Revival in China?

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Originally posted by jaybird0827
Ken S,

Thank you for this informative picture of the church in China, Hong Kong, and Macau. (Seems you lost part of your post at the end

it's edited
 
Originally posted by jaybird0827
Ken S,

Thank you for this informative picture of the church in China, Hong Kong, and Macau. (Seems you lost part of your post at the end).

It is clear that we need confessional, reformed work in China, Hong Kong, Macau, the former iron curtain countries, and the third world, as well as North America.

Only the historic, confessional, reformed understanding of Scripture will stand up to and refute the errors of liberalism, modernism, arminianism, the Three-Self Patriotic Movement, Roman Catholicism, the evangellyfish churches, the charismatic movement, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, fundamentalism, dispensationalism, and (sorry) Dave Hunt.

i guess i've wasted all the time of writing for you gentlemen。

So what's wrong with Dave Hunt? Anyone bother to explain to me? And what is wrong with dispensationalism and what does that to do with Dave Hunt?

I have very limited theology knowledge. The only theology I know best, in my poor theology knowledge, is Calvinism. As for dispensationalism, i don't know much about it, but i just clearly know that we are very close to the end time, that Jesus indeed will be back soon. I know it, I can feel it, because the signs described in the Gospel of Mathew reminds me, making me alert, and the Holy Spirit make me recall the scripture whenever i hear news about disasters, abnormal climate change and all those frequent earthquakes, and not to mention all those heretic movements coming from the west and the fact that global christian churches become more and more rebelliouse. No matter what is wrong with dispensationalism, I am still sure that these signs have not went wrong.

[Edited on 17-9-2006 by Ken S.]
 
Dave Hunt is a laughing butt here.

But I appreciate Ken's zeal for chruches in China.

We need more reformed literature translated into Chinese.
 
Originally posted by duncan001
Dave Hunt is a laughing butt here......

it is very arrogant to say so without showing evidences.

If you people know something about Dave Hunt which i do not know, you should explain to me instead of simply making comments in just one or two words. This is not the right way of helping your brothers in Lord. Imagine, how would you feel if i say "John Calvin is just a brutal murderer, don't believe him" ?
What is the right way of helping the brothers who have mis-believed Calvin the brutal murderer? And what if Calvin has nothing to do with brutality at all?

I'm not here to accuse him and the Reformed, in fact I see myself as a reformed. I mean how am i supposed to correct my belief that has infected Dave Hunt gene if I don't even know what his mistakes are? Are you guys using the right way of helping this brother(me) out?! And are you guys sure you are really right when you comment Dave Hunt?

Frankly I'm already trying to behave myself and be very careful in choosing which word to use and which not.

[Edited on 17-9-2006 by Ken S.]

[Edited on 17-9-2006 by Ken S.]

[Edited on 17-9-2006 by Ken S.]
 
Ken -- Thank you very much for your input, brother. I think there is a great "information gap" between the church in China and the church in the West that goes two ways. Much more information is needed on both sides, "as iron sharpens iron." Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and God bless!

[Edited on 9-17-2006 by VirginiaHuguenot]
 
Originally posted by duncan001
Dave Hunt is a laughing butt here.

But I appreciate Ken's zeal for chruches in China.

We need more reformed literature translated into Chinese.

Ken,

I didn't say this against you, if you feel offended, I'm terribly sorry.

I just raised this fact since it seemed to me lots oof people here
were familiar with Dave Hunt.

BTW you could google Dave Hunt and find a lots of info about him.

Have a nice day.
 
Originally posted by Ken S.
Originally posted by duncan001
Dave Hunt is a laughing butt here......

it is very arrogant to say so without showing evidences.

If you people know something about Dave Hunt which i do not know, you should explain to me instead of simply making comments in just one or two words. This is not the right way of helping your brothers in Lord. Imagine, how would you feel if i say "John Calvin is just a brutal murderer, don't believe him" ?
What is the right way of helping the brothers who have mis-believed Calvin the brutal murderer? And what if Calvin has nothing to do with brutality at all?

