.
Act 2:26 For this reason My heart rejoiced, and My tongue was glad; and My flesh also will dwell on hope,
Act 2:27 because You will not leave My soul in Hades, nor will You give Your Holy One to see corruption.
Act 2:28 You revealed to Me paths of life; You will fill Me with joy with Your face." LXX-Psa. 15:8-11; MT-Psa. 16:8-11
Act 2:29 Men, brothers, it is permitted to say to you with plainness as to the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is among us until this day.
Act 2:30 Being a prophet, then, and knowing that God swore with an oath to him that of the fruit of his loin, as concerning flesh, to raise the Christ to sit on his throne, see Psa. 132:11
Act 2:31 foreseeing, he spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, "that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption." LXX-Psa. 15:10; Mt-Psa. 16:10
Act 2:32 This Jesus, God raised up, of which we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Then being exalted to the right of God, and receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David did not ascend into Heaven, but he says, "The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at My right hand
Act 2:35 until I place those hostile to You as a footstool for Your feet." LXX-Psa. 109:1; MT-Psa. 110:1
Act 2:36 Then assuredly, let all the house of Israel acknowledge that God made Him both Lord and Christ, this same Jesus whom you crucified.
Act 2:37 And hearing, they were stabbed in the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, Men, brothers, What shall we do?
Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, each of you on the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all those afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words he earnestly testified and exhorted, saying, Be saved from this perverse generation.
Act 2:41 Then truly the ones gladly welcoming His Word were baptized. And about three thousand souls were added that day.
Sometimes the ordo can be instantaneous; I would not deny this. Instantaneous is segmental. There is time in the phases; even if it is a nanosecond, there is time. So, in my opinion, it can be either way.........it is Gods mystery.
Another example is Lydia:
Act 16:13 And on the day of the sabbaths, we went outside the city beside a river, where it was customary for prayer to be made. And sitting down, we spoke to the women who came together there.
Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple of the city of Thyatira, one reverencing God, listened, whose heart the Lord opened thoroughly to pay attention to the things being spoken by Paul.
Act 16:15 And as she and her household were baptized, she entreated Paul, saying, If you have judged me to be believing in the Lord, entering into my house, remain. And she strongly urged us.
Lydia was Jewish; she revered God; fruitlessly. God then regenerated her (opened her heart) to heed the things (to see the kingdom) and Pauls faithful preaching catalyzed the conversion by way of the Holy Spirit.
Mat 13:9 The one having ears to hear, let him hear.
Ears are needed; this happens according to J 3:3
Mat 13:10 And coming near, the disciples said to Him, Why do You speak to them in parables?
Mat 13:11 And answering, He said to them, Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven, but it has not been given to those.
Sight must be given.....
Mat 13:12 For whoever has, to him will be given, and he will have overabundance. But whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.
Mat 13:13 Because of this, I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled on them, which says, "In hearing you will hear and in no way understand, and seeing you will see yet in no way perceive.
Mat 13:15 For the heart of this people has grown fat, and they heard heavily with the ears, and they have closed their eyes, that they not see with the eyes, or hear with the ears, and understand with the heart, and be converted, and I heal them."
Sight and hearing first (John 3:3), then conversion.........
Mat 13:16 But your eyes are blessed because they see; and your ears because they hear.
Mat 13:17 For truly I tell you that many prophets and righteous ones desired to see what you see and did not see, and to hear what you hear and did not hear
[Edited on 4-29-2006 by Scott Bushey]
The topic has been discussed here on the board at length; it is one of my pet issues. I suggest getting a copy of P. Van Mastrichts book 'A Treaty on Regeneration'. In the book Van Mastricht explains the segmentation of the Ordo Salutis.
Example: John the baptist was regenerated in the womb:
Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
acknowledging these truths:
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Rom 10:14 How then may they call on One into whom they have not believed? And how may they believe One of whom they have not heard? And how may they hear without preaching?
John was regenerated in the womb, only later to become converted under the faithful preaching of Gods chosen servants.
