Relationship between purpose, eternal accountability, temporal behavior

[yoyoceramic]

Hi everyone, could you please help me evaluate the following statement I came across today:

Why Obey?

All people everywhere evaluate whether or not they will obey authoirty when they do not want to obey, on the basis of perceived cost: If you believe the cost of obedience is higher than disobedience, you will disobey and vice versa.

This phenomenon applies when you do not want to obey. When you are in agreement with authority you happily comply. In this we learn that love motivates you when you are in agreement, but proves to be an inadequate motivator when you are in disagreement. When you disagree, you obey because you fear the price of disobedience. There can be no authority in any sphere without fear.

You cannot have a biblical purpose for living without believing in eternal accountability for temporal behavior. If you do not believe there is eternal accountability for temporal behavior, you will have no compelling reason to fear God. If you do not fear God you will have no compelling reason to submit to Him when you disagree.
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What are your thoughts and reactions? Do the conclusions reached follow the premise? Is this theologically sound?

 

[MLCOPE2]

I think the argument is flawed in viewing obedience as needing a reason as opposed to being a responsibility. Yes we will give account of the things that we do (2 Cor. 5:10; Rom. 14:12) but that reason does not negate the fact that we have a responsibility, nay a command (Rom. 1:5; 1 Pet 1:2), to obey God's word which includes obedience to those who are in authority over us. Therefore responsibility, not reason, is our motivation for obedience.

 

[Grafted In]

Jesus says, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." Duty, fear of punishment, and the hope of reward will all produce a modicum of obedience. But, only love compels and constrains the heart to fruitful obedience.

 

[Gryphonette]

It's not a bit theologically sound. It certainly sounds reasonable and logical, but then the gospel is foolishness to those without the heart and mind of Christ. Christians obey (as best they can) out of gratitude and love, not out of fright.

Well, the notion of standing without any crowns to cast at the feet of the Lamb when the time comes, instead trying to surreptitiously snuff out the smoldering bits around my feet and ankles (having escaped through the flames, so to speak), does give me pause. ;^)

 

[TeachingTulip]

It's not a bit theologically sound. It certainly sounds reasonable and logical, but then the gospel is foolishness to those without the heart and mind of Christ.

Amen and amen.

Christians obey (as best they can) out of gratitude and love, not out of fright.

Indeed, and not out of expectation of any kind of reward, either!

Well, the notion of standing without any crowns to cast at the feet of the Lamb when the time comes, instead trying to surreptitiously snuff out the smoldering bits around my feet and ankles (having escaped through the flames, so to speak), does give me pause. ;^)

Our "crowns" will be many, earned by Christ Himself . . . working in us, His humble servants and instruments . . .gaining souls through our faithful proclamation of the Gospel.

"As it is written, 'How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace; who bring glad tidings of good things!'" Romans 10:15

 

[Scott1]

I think Scripture teaches us that we basically obey because God has changed our nature so that we can now, willingly do so- with both right inward and outward motivation.

Scripture also tells us to "be afraid" of disobeying a holy God.

I would concede that obedience born of love is, in the end more powerful. But obedience because of fear of chastisement and accountability is also very powerful, so I think it is right to say both are motivations for obedience.

Scripture teaches both.

Regarding the latter, there are many Scriptures, including:

Philippians 2:12

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter XV
Of Repentance unto Life

I. Repentance unto life is an evangelical grace,[1] the doctrine whereof is to be preached by every minister of the Gospel, as well as that of faith in Christ.[2]

II. By it, a sinner, out of the sight and sense not only of the danger, but also of the filthiness and odiousness of his sins, as contrary to the holy nature, and righteous law of God; and upon the apprehension of His mercy in Christ to such as are penitent, so grieves for, and hates his sins, as to turn from them all unto God,[3] purposing and endeavouring to walk with Him in all the ways of His commandments.[4]

 

[Peairtach]

Christians do obey from imperfect and mixed motives aswell as pure motives, because they are not perfect in this life. Therefore none of the truly good works which we are able to do from a new motive of love for the true God are perfect in this life, and must be offered up to the Lord through the blood of Christ. We are all Melchisedekian priests and Christ is our Melchisedekian Great High Priest.

The hope of reward is held out as a motive in the Bible. I don't see how it can be wrong to be motivated by the reward, especially when at the centre of the reward of Heaven is more of communion with God in Christ. Is it wrong to desire more of that?

Jesus Himself had a view towards the reward and He was completely godly, righteous and pure in His motives. We are going into super-spirituality if we deny that Christians should not be motivated by the reward. We can start to think we are better than other Christians who do what they do with an eye towards the reward of Heaven.

"We are more spiritual than other Christians. We would obey God even if He was to give us no reward at the end of life, or even cast us into Hell, or even if our communion with Christ would cease at the end of our time on Earth!" This is going into hyper, gnostic and antinomian spirituality.

looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:2, ESV)

It's difficult to make out what soundness if any is in the quote in the OP, since he's speaking in such generalities and there are no Scripture references.

Our motives will be only perfectly honed at death. It is antinomians and some dispensationalists that tend to say that it is morally wrong or inferior for the Christian to obey any biblical command out of a sense of duty or reward rather than out of a sense pure, unadulterated privilege and love to God and Man.

God's Word never says that doing something out of a proper sense of duty to God or with a proper eye to the reward is morally wrong or inferior.

True love for God and a true sense of duty to obey His commandments coincide sweetly.

True heart obedience to God by the believer and the eternal reward also coincide. It would be morally wrong for God to cast someone He has saved in Christ into Hell.

Any truly good works wrought by the believer can be traced to the work of God's grace in his life. But God will not fail to reward them.