I'm not here to accuse him and the Reformed, in fact I see myself as a reformed. I mean how am i supposed to correct my belief that has infected Dave Hunt gene if I don't even know what his mistakes are? Are you guys using the right way of helping this brother(me) out?! And are you guys sure you are really right when you comment Dave Hunt?

Frankly I'm already trying to behave myself and be very careful in choosing which word to use and which not.

[Edited on 17-9-2006 by Ken S.]

[Edited on 17-9-2006 by Ken S.]

[Edited on 17-9-2006 by Ken S.]

Dave Hunt has come close to saying that Calvin and Augustine are burning in hell due to their theology. Even if Hunt may be accurate in his views on Rome--and I really don't think he is--that does not validate his theology. It just means that every once and a while, the worst of em can be right. Kind of like a broken clock is right twice a day.

If you want to insult a Romanist (and in our witnessing with them we will get further with them by sticking to the basic disagreements rather than trying to insult their intelligence), quote Dave Hunt. And in doing so, you will lose that chance to witness to them.
 
Just a quick note on the earlier, pre-Dave Hunt portion of the discussion:

"Ji du jiao" is Christian
"Tian fu jiao" is Catholic
"Ji du tu" is also Christian, which I believe is saying that you are a disciple of Christ (as "tu di" is disciple and they often say only half a word to represent the whole)

I am not sure of the theology in the house churches around here, I will ask.

The Three-Self Church is indeed government controlled and more liberal but some people choose to work through them as they are then witnessing to government officials as well, a truly unreached and lost crowd.
 
Originally posted by Draught Horse
Originally posted by Ken S.
Originally posted by duncan001
Dave Hunt is a laughing butt here......

it is very arrogant to say so without showing evidences.

If you people know something about Dave Hunt which i do not know, you should explain to me instead of simply making comments in just one or two words. This is not the right way of helping your brothers in Lord. Imagine, how would you feel if i say "John Calvin is just a brutal murderer, don't believe him" ?
What is the right way of helping the brothers who have mis-believed Calvin the brutal murderer? And what if Calvin has nothing to do with brutality at all?

I'm not here to accuse him and the Reformed, in fact I see myself as a reformed. I mean how am i supposed to correct my belief that has infected Dave Hunt gene if I don't even know what his mistakes are? Are you guys using the right way of helping this brother(me) out?! And are you guys sure you are really right when you comment Dave Hunt?

Frankly I'm already trying to behave myself and be very careful in choosing which word to use and which not.

[Edited on 17-9-2006 by Ken S.]

[Edited on 17-9-2006 by Ken S.]

[Edited on 17-9-2006 by Ken S.]

Dave Hunt has come close to saying that Calvin and Augustine are burning in hell due to their theology. Even if Hunt may be accurate in his views on Rome--and I really don't think he is--that does not validate his theology. It just means that every once and a while, the worst of em can be right. Kind of like a broken clock is right twice a day.

If you want to insult a Romanist (and in our witnessing with them we will get further with them by sticking to the basic disagreements rather than trying to insult their intelligence), quote Dave Hunt. And in doing so, you will lose that chance to witness to them.

No one here is trying to insult the Romanist.
 
Originally posted by kvanlaan
Just a quick note on the earlier, pre-Dave Hunt portion of the discussion:

"Ji du jiao" is Christian
"Tian fu jiao" is Catholic
"Ji du tu" is also Christian, which I believe is saying that you are a disciple of Christ (as "tu di" is disciple and they often say only half a word to represent the whole)

I am not sure of the theology in the house churches around here, I will ask.

The Three-Self Church is indeed government controlled and more liberal but some people choose to work through them as they are then witnessing to government officials as well, a truly unreached and lost crowd.

It is "Tian zhu jiao", it means Catholicism. "jiao" is a chinese character that have a wider range of meanings, but usually means "to teach". It could also means "religion".
"Ji du jiao" means Protestantism.
"Ji du tu" is exactly equivalent to "Christians". When the Ecumenical Roman Catholics getting to use "Christians" calling themselve after the Vatican II, they do actually say they are "Ji du tu". How deceptive.