As well:
The Jews who hung Christ on the cross, i.e. the pharisees, were well schooled in Gods word over the years, possibly were regenerate individuals, whom later under the preached truths by Peter, were regenerated at Pentecost:
Act 3:12 And seeing this, Peter answered to the people, Men, Israelites, why do you marvel at this one? Or why do you stare at us, as if by our own power or godliness we have made him to walk?
Act 3:13 The "God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob," "the God of our fathers," Ex. 3:15 glorified His child Jesus, whom you delivered up, and denied Him in the presence of Pilate, that one having decided to set Him free.
Act 3:14 But you denied the Holy and Just One, and asked for a man, a murderer, to be granted to you.
Act 3:15 And the Author of Life you killed, whom God raised up from the dead, of which we are witnesses.
Act 3:16 And on the faith of His name, this one whom you see and know was made firm by His name, and the faith which came through Him gave to him this complete soundness before you all.
Act 3:17 And now, brothers, I know that you acted according to ignorance, as also did your rulers.
Act 3:18 But what things God before proclaimed through the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ should suffer, He fulfilled in this manner.
Act 3:19 Therefore, repent, and convert, for the blotting out of your sins, so that times of refreshing may come from the face of the Lord,
Act 3:20 and that He may send forth the One before proclaimed to you, Jesus Christ,
Act 3:21 whom Heaven truly needs to receive until the times of restoration of all things, of which God spoke through the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age past.
Act 3:22 For Moses indeed said to the fathers, "The Lord your God will raise up to you a Prophet from among your brothers, One like me; you shall hear Him according to all things," whatever He may speak to you. See Deut. 18:15-16, 19
Act 3:23 And it shall be that of every soul, whoever should not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.
Act 3:24 And also all the prophets, from Samuel and those following after, as many as spoke, also before announced these days.
Act 3:25 You are sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God appointed to our fathers, saying to Abraham, "Even in your Seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed." Gen. 22:18
Act 3:26 Having raised up His child Jesus, God sent Him first to you, blessing you in turning away each one from your iniquities.
Act 4:1 And as they were speaking to the people, the priests, and the temple commander, and the Sadducees stood near them,
Act 4:2 being distressed because they taught the people and announced in Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
Act 4:3 And they laid hands on them, and put them into custody until the morrow, for it was already evening.
Act 4:4 But many of those hearing the Word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.
Act 2:22 Men, Israelites, hear these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a Man from God, having been approved among you by works of power and wonders and miraculous signs, which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know,
Act 2:23 this One given to you by the before-determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you having taken by lawless hands, having crucified Him, you killed Him.
Act 2:24 But God raised Him up, loosing the throes of death, because it was not possible for Him to be held by it.
Act 2:25 For David said as to Him, "I always foresaw the Lord before Me, because He is at My right hand, that I not be moved.
Act 2:26 For this reason My heart rejoiced, and My tongue was glad; and My flesh also will dwell on hope,
Act 2:27 because You will not leave My soul in Hades, nor will You give Your Holy One to see corruption.
Act 2:28 You revealed to Me paths of life; You will fill Me with joy with Your face." LXX-Psa. 15:8-11; MT-Psa. 16:8-11
Act 2:29 Men, brothers, it is permitted to say to you with plainness as to the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is among us until this day.
Act 2:30 Being a prophet, then, and knowing that God swore with an oath to him that of the fruit of his loin, as concerning flesh, to raise the Christ to sit on his throne, see Psa. 132:11
Act 2:31 foreseeing, he spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, "that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption." LXX-Psa. 15:10; Mt-Psa. 16:10
Act 2:32 This Jesus, God raised up, of which we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Then being exalted to the right of God, and receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David did not ascend into Heaven, but he says, "The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at My right hand
Act 2:35 until I place those hostile to You as a footstool for Your feet." LXX-Psa. 109:1; MT-Psa. 110:1
Act 2:36 Then assuredly, let all the house of Israel acknowledge that God made Him both Lord and Christ, this same Jesus whom you crucified.
Act 2:37 And hearing, they were stabbed in the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, Men, brothers, What shall we do?
Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, each of you on the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all those afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words he earnestly testified and exhorted, saying, Be saved from this perverse generation.