If it was not for grace we would have nothing and no rewards of any kind. It is only of God's grace that a man can work and earn a salary. It's only of God's grace through Christ's life and death that a man can be justified for Heaven.

It's only of God's grace that a man can do truly good works in his sanctification that God can reward. To deny this is not orthodox Reformed teaching or the teaching of the WCF but to stray into antinomian hyper-"Calvinism"

If we find it strange that God would reward our good works that were produced by His sanctifying grace in us, and we find that difficult to reconcile with the fact that we receive Heaven itself purely on the basis of Christ's work, well there are many things in Scripture that are beyond our tiny and tidy minds.

No-one will boast about their works or rewards in Heaven, because they are all of God's grace, and sin will free us of boasting. If people weren't sinners they wouldn't boast of their temporal works/temporal rewards while down here, because it is all of grace, either common or saving grace.

What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it? (I Cor 4:7, ESV)

Whatever the rewards involve, everyone will just be happy to be in Heaven with Christ.

In a sense, anyway, we already have all things in Christ. We just haven't entered into our full possession of all things.

For all things are yours; Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; (I Cor 3:21-22)

 

[yoyoceramic]

Thanks to everyone for the responses. I think the last few posts prior to this one we got sidetracked on eternal rewards, whereas I was most interested in the link between fear and obedience. I appreciate the thoughtful answers you all rendered. I am interested specifically in MLCOPE2's statement:

I think the argument is flawed in viewing obedience as needing a reason as opposed to being a responsibility.

Obedience becomes part of the Chrisitan nature, and thus finding reasons to obey is futile. However, I do not discount that eternal reward and future grace can be helps and motivation for the Christian to 'work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good.."

 

[Peairtach]

In a sense the true Christian's fear should only be a "fear of reverence" rather than an "angst-ridden fear" because if the person has assurance of faith he/she knows that she is not going to be lost but go to Heaven, leaving aside the Q of rewards.

"Perfect love casts out fear", but none of us are made perfect in love in this life, otherwise we would be sinless. In doing God's will also, it is not just God that we have to fear but the consequences of obedience from Satan and the World and - even if we were sinless, and did not have the "flesh"/the fallen nature - the humanly sensitive body and mind.

But the New Testament sometimes encourages people, not only to look at themselves as those who have made their calling and election sure and so know that they are elect and secure, but also to look at themselves as Christians professing the faith and being capable of falling from that position, as Christians/"Christians" are, even to the point of being lost, if our profession of faith isn't the real deal.

This latter, additional, perspective must be used by the Spirit of God (or it wouldn't be in the Bible) to keep the elect on the straight and narrow, and encourage other false professors to get right with God, and their may be an amount of angst-style fear involved, even among those who are elect and yet lack full assurance of faith.

There may also be a degree of warning to the unelect professor to increase his guiltiness in his unbelief, through these warnings to Christians viewed as professing Christians.

 

[Scott1]

Richard Tallach
In a sense the true Christian's fear should only be a "fear of reverence" rather than an "angst-ridden fear" because if the person has assurance of faith he/she knows that she is not going to be lost but go to Heaven, leaving aside the Q of rewards.

Yes, I think that is true in terms of salvation- we ought not "fear" that we will lose our salvation. Scripture tells us as we had nothing to do with gaining it, we cannot lose it. That ought provide tremendous assurance, born witness of through the Word and by the Spirit.

But I think in terms of disobedience, Scripture would tell us to "fear" disobeying God. There seems to me much of this in Scripture, the Psalms, for example.

What do we fear?

As believers, we ought fear God's chastisement, the misery that disobedience brings in this life (not that we fear losing our relationship with God, nor His salvation).

I think also we include fear of losing reward (again, not salvation) at the judgment seat of Christ. As "good works" are commended in the Kingdom of God, somehow we also "suffer loss" for disobedience.

In the past generation, there was much more talk of "fearing God" than in this.

Yes, I think believers ought fear God in their disobedience, and that ought motivate them to do when right when sin and self centeredness tempt them to go their own way, and not His way.

Proverbs 3

7Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

8It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

9Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:

10So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

11My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:

12For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

13Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

14For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.

But all this to say also, there really is no higher motive for obedience than love- because love seeks not its own.

---------- Post added at 09:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:45 PM ----------

The Westminster Larger Catechism is also instructive on this point:

Question 28: What are the punishments of sin in this world?

Answer: The punishments of sin in this world are either inward, as blindness of mind, a reprobate sense, strong delusions, hardness of heart, horror of conscience, and vile affections; or outward, as the curse of God upon the creatures for our sakes, and all other evils that befall us in our bodies,names, estates, relations, and employments; together with death itself.

As I understand it, all these consequences of "sin in this world" can be experienced by believers and nonbelievers.

Clearly, we are redeemed out of eternal judgment for them, we are not left to perish in them, but we will may suffer for them in this life.

That seems another reason to obey when our fallen sin prone natures would delight in disobeying our God, and take for granted His mercy and kindness.

Ecclesiastes 12

13Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

 

[Peairtach]

We may sometimes sin so badly that we may lose our assurance of faith or doubt that we were ever saved.

in Psalm 51, David asks God not to take His Holy Spirit away, not because it is possible for a believer in the OT or NT to lose the Holy Spirit, but because the sense of God's felt presence can be removed, and because the believer may seriously doubt that he ever truly knew God when he is convicted, or may feel that whatever relationship he had with God is in danger and he doesn't want to lose it.

Of course if true believers are fully assured of their own salvation, they may still feel angst when they sin, angst for the souls of their (unbelieving) relatives, and angst for those around them who profess to be believers, and may or may not be. Christ was a man of sorrows and aquainted with grief.