Ok, I have lately been feeling the need to join the military. It is not so much a what-I-want-to-do kind of thing, in fact I am kind of iffy about it. I have been praying about what I should do, considering the gravity of such a decision. So, here is the question, what are all your views on the issue? I know it is a good thing to defend one's country, however, with the subjection to world opinion and the decline in the world today, is it right or wrong for one to volunteer to serve in our military?
Right or Wrong if I Join the Military?
- Thread starter Jonathan
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SolaScriptura
Puritanboard Brimstone
Oh... it is right, all right! Hooah!
There are some really good opportunities to gain some good experience and yes... make money... right now. Their enlistment bonuses are huge (for the Army) in many areas.
However, I think longterm... if you are "iffy" it... I think that the best course of action would be to go to college and get involved in ROTC. THat will expose you to a military environment, with no initial commitment on your behalf... during the summers you can do some great military training (like going to Airborne School!). When it is all over, if you decide that the military is for you then you will enter as an officer... and I can tell you that being an officer is MUCH better than being enlisted.
[Edited on 4-13-2005 by SolaScriptura]
There are some really good opportunities to gain some good experience and yes... make money... right now. Their enlistment bonuses are huge (for the Army) in many areas.
However, I think longterm... if you are "iffy" it... I think that the best course of action would be to go to college and get involved in ROTC. THat will expose you to a military environment, with no initial commitment on your behalf... during the summers you can do some great military training (like going to Airborne School!). When it is all over, if you decide that the military is for you then you will enter as an officer... and I can tell you that being an officer is MUCH better than being enlisted.
[Edited on 4-13-2005 by SolaScriptura]
What about the moral argument for fighting for one's country. For example, I believe Iraq was the right thing to do, also Afghanistan, and would proudly fight in either, however, lets say we get involved in some UN operation in some third world country or something. They want me to wear the blue and white hat... (though I do not see it happening with this oil for money scandal) what do I do in that situation...? I will not wear that cap, no matter what! if I am called to serve in that way, what do I do?
Also, our country is going down hill very fast; is it wrong to fight for a country whose morals are falling apart (though it still maintains many good things)?
Also, our country is going down hill very fast; is it wrong to fight for a country whose morals are falling apart (though it still maintains many good things)?
I love the military. I am a Navy Veteran. I believe the World needs a different kind of soldier though. Our Country along with Europe and to the ends of the earth have no idea there is a Holy Righteous God who is going to judge them the way they don't want to be judged. They have self made Gods that are no God's. Especially in America. Join the Spiritual War.
Matthew 9:36-38 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd. Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
Matthew 9:36-38 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd. Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
As a one who adheres to the Scottish Covenanter principles of political dissent, I believe fervently in patriotism and love of one's country. I am also of the convictions of Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee who served their states and their countries with the highest level of service.
As fan of Tom Clancy, John Wayne and all sorts of war movies and books, I am inspired by the courage and character of soldiers of fiction and history.
I also believe that the oath of loyalty to the Constitution is sinful and thus I could not commend any vocation that requires it as does the military.
I too support the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. I pray for the success and safety of our soldiers every day. They are doing good work for the most part.
I was a supporter of Michael New though in that controversy and I deeply regret the subordination of the US military to the UN (and sometimes NATO) agenda.
Anyone who takes an oath to serve the Constitution and agrees to submit themselves to military discipline (for which I have the highest respect) ought to consider the full implications. It is a decision of the greatest import.
As fan of Tom Clancy, John Wayne and all sorts of war movies and books, I am inspired by the courage and character of soldiers of fiction and history.
I also believe that the oath of loyalty to the Constitution is sinful and thus I could not commend any vocation that requires it as does the military.
I too support the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. I pray for the success and safety of our soldiers every day. They are doing good work for the most part.
I was a supporter of Michael New though in that controversy and I deeply regret the subordination of the US military to the UN (and sometimes NATO) agenda.
Anyone who takes an oath to serve the Constitution and agrees to submit themselves to military discipline (for which I have the highest respect) ought to consider the full implications. It is a decision of the greatest import.