Act 2:41 Then truly the ones gladly welcoming His Word were baptized. And about three thousand souls were added that day.
Sometimes the ordo can be instantaneous; I would not deny this. Instantaneous is segmental. There is time in the phases; even if it is a nanosecond, there is time. So, in my opinion, it can be either way.........it is Gods mystery.
Another example is Lydia:
Act 16:13 And on the day of the sabbaths, we went outside the city beside a river, where it was customary for prayer to be made. And sitting down, we spoke to the women who came together there.
Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple of the city of Thyatira, one reverencing God, listened, whose heart the Lord opened thoroughly to pay attention to the things being spoken by Paul.
Act 16:15 And as she and her household were baptized, she entreated Paul, saying, If you have judged me to be believing in the Lord, entering into my house, remain. And she strongly urged us.
Lydia was Jewish; she revered God; fruitlessly. God then regenerated her (opened her heart) to heed the things (to see the kingdom) and Pauls faithful preaching catalyzed the conversion by way of the Holy Spirit.
Mat 13:9 The one having ears to hear, let him hear.
Ears are needed; this happens according to J 3:3
Mat 13:10 And coming near, the disciples said to Him, Why do You speak to them in parables?
Mat 13:11 And answering, He said to them, Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven, but it has not been given to those.
Sight must be given.....
Mat 13:12 For whoever has, to him will be given, and he will have overabundance. But whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.
Mat 13:13 Because of this, I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled on them, which says, "In hearing you will hear and in no way understand, and seeing you will see yet in no way perceive.
Mat 13:15 For the heart of this people has grown fat, and they heard heavily with the ears, and they have closed their eyes, that they not see with the eyes, or hear with the ears, and understand with the heart, and be converted, and I heal them."
Sight and hearing first (John 3:3), then conversion.........
Mat 13:16 But your eyes are blessed because they see; and your ears because they hear.
Mat 13:17 For truly I tell you that many prophets and righteous ones desired to see what you see and did not see, and to hear what you hear and did not hear
[Edited on 4-29-2006 by Scott Bushey]
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
Excellent post Scott. Thank you for taking the time to do that. I always thought John the Baptist was a special exception rather than a "type" so to speak. But I hear what you are saying and I agree.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
The school of thought is that John's situation is not the norm but exceptional; I, along with VanMastricht, Edwards and Gods word, disagree. It can be the norm. Thinking outside the box, along with the passages I present, one could easily perceive the rationale.
Hope that helped.
Hope that helped.
Guys, I am engaged in a running debate on this topic on a Baptist board. Here is a "point and counterpoint" post that I just completed. It is lengthy and I am sure I didn't articulate everything properly. I'm just working within he level of scholarship (if I can even call it that) that I possess. Its a bit lenghty so please forgive me.
Good morning Jack! Saturday morning and sitting her with a cup of Joe before I start my weekend chores.
You mind if we chew on this statement?
You start off by saying that "the choice is God's." Okay, so far so good. You would be invited to my next meeting of the "Calvinist Society." What I am looking for in your statement is whether we define terms the same way. If so, we should be golden. If not, where does the breakdown occur? A question to ask about God's choice: can God's choice be thwarted by man? Or to put it another way, if God decides to do something can man interfere with God's decision? I believe it is an important question because it implicates God's omnipotence more than it violates the free will of man. If God was proven to not be omnipotent who would have more to lose, man or God? God. Man is already in his sins, but God would be proven to be less than what He is. Perish the thought.
