Revelation 6:6 - PLEASE HELP

[Tirian]

Hi all,

I am really struggling to get my head around this verse. Is thie is the past, or reflective of all of time on earth, or some future event?

6 Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, “Two pounds[a] of wheat for a day’s wages, and six pounds[c] of barley for a day’s wages,[d] and do not damage the oil and the wine!”

Why not the oil and the wine? I've read many commentaries on it and listened to some audio but it all ends up becoming Dispensational.

Any insight would be GREATLY appreciated.

Thanks folks,
Matt

 

[RamistThomist]

Not all futurist readings are dispensationalist. I am a futurist, but not Dispensational. From my own perspective, if you interpret it as a literal, sequential event that will actually happen, you are left with something like a futurist reading (unless you want to pick some part of world history that suffered famine and war, but that take has problems, too).

 

[Fogetaboutit]

I heard a few commentaries from the idealist perspective which made sense to me, this is depicting that until Christ's return there will be famines and financial hard times for many but at the same time there will always be rich people which are represented by the "wine and the oil" which are symbols of abundance.

 

[Bethel]

In Art Azurdia's sermons on Revelation, he talks about the Lamb's judgment shown by the four horses: white=conquest, red=persecution, black=famine, and pale=death. The horseman on the black horse has a pair of balances in his hand; balances not of judgment, but of measurement. Inflation is shown by the cost of one measure of wheat or three measures of barley both being one day's wage. The oil and wine are excluded at this time because the judgment is restricted by the Lamb, but it is His judgment in the form of famine. The judgment is not comprehensive...yet.

As for the timing, I believe that Dr. Azurdia said he was leaning amil at the very end of his sermon series--I could be wrong because it's been a couple of years since I listened to the complete series. Therefore, the world has experienced, does experience, and will continue to experience restricted famine until Christ returns when the final Judgment will occur.

If interested, you can find his sermon series on Revelation here (at the bottom of the page): Spirit Empowered Preaching

I hope this helps.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Matt, I think Bethel's pointing you to Azurdia's sermons is a good thing; he has an 81-sermon mp3 series on Revelation. He is amil; his prof in seminary was Dennis E. Johnson who wrote the excellent amil-oriented commentary, Triumph of the Lamb. Another excellent book (also modified idealist and amil) is Wm Hendriksen's More than Conquerors. The famines are often experienced more acutely by the Christians as they are – all through the age – economically disadvantaged as a result of their witness, although famines and disease follow war, and are judgments on the world in general, intensifying toward the end.

 

[Turtle]

Hi all,

I am really struggling to get my head around this verse. Is thie is the past, or reflective of all of time on earth, or some future event?

6 Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, “Two pounds[a] of wheat for a day’s wages, and six pounds[c] of barley for a day’s wages,[d] and do not damage the oil and the wine!”

Why not the oil and the wine? I've read many commentaries on it and listened to some audio but it all ends up becoming Dispensational.

Any insight would be GREATLY appreciated.

Thanks folks,
Matt

Hi Matt,

There exists no limit to the number of conjectures that can be made about the purpose of the words "oil and wine," used here in 6:6, and this is especially so if we rely on infusing their meaning from sources extraneous to the book of Revelation. If there exists a logical basis of their use from within the book of Revelation then I think that would be preferable.

I would suggest that the "oil and wine" mentioned in 6:6 is an abbreviated expression of the longer list of all the merchandise mentioned in Chapter 18. The oil and wine are found within the context of buying and selling here in chapter 6 and in chapter 18. Both passages describe systems of oppression and prosperity, 6:6 concisely and Ch 18 with much more detail. In 18:14, oil and wine are included among "the fruits", "all things dainty and goodly".. "the merchandise"... the merchandise that fueled the commerce wherein the merchants of the earth waxed rich, through the abundance of her delicacies, and the kings of the earth lived deliciously with her in fornication (18:3,9). But also found in her was the blood of saints, prophets, and all that were slain on the earth.

It seems to me that the voice in 6:6 is expressing a command to establish the economic system of oppression and prosperity wherein the woman glorifies herself, lives deliciously in fornication, wins the praise of all the merchants of the earth, and declares she sits as a queen and no widow. The system enables that great city that reigns over the kings of the earth, the woman he saw sit upon a scarlet colored beast. It is worth noting that after "hurt not the oil and wine" of the third seal, next comes the fourth and fifth seal... death and hell followed after him. He had power to kill a fourth part of the earth, and under the altar was seen the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held.

If this parallel use of "oil and wine" is so, (and its just my opinion) the voice commanding the establishment of such a system of commerce in 6:6 can be contrasted with the voice commanding his people to come out of her in 18:4. Her "oil and wine" will be hurt... she will be utterly burned with fire, the fruits her soul lusted after will be departed from her, and found no more at all. Her merchandise will be destroyed, her commerce will cease, and her reign will end. But of the Holy Jerusalem, the Lamb's wife, she will have a tree of life with twelve manner of fruits, with leaves for the healing of the nations, a pure rive of water of life from which whosoever will may drink freely, and they shall reign for ever and ever. The harlot reigns in fornication and is founded upon the lust of those who deal in her merchandise. The wife reigns in marriage and has a foundation of twelve precious stones, a city who's builder and architect is God.