Jonathan and others, with utmost respect, I believe joining the military is sin. The oath of enlistment for the armed forces of the US requires swearing to defend the atheistic constitution. 2nd, the war in Iraq, and most other wars, was an unprovoked act of aggression. Sadaam and Iraq posed no immanent threat. To participate in such wars may be a violation of the 6th commandment. That being said, like Andrew, I admire the courage of our soldiers and haven't a doubt about their intentions. I will provide links later.
Augusta
Puritan Board Doctor
Paul clearly separated the civil magistrate from the church. They have their office exclusive of the church and vice versa. The civil magistrate has been ordained of God to protect the innocent and uphold justice. When they cease to do that then they are in the wrong and their time will be limited. Paul said that they do not bear the sword for nothing. If we resist their authority we resist God because he has placed them there.
Peter the war in Iraq was not unprovoked. It had been in the process of provoking for years but no one did anything about it until GWB came along and saw the threat of terrorism to america and went straight for the first root of it that he had the power to go after. Power given him by the U.N. via no less than 18 resolutions the last one unanimous excepting those later found to be in bed with Saddam. Not to mention Saddam breaking the treaty that he surrendered under.
Not to get sidetracked but here is the text of Romans 13:1-7.
Be Subject to Government
1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
4 FOR IT IS A MINISTER OF GOD TO YOU FOR GOOD. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, AN AVENGER WHO BRINGS WRATH ON THE ONE WHO PRACTICES EVIL.
5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake.
6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.
7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.
I do not see joining the military as anything but honorable. It is a very humble act. It is an act of selflessness.
John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
[Edited on 4-14-2005 by Augusta]
Peter the war in Iraq was not unprovoked. It had been in the process of provoking for years but no one did anything about it until GWB came along and saw the threat of terrorism to america and went straight for the first root of it that he had the power to go after. Power given him by the U.N. via no less than 18 resolutions the last one unanimous excepting those later found to be in bed with Saddam. Not to mention Saddam breaking the treaty that he surrendered under.
Not to get sidetracked but here is the text of Romans 13:1-7.
Be Subject to Government
1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
4 FOR IT IS A MINISTER OF GOD TO YOU FOR GOOD. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, AN AVENGER WHO BRINGS WRATH ON THE ONE WHO PRACTICES EVIL.
5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake.
6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.
7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.
I do not see joining the military as anything but honorable. It is a very humble act. It is an act of selflessness.
John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
[Edited on 4-14-2005 by Augusta]
Bladestunner316
Puritan Board Doctor
I personally wouldnt but then Im not the military type even though I dont agree with both wars were in right now. Im just not into joining the military though some are. Pray about it.
Blade
Blade
Authorised
Puritan Board Freshman
I don't see anything wrong with the oath of enlistment.
I, (state your name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
Basic summary of Romans 13:1-7.
As for swearing to defend the Constitution, what other document do you presume to defend by force? How can you, without logical contradictions, honour those who serve for us while you yourself would never do so, seeing that you believe it is sinful?
Read chapter Twenty-two of the Confession.
(you know which one)
I, (state your name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
Basic summary of Romans 13:1-7.
As for swearing to defend the Constitution, what other document do you presume to defend by force? How can you, without logical contradictions, honour those who serve for us while you yourself would never do so, seeing that you believe it is sinful?
Read chapter Twenty-two of the Confession.
(you know which one)
Bladestunner316
Puritan Board Doctor
Arnt we told by Jesus to not swear by anything? or take oaths etc.... ??
Hampton Roads Confession of Faith
Chapter 22
LEGITIMATE OATHS AND VOWS
"Moreover, I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet
to Corinth."
(2 Corinthians 1:23)
A - Swearing an Oath - Swearing an oath commits the swearer to absolute truthfulness. God Himself, able to swear by none greater than Himself, took an oath. God gave His word, solemnly binding Himself to do what He had said. When an oath is sworn by any person, he or she is calling God to witness his words and to judge him accordingly. Such an oath is to be taken in the plain and commonly understood meaning of the words used, without equivocation or mental reservation.