Calvinist's believe in what is called the "effectual call." When God calls a person it is tantamount to them coming to faith. In fact, they must come to faith since it has been decreed by God. God may use a process to bring them to repentance or a sudden jolt, but God's will cannot help but be accomplished. You wrote, "the prospective believer must believe willingly." Concur 100%. But how can man believe when the scriptures clearly teach he is A) Spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1) -and- B) Incapable of understanding (1 Cor. 2:14)? If you think about it that is a question that really has to be wrestled with. The Arminian believes that man has within him that divine spark we spoke about. He is not completely dead like Ephesians 2:1 says. He can understand just enough. He is not incapable of understanding as 1 Cor. 2:14 describes. Is there another answer as to how man believes? I think there is. At the risk of being redundant (from other posts) I'll explain it. When God "decides" to call a person to repentance, HE is the one who makes man able to understand. Remember this comment from your last post? "I don't know where Calvinists came up with this doctrine of regeneration before believing" This is how/why Calvinist's belive in regeneration preceeding salvation. In order for a person to spiritually understand the gospel they must pass from death to life. God regenerates (or changes) the heart. By the way, that is really what the word mens. It means to change. Once the heart is changed man is now able to understand the spiritual truth of the gospel. It is at this point that those whom God has called willingly choose God. This is called the ordo salutis (order of salvation). Jack, I happen to believe that regeneration, faith and justification are all part of salvation. Salvation is the term we use to describe someone who has come to faith in Christ. We normally view that as the finished work or the completion of the salvific process. Reformed Christian's wouldn't necessarily disagree although they would say that God first regenerates, man believes by faith and then God justifies. The work is almost instantaneous. It is one of those "blink of an eye" things.
Let's see whether the passages you quoted would shed some light on what Paul wrote in Ephesians 2 and 1 Cor. 2. First the passage in Romans.
Romans 1:19-21 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
For the record, Calvinist's believe that all men are individually responsible for their sin. No one, not those who will persih or those who will come to faith, are exempt from the penalty of sin. Of course the lost will die in their sin and suffer the due penalty while those who come to faith have their sins forgiven by Christ. No debate here. The issue is whether man has an innate knowledge of God that could lead to faith. In this passage Paul is describing men in general. Paul says that "because that which is known about God is evident within them". What is known about God? What is evident with them? Paul goes on to explain. "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." God uses general revelation to reveal Himself to man. Even popular Arminian's teach this. Man gazes at the mountains and knows that there is a God. He sees the stars and realizes that these did not happen by chance. (A paranthetical aside: I believe most atheist's believe there is a God.) The key to this phrase is, "being understood through what has been made". Creation clearly reveals that there is a God. But man (in general) still doesn't believe? Why? "but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened." Because they were still in their sins they were foolish and there heart was darkened. I believe that every person has an innate knowledge of God, but not unto salvation. And in context this passage in Romans is not written to give men hope but to show the hopeless condition of man. Now, how about the passage in John?
( another paranthetical aside. Jack, I know that it seems I have an answer for everything. I hope you don't take it that way. The reason that I write with such conviction is that I believe these things to be true. I am convinced by what I have learned from scripture. It is not boasting or arrogance, it simply is a conviction of the truth. If not said I can see where black and white comments can be seen as arrogant or condescending.)
John 3:19-20 19 "And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
I agree that Jesus is the light. No problem with that. Why do men love the darkeness rather than the light? Because their deeds are evil. Why are their deeds evil? Evil deeds spring forth from an evil heart. Genesis 6:5 describes the generation of Noah as having evil in their hearts continuously. An important question to ask is, "why is man evil?" Is man evil because he commits evil deeds, or is man evil because his nature is evil? We have to be careful how we answer this question. If we say, "Man is evil because he commits evil deeds." then we have strayed into the Pelagian heresy. Pelagiaus taught that man was born with a clean slate and could lead a sinless life. Pelagius would have agreed that the odds were stacked against it, but he believed it was true. He denied original sin. If we say, "Man is evil because his nature is evil." then we are agreeing with the church orthodoxy that man does have a fallen nature caused by the sin of Adam. Here is a question: if a person dies in their sin and goes to hell, is their nature completely fallen? At that point even the Arminian would say, "yes." But even in that fallen nature they will have a knowledge of God. Philippians says, Philippians 2:10-11 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. While not believing and possessing a completely fallen and sinful nature, the sinner in torment will still have a knowledge of God. It is catch 22. Man hates the light because he is evil (fallen). Man commits evil acts and therefore hates the light. Both are equally true.