"ji du tu" shall be seen as a head "ji du"(means Christ), and a tail "tu"(mainly means disciples, students, followers). You're right, "tu" is one of the two chinese characters that make up the word "tu di". You're right that chinese often say only half a word to represent the whole, but it is also because that a single word did have it's own complete/whole meaning when they are first formed in ancient time.

Three-self system is theologically wrong because the head and board of the Three-self Commitee which take charge of all Three-self churches are Liberals. But is the Three-self system politically wrong because they are controlled by the government? In my view, I won't view it that way.
Think about it, does church of Christ in the US really enjoy freedom of religion with the US constitution giving it's country freedom of religion? Or will freedom of religion be lost if one day there is no freedom of religion in the US constitution?

What is a true freedom of belief(religion)?

Can visible powers take away our freedom of belief?
Thinking in the other way: when the American church is offered freedom of religion by constitution, has she really enjoyed and exercised true freedom of belief?

The Three-self church is "politically" wrong not because they are controlled by government but because they do not reject the control measures set up by the government, they have accepted the limitations on preaching and obeying God put by the government.


As for "the Three-Self Church is indeed government controlled and more liberal but some people choose to work through them as they are then witnessing to government officials as well, a truly unreached and lost crowd," staying in Three-self church is already an act of compromise.
These people must obey the measures on Three-self church goers and they will be asked to leave if they do not obey. One of the measures is that church goers shall not preach outside the church building. If one is called by God to go visit sick people and preach to them during the afternoon after the sunday service, he risks violating the Three-self measures on preaching.
A Christian obeying Three-self measures could impossibly follow Jesus and obey callings of the Holy Spirit.

If they leave and "go to" underground church, there may be persecutions, but the persecutions are not as severe as they used to be before, probably and approximately, 1980s.

[Edited on 14-10-2006 by Ken S.]
 
thanks everone, I do know Calvinism has opponents. And I am still in a long progress of finding out what is right and what is not biblical.
One thing I'm absolutely sure of is that men are indeed spiritually dead and they by their very nature hate to repent and obey God. It seems to me that it IS quite true that men are only able to repent AFTER they got regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
So I'm sure the Evangelicals' way of looking at repentance is rather optimistic, too confident in the wills of sinners.


[Edited on 14-10-2006 by Ken S.]
 
God bless you Ken, Kevin and Duncan. I will be thinking of you, and your (and our) Chinese brethren much in the next two weeks as I travel over there. I will especially use that opportunity to pray especially for those of Christ's flock there.

May He richly bless you - and thanks for sharing with us the details of how the Lord is working His sovereign plan in China.

In Him,

dl

[Edited on 10-14-2006 by Cuirassier]
 
Your prayers are always welcome!

What you really don't hear much about are the individual stories here. We have a close friend who, in the late 1960's, was ready to go to high school (here, many stop at middle school as there is a culling as you go up each level of education.)

But as his family was Christian and it was the beginning of the Cultural Revolution, he was sent to the countryside because he was a Believer. He kept 13 laying hens - this is what fed his family. They never ate a single egg, they sold each and every one to buy corn flour (much cheaper) or yams but were hungry most of the time. To this day he won't eat a yam. Anyway, the long and short of it was that his education and chance at a normal life vanished in an instant and he is not bitter, though he is in his 50's and uneducated, unemployed, and with few prospects. Such is God's will for His people. He is a happy, hardworking man.

That takes buckets of forgiveness, I tell you what.

PS - sorry about the mistranslation - I don't know much about the catholic churches here so it was a little off the cuff!
 
I would like to draw people's attention to the set of messages about D.Hunt.
I've been online in discussion groups for awhile. The threads seem to always go into this kind of disagreement, perhaps something about the media brings out differences and a desire to show them. I don't know. but we seldom discuss what we have in common, or disagree to disagree in an agreeable manner. It is a curious phenomena given the gravity of the question: what is happening in the church in China.
is the church orthodox?
or has it's relative isolation from the rest of the world made it full of heresies?
how can we help by sending our good theology books to someone in hong kong?

is it really necessary to end up discussing D.Hunt? is his significance even within a order of magnitude of the question? i don't know. but i see it happening nearly everyday.
 
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