Exodus 20:7 Hebrews 6:13-17 2 Corinthians 1:23
Deuteronomy 10:20 2 Chronicles 6:22-23 Psalm 24:4
B - Vows - A vow is a sacred promise made to God alone. Whatever is vowed is irrevocable and must be fulfilled regardless of the cost or change in circumstances. Therefore, unscriptural or careless vows should never be made by any follower of Jesus Christ. Examples of unscriptural vows are monastic vows, vows of poverty, vows of celibacy, etc. Jepthah, whose careless vow cost him his posterity, stands forever in Holy Scripture as a warning to those who make careless vows to God. Better not to vow at all, than to vow and not do what has been promised.
Ecclesiastes 5:1-7 Ephesians 4:28 Matthew 19:11
Judges 11:30, 35, 39
C - Cancellation of Vows - Vows may not be made in isolation from God's appointed authority structure. Vows made to God by married women, or by daughters living at home, may be canceled by their husbands and fathers respectively, if they are canceled on the same day he hears them. If he does not cancel them on the same day he learns of them then the vows are binding.
Numbers 30:2-16 1 Samuel 1:11&23
D - Conclusion - In a world where the word of people means little, even under oath, and where sacred vows are disregarded, destroying the very fabric of our civilization, we do well to consider our Christian duty to counter the tide. The unchanging God, who always does exactly what He has spoken, expects His followers to reflect this aspect of His character. Believers should never commit themselves lightly, should be utterly reliable, and should probably make very few vows during their lifetimes. When a vow is made, it is a sacred promise. Under no circumstances may it be revoked. In like manner, the swearing of oaths should be rare for the follower of Jesus whose yes means yes, and whose no means no. However, should the swearing of an oath be required, the Christian may do so without anxiety of conscience. TextThe teaching of Jesus to "swear not at all" must be understood in the context of interpersonal relationships, rather than in courts of law. Likewise, His teaching to "turn the other cheek" has interpersonal relationships for its context, and may not be misused to promote international pacifism. We find it inconceivable that Paul, appointed an Apostle by Jesus Christ, would make vows (Acts 18:18), and swear by God (2 Corinthians 1:23), in violation of his Master's will. Oaths and vows are not forbidden per se in Holy Scripture, but a definite warning is sounded to those who make them carelessly, insincerely, or unscripturally. Men and women will be called to account for their words. Jeremiah 23:10 Romans 12:2 Numbers 23:19
1 Peter 1:15-16 Ecclesiastes 5:2,4 Judges 11:35
Matthew 5:37 Nehemiah 13:25 Matthew 5:34
James 5:12 Matthew 5:39 1 Samuel 15:1-4
Matthew 12:36-37
Back to Table of Contents | Chapter 21 | Chapter 23 |
[Edited on 4-14-2005 by puritancovenanter]
[Edited on 4-14-2005 by puritancovenanter]
Chapter 22
LEGITIMATE OATHS AND VOWS
"Moreover, I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet
to Corinth."
(2 Corinthians 1:23)
A - Swearing an Oath - Swearing an oath commits the swearer to absolute truthfulness. God Himself, able to swear by none greater than Himself, took an oath. God gave His word, solemnly binding Himself to do what He had said. When an oath is sworn by any person, he or she is calling God to witness his words and to judge him accordingly. Such an oath is to be taken in the plain and commonly understood meaning of the words used, without equivocation or mental reservation.
Exodus 20:7 Hebrews 6:13-17 2 Corinthians 1:23
Deuteronomy 10:20 2 Chronicles 6:22-23 Psalm 24:4
B - Vows - A vow is a sacred promise made to God alone. Whatever is vowed is irrevocable and must be fulfilled regardless of the cost or change in circumstances. Therefore, unscriptural or careless vows should never be made by any follower of Jesus Christ. Examples of unscriptural vows are monastic vows, vows of poverty, vows of celibacy, etc. Jepthah, whose careless vow cost him his posterity, stands forever in Holy Scripture as a warning to those who make careless vows to God. Better not to vow at all, than to vow and not do what has been promised.