Jack, you quoted a passage that makes up the content of many of prayers to God. I can agree with Paul when he wrote, Romans 7:24 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? The story in Mark 9 is about a man who's son is possessed by a demon. The fathers statement in Mark 9:24 has more to do with his lack of faith that God can heal than it does in his believing Jesus from within his fallen nature. The man said, "I believe." What was he believing in? It can be argued that he believed in Jesus, that he had faith in Him. Was it salvific faith? It could have been. Or it could have been this type of faith, "I believe you are a great teacher and I have heard of the many miracles you have performed. I brought my son to you for healing but I really don't know if you can do it." I lean more towards the former, that this man believed on Christ through faith. I just don't see where this passage teaches that man has a innate knowledge of God that allows him to believe by faith.
We're back to my earlier comments. Man believes because God changes the heart and makes it possible for him to believe. Abram believed God because God first called Abram when he was in Mesopatamia. The emphasis was on God's calling, not Abram's obedience or belief.
Jack, I covered this earlier but I couldn't resist linking you last paragraph with this earlier statment you made:
Good discussion. THIS is the type of debate that is fruitful. We may still not agree but we are engaged in searching out the scriptures, "to see if these things are so."
[Edited on 4-29-2006 by BaptistInCrisis]
Good morning Jack! Saturday morning and sitting her with a cup of Joe before I start my weekend chores.
You mind if we chew on this statement?
You start off by saying that "the choice is God's." Okay, so far so good. You would be invited to my next meeting of the "Calvinist Society." What I am looking for in your statement is whether we define terms the same way. If so, we should be golden. If not, where does the breakdown occur? A question to ask about God's choice: can God's choice be thwarted by man? Or to put it another way, if God decides to do something can man interfere with God's decision? I believe it is an important question because it implicates God's omnipotence more than it violates the free will of man. If God was proven to not be omnipotent who would have more to lose, man or God? God. Man is already in his sins, but God would be proven to be less than what He is. Perish the thought.
Calvinist's believe in what is called the "effectual call." When God calls a person it is tantamount to them coming to faith. In fact, they must come to faith since it has been decreed by God. God may use a process to bring them to repentance or a sudden jolt, but God's will cannot help but be accomplished. You wrote, "the prospective believer must believe willingly." Concur 100%. But how can man believe when the scriptures clearly teach he is A) Spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1) -and- B) Incapable of understanding (1 Cor. 2:14)? If you think about it that is a question that really has to be wrestled with. The Arminian believes that man has within him that divine spark we spoke about. He is not completely dead like Ephesians 2:1 says. He can understand just enough. He is not incapable of understanding as 1 Cor. 2:14 describes. Is there another answer as to how man believes? I think there is. At the risk of being redundant (from other posts) I'll explain it. When God "decides" to call a person to repentance, HE is the one who makes man able to understand. Remember this comment from your last post? "I don't know where Calvinists came up with this doctrine of regeneration before believing" This is how/why Calvinist's belive in regeneration preceeding salvation. In order for a person to spiritually understand the gospel they must pass from death to life. God regenerates (or changes) the heart. By the way, that is really what the word mens. It means to change. Once the heart is changed man is now able to understand the spiritual truth of the gospel. It is at this point that those whom God has called willingly choose God. This is called the ordo salutis (order of salvation). Jack, I happen to believe that regeneration, faith and justification are all part of salvation. Salvation is the term we use to describe someone who has come to faith in Christ. We normally view that as the finished work or the completion of the salvific process. Reformed Christian's wouldn't necessarily disagree although they would say that God first regenerates, man believes by faith and then God justifies. The work is almost instantaneous. It is one of those "blink of an eye" things.
Let's see whether the passages you quoted would shed some light on what Paul wrote in Ephesians 2 and 1 Cor. 2. First the passage in Romans.
Romans 1:19-21 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
For the record, Calvinist's believe that all men are individually responsible for their sin. No one, not those who will persih or those who will come to faith, are exempt from the penalty of sin. Of course the lost will die in their sin and suffer the due penalty while those who come to faith have their sins forgiven by Christ. No debate here. The issue is whether man has an innate knowledge of God that could lead to faith. In this passage Paul is describing men in general. Paul says that "because that which is known about God is evident within them". What is known about God? What is evident with them? Paul goes on to explain. "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." God uses general revelation to reveal Himself to man. Even popular Arminian's teach this. Man gazes at the mountains and knows that there is a God. He sees the stars and realizes that these did not happen by chance. (A paranthetical aside: I believe most atheist's believe there is a God.) The key to this phrase is, "being understood through what has been made". Creation clearly reveals that there is a God. But man (in general) still doesn't believe? Why? "but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened." Because they were still in their sins they were foolish and there heart was darkened. I believe that every person has an innate knowledge of God, but not unto salvation. And in context this passage in Romans is not written to give men hope but to show the hopeless condition of man. Now, how about the passage in John?