I think that is a fair explanation of how "hurt not the oil and wine" makes sense within the text. It really means it. Don't hurt the merchandise that is foundational to the woman, that great city that reigns over the earth. In the beginning her oil and wine are not hurt, but in the end it is departed from her.

Did the city exist? Does it exist? Will it be future? That is a can of worms!

For now I'll just stick with an explanation of how oil and wine fit together in the context, without having to go outside of Revelation for an explanation.



Bryan
Tampa
PCA

 

[charispistis]

Here is David Chilton's take on verses 5 and 6, from his commentary on the book of Revelation.

5-6 Following on the heels of war is the third angelic
rider, on a black horse, holding a pair of scales in his
hand, a symbol of famine from the prophecy of Ezekiel,
in which the starving inhabitants of Jerusalem were
forced to weigh their food carefully (Ezek. 4:10). This
Horseman brings economic hardship, a situation
described as completely chaotic. A voice from the
center of the living creatures – i.e., from God’s Throne
– says: A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three
quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the
oil and the wine. This curse thus means a shortage of
the necessary staples – a measure of wheat rising to
more than 1000% of its former price, consuming an
entire day’s wages,12 so that a man’s entire labor is spent
in obtaining food. This is God’s curse on men whenever
they rebel: The land itself spews them out (Lev. 18:24-
28; Isa. 24). The Curse devours productivity in every
area, and the ungodly culture perishes through
starvation, disease, and oppression (Deut. 28:15-34).
This is how God controls the wicked: They must spend
so much time just surviving that they are unable to
exercise ungodly dominion over the earth. In the long
run, this is the history of every culture that departs from
God’s Word.13
Josephus describes the frantic search for food during the
final siege: “As the famine grew worse, the frenzy of the
insurgents kept pace with it, and every day both these
horrors burned more fiercely. For, since nowhere was
grain to be seen, men would break into houses, and if
they found some they mistreated the occupants for
having denied their possession of it; if they found none,
they tortured them as if they had concealed it more
carefully. Proof whether they had food or not was
provided by the physical appearance of the wretches;
those still in good condition were deemed to be well
provided with food, while those who were already
wasting away were passed over, for it seemed pointless
to kill persons who would soon die of starvation. Many
secretly bartered their possessions for a single measure
of wheat if they happened to be rich, barley if they were
poor. Then they shut themselves up in the darkest
corners of their houses; in the extremity of hunger some
even ate their grain underground, while others baked it,
guided by necessity and fear. Nowhere was a table laid
– the food was snatched half-cooked from the fire and
torn into pieces.”14
On the other hand, however, in this specific curse on
Jerusalem the luxuries of oil and wine are unaffected by
the general price rise; the black Horseman is forbidden
to touch them. The scales are the sign of Libra,
spanning September and October; Farrer surmises that
if the grain harvest failed in April and May, “men might
begin to tighten their belts in October. They would
then be just finishing the fruit-gathering, and might
observe the irony of nature, that grapes and olives had
gone unscathed; of the traditional triad corn, wine, and
oil, corn, at a pinch, will keep you alive without the
other two, but not they without the corn.”15 In all
likelihood, another dimension of this expression’s
import is that God’s messengers of destruction are kept
from harming the righteous: Scripture often speaks of
God’s blessings upon the righteous in terms of oil and
wine (cf. Ps. 104:15); and, of course, oil and wine are
used in the rites of the Church (James 5:14-15; 1 Cor.
11:25). This would then parallel those other passages in
which the godly are protected from destruction (cf.
7:3).

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

The judgment of God is limited, being patient until the final judgment. Thus, while famine will impact grains, it will have limited effect on oil and wine. That said, I could also see how the verse teaches us that the staples used for making bread (oil) and keeping water pure (wine) are now extravagences during famine that must be protected.

 

[Cymro]

This portion is connected to the judgments in Zechariah, and shows that the judgments of God are not confined
to a given period of history, but rather the providence of God working throughout history. His horsemen and charioteers
are ever at work dashing the schemes of men, and raising up powers and then humbling them to the dust.
The references to food which many would describe as "food at famine prices," is to exaggerate the text. Indeed the use of measures in the
Bible and the prices ,put acquisition within the reach of every one. Again we must link up an Old Testament incident in (2 Kings 7;1) "Hear ye the word of the Lord: thus saith the Lord tomorrow about this time shall a measure of fine flower be sold for a shekel, and 2 measures of barley for a shekel, in the gate
of Samaria."
The famine struck populace of the besieged city were to be fed with abundance the very next day,by the intervention of God. They went out of the city
and reaped the spoils of the enemy. The food actually is cheaper in Revelation than in Kings. And the riding forth of the horsemen is to disappoint the
enemy and deliver the people of God.
I believe Revelation is to be spiritually understood. Wheat, barley, oil and wine "symbolises spiritual values" The spirit and the word providing sustenance
even in dark days. To quote, "The wicked restrained and those who hunger and thirst after righteousness will be well filled."