Ecclesiastes 5:1-7 Ephesians 4:28 Matthew 19:11
Judges 11:30, 35, 39
C - Cancellation of Vows - Vows may not be made in isolation from God's appointed authority structure. Vows made to God by married women, or by daughters living at home, may be canceled by their husbands and fathers respectively, if they are canceled on the same day he hears them. If he does not cancel them on the same day he learns of them then the vows are binding.
Numbers 30:2-16 1 Samuel 1:11&23
D - Conclusion - In a world where the word of people means little, even under oath, and where sacred vows are disregarded, destroying the very fabric of our civilization, we do well to consider our Christian duty to counter the tide. The unchanging God, who always does exactly what He has spoken, expects His followers to reflect this aspect of His character. Believers should never commit themselves lightly, should be utterly reliable, and should probably make very few vows during their lifetimes. When a vow is made, it is a sacred promise. Under no circumstances may it be revoked. In like manner, the swearing of oaths should be rare for the follower of Jesus whose yes means yes, and whose no means no. However, should the swearing of an oath be required, the Christian may do so without anxiety of conscience. TextThe teaching of Jesus to "swear not at all" must be understood in the context of interpersonal relationships, rather than in courts of law. Likewise, His teaching to "turn the other cheek" has interpersonal relationships for its context, and may not be misused to promote international pacifism. We find it inconceivable that Paul, appointed an Apostle by Jesus Christ, would make vows (Acts 18:18), and swear by God (2 Corinthians 1:23), in violation of his Master's will. Oaths and vows are not forbidden per se in Holy Scripture, but a definite warning is sounded to those who make them carelessly, insincerely, or unscripturally. Men and women will be called to account for their words. Jeremiah 23:10 Romans 12:2 Numbers 23:19
1 Peter 1:15-16 Ecclesiastes 5:2,4 Judges 11:35
Matthew 5:37 Nehemiah 13:25 Matthew 5:34
James 5:12 Matthew 5:39 1 Samuel 15:1-4
Matthew 12:36-37
Back to Table of Contents | Chapter 21 | Chapter 23 |
[Edited on 4-14-2005 by puritancovenanter]
[Edited on 4-14-2005 by puritancovenanter]
Making a vow by enlisting isn't sinning against God. The Constitution, while not overtly theistic or Christian, is acceptable and can be adhered to conscienably before God...it doesn't require you to break God's commandments.
I think I signed several oaths over the years...usually involving employment. I think everyone here paying rent or paying on a mortgage made an oath...we are to make oaths and do them all the tim, simply let your yes be yes, and your no be no: no "iffys". (By the way...if you're a member reading my post, and are going to contradict me, didn't you agree to a set of guidlines set up by the Mods? That would be an oath)
The war in Iraq is a different can of worms. But you can enlist with a clear conscience. When Roman soldiers converted, were they told to renounce their jobs? That was Rome...we're on our way to being like Rome, but not nearly as godless as Rome was, and Paul didn't command these soldiers to leave their posts.
I think I signed several oaths over the years...usually involving employment. I think everyone here paying rent or paying on a mortgage made an oath...we are to make oaths and do them all the tim, simply let your yes be yes, and your no be no: no "iffys". (By the way...if you're a member reading my post, and are going to contradict me, didn't you agree to a set of guidlines set up by the Mods? That would be an oath)
The war in Iraq is a different can of worms. But you can enlist with a clear conscience. When Roman soldiers converted, were they told to renounce their jobs? That was Rome...we're on our way to being like Rome, but not nearly as godless as Rome was, and Paul didn't command these soldiers to leave their posts.
SolaScriptura
Puritanboard Brimstone
What about it? I don't mean to be cavalier, but the bottom line - and this is a point that has been made for hundreds and hundreds of years - in Luke 3, when some soldiers come to John the Baptist asking what they should do, he doesn't say to get out of the military (and yes, this would have been an option since the Roman military was a volunteer army)... likewise, Cornelius isn't told to get out of the military. And they served a government many, many, many times more unjust than ours!