( another paranthetical aside. Jack, I know that it seems I have an answer for everything. I hope you don't take it that way. The reason that I write with such conviction is that I believe these things to be true. I am convinced by what I have learned from scripture. It is not boasting or arrogance, it simply is a conviction of the truth. If not said I can see where black and white comments can be seen as arrogant or condescending.)
John 3:19-20 19 "And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
I agree that Jesus is the light. No problem with that. Why do men love the darkeness rather than the light? Because their deeds are evil. Why are their deeds evil? Evil deeds spring forth from an evil heart. Genesis 6:5 describes the generation of Noah as having evil in their hearts continuously. An important question to ask is, "why is man evil?" Is man evil because he commits evil deeds, or is man evil because his nature is evil? We have to be careful how we answer this question. If we say, "Man is evil because he commits evil deeds." then we have strayed into the Pelagian heresy. Pelagiaus taught that man was born with a clean slate and could lead a sinless life. Pelagius would have agreed that the odds were stacked against it, but he believed it was true. He denied original sin. If we say, "Man is evil because his nature is evil." then we are agreeing with the church orthodoxy that man does have a fallen nature caused by the sin of Adam. Here is a question: if a person dies in their sin and goes to hell, is their nature completely fallen? At that point even the Arminian would say, "yes." But even in that fallen nature they will have a knowledge of God. Philippians says, Philippians 2:10-11 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. While not believing and possessing a completely fallen and sinful nature, the sinner in torment will still have a knowledge of God. It is catch 22. Man hates the light because he is evil (fallen). Man commits evil acts and therefore hates the light. Both are equally true.
Jack, you quoted a passage that makes up the content of many of prayers to God. I can agree with Paul when he wrote, Romans 7:24 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? The story in Mark 9 is about a man who's son is possessed by a demon. The fathers statement in Mark 9:24 has more to do with his lack of faith that God can heal than it does in his believing Jesus from within his fallen nature. The man said, "I believe." What was he believing in? It can be argued that he believed in Jesus, that he had faith in Him. Was it salvific faith? It could have been. Or it could have been this type of faith, "I believe you are a great teacher and I have heard of the many miracles you have performed. I brought my son to you for healing but I really don't know if you can do it." I lean more towards the former, that this man believed on Christ through faith. I just don't see where this passage teaches that man has a innate knowledge of God that allows him to believe by faith.
We're back to my earlier comments. Man believes because God changes the heart and makes it possible for him to believe. Abram believed God because God first called Abram when he was in Mesopatamia. The emphasis was on God's calling, not Abram's obedience or belief.
Jack, I covered this earlier but I couldn't resist linking you last paragraph with this earlier statment you made:
Good discussion. THIS is the type of debate that is fruitful. We may still not agree but we are engaged in searching out the scriptures, "to see if these things are so."
[Edited on 4-29-2006 by BaptistInCrisis]
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Bill,
It is the boards protocol not to post other discussions from other boards.
Is this your quote?
Have you read my post above; blindness can not see anything. dead men are dead as door nails; much like Lazarus. They have no faith to exercise anything; they stinketh! Regeneration allows men to see. That sight brings truth to the heart as the gospel is proclaimed. Truth allows for belief.
[Edited on 4-29-2006 by Scott Bushey]
It is the boards protocol not to post other discussions from other boards.
Is this your quote?
Have you read my post above; blindness can not see anything. dead men are dead as door nails; much like Lazarus. They have no faith to exercise anything; they stinketh! Regeneration allows men to see. That sight brings truth to the heart as the gospel is proclaimed. Truth allows for belief.
[Edited on 4-29-2006 by Scott Bushey]
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