What would you do? Quite frankly, you'd go serve or you'd (likely) go to jail and then get booted out. A US soldier is given leeway - but only a little! - to refuse a blatantly illegal order. You, and others who think like you, may share the opinion that it is "illegal" to serve under the command of someone other than a US commander, but until the US government comes to share your opinion... well...
Additionally, the UN may be a corrupt organization. They may promote all sorts of immoral things. But appealing to that alone wouldn't justify noncompliance of an order... the specific order would need to be an illegal one.
It is easy to ask questions like this when it is applied to military service, but in truth, this question could be applied to society in general: is it wrong to work for a company that endorses immoral behavior? My company (like many - if not most- large companies) gives health insurance benefits to homosexuals and their partners. Does that mean it is wrong to work for them?
I think one needs to contemplate the implications of the words of Paul in 1 Cor 5:9-10.
Some (here) may not like to consider it in these terms, but it is legitimate nonetheless: the military is a job. Like every job it has its ups and its downs. Sometimes you will have to work for and with people you don't really like - and who don't really like you - and at other times you will work for an with folks whom you will come to love as family. Sometimes you will have to do things you don't want to do and at other times you will love your job so much that you would do it even if they weren't paying you (like when I got to go jumping out of planes... they actually paid me to jump out of planes!)... I could go on and on. All folks around here seem to want to do is boil it to the lowest common denominator: if you join the military you're volunteering to die or kill. Whatever. The same could be said of any number of professions. And like many other professions, not all jobs in the military give you equal chances of doing either of those things. For instance, a computer technician in the Air Force has about as much chance at killing or being killed as a computer technician at any civilian company. Not every job in the military is infantry. Remember that.
If you want a job - or a career - in which you have ample opportunity for professional development, if you want to make a decent living, if you want to tavel the world (at the government's expense - like me... I got to spend 7 years of my life in Germany... another 2 in Hawaii... a few more in Colorado...), if you want the opportunity to do things that most people only get to see done in movies, if you want a job that will keep you in excellent shape, provide you with fantastic benefits and perks... not to mention 30 days of vacation per year and many 3 and 4 day weekends... well, the miliitary has a lot to offer. Finally, like any job you will have ample opportunities to minister in the military. A lot of the folks - especially the younger enlisted guys- are searching for some meaning in their lives. A lot of them end up fodder for various cults. Oh that more solid Christians would go in and minister among them!
Bladestunner316
Puritan Board Doctor
sola,
You have some good points. Though im not rushing to join up. Not againts a military, not interested. Doesnt mean I cant enjoy war movies etc... I do. But Im not the military type. If I have to fight I will. Im gona become a electrician Lord willing of course. Maybe work on crab boats in alaska like my mom did. She was a crab fisheman for two years then I happened. my grnadfather was a merchant marine for the glorious kingdom of Scandanavia "Norway". You know your pictrure reminds me of my friend who is a chaplain in the military he is reformed. You look exactly like him. Scary.
Sorry..
Jonathen,
Just be prayful and wise about your decision there are many 'perks' with military service I think most marines if that is the branch you go into become cops. Ill be praying for you. I would say if you dont want to end up under the command of a UN leader or disagree with the current foreign policiy then I would seriouselly(sp?) reconsider joining. not that joining is bad, just that if you have strong moral - beliefs issues with that as I would it may be better to not join up then to do so and up up serving an anti-christian org like the UN. Who knows. I support you know matter if you join or not. I support the troops not the war. I pray to God the christian men out there stay strong in the faith. you may consider being a chaplain. just a thought. Ill let you and God figure that one out.
In Christ,
blade
You have some good points. Though im not rushing to join up. Not againts a military, not interested. Doesnt mean I cant enjoy war movies etc... I do. But Im not the military type. If I have to fight I will. Im gona become a electrician Lord willing of course. Maybe work on crab boats in alaska like my mom did. She was a crab fisheman for two years then I happened. my grnadfather was a merchant marine for the glorious kingdom of Scandanavia "Norway". You know your pictrure reminds me of my friend who is a chaplain in the military he is reformed. You look exactly like him. Scary.
Sorry..
Jonathen,
Just be prayful and wise about your decision there are many 'perks' with military service I think most marines if that is the branch you go into become cops. Ill be praying for you. I would say if you dont want to end up under the command of a UN leader or disagree with the current foreign policiy then I would seriouselly(sp?) reconsider joining. not that joining is bad, just that if you have strong moral - beliefs issues with that as I would it may be better to not join up then to do so and up up serving an anti-christian org like the UN. Who knows. I support you know matter if you join or not. I support the troops not the war. I pray to God the christian men out there stay strong in the faith. you may consider being a chaplain. just a thought. Ill let you and God figure that one out.
In Christ,
blade
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
A few comments regarding specific issues that have been raised:
* Swearing an oath before God is not sinful per se. The distinction must be made between swearing a lawful oath and an unlawful oath.
* Serving in the military or government is not sinful per se. Joseph and Daniel both served in ungodly administrations and examples have already been given about soldiers. Cornelius is a great example. However, if the condition for service is to commit a sin by swearing an unlawful oath, then one need look no further than the examples of Joseph and Daniel to see that they would have refused to sin if such a requirement were laid upon them.
* Why is the oath of loyalty to the US Constitution sinful? Because governments are not amoral. The design of the Constitution is make our nation a secular republic. However, secular does not mean neutral in the Biblical sense. There is no neutrality when it comes to confessing Christ or denying him. Nations have a duty to confess Christ just as people do (see Ps. 2; Ps. 22.27-28; Isa. 49.23; etc.). The Constitution specifically claims to be the highest law of the land, but it is not based on the Bible. It specifically prohibits any religious test for public office which contradicts God's requirement in 2 Sam. 23.3. It specifically prohibits our federal government from fulfilling its duty to establish true religion in the First Amendment, in violation of the First and Second Commandments (see the duties enjoined and sins forbidden per the WLC). There are additional sinful provisions built into the Constitution. All of them make swearing an oath to uphold the Constitution a sinful act because the Constitution is in essence rebellion against God.
* Those who have already taken an oath of loyalty to the Constitution though it was a sinful oath may still do good work in their vocations whether they be public servants or soldiers. Those are lawful vocations apart from the oath issue -- albeit they still have to address the moral issues that come with the job -- and hence Christians in government and military service may do good work. We are called to pray for those in authority over us and that is not conditioned on how they got the job. Render unto Caesar that which is due. Soldiers who protect our country warrant special thanks and honor. They are called, possibly, to sacrifice their lives in our defense, and there is not enough good that can be said about one who would lay down his life for his country. But all that said, the oath is still required, and it is still a sinful oath.
For a good read on the Covenanter view of civil government, see Alexander M'Leod's Messiah, Governor of the Nations of the Earth.
* Swearing an oath before God is not sinful per se. The distinction must be made between swearing a lawful oath and an unlawful oath.
* Serving in the military or government is not sinful per se. Joseph and Daniel both served in ungodly administrations and examples have already been given about soldiers. Cornelius is a great example. However, if the condition for service is to commit a sin by swearing an unlawful oath, then one need look no further than the examples of Joseph and Daniel to see that they would have refused to sin if such a requirement were laid upon them.
* Why is the oath of loyalty to the US Constitution sinful? Because governments are not amoral. The design of the Constitution is make our nation a secular republic. However, secular does not mean neutral in the Biblical sense. There is no neutrality when it comes to confessing Christ or denying him. Nations have a duty to confess Christ just as people do (see Ps. 2; Ps. 22.27-28; Isa. 49.23; etc.). The Constitution specifically claims to be the highest law of the land, but it is not based on the Bible. It specifically prohibits any religious test for public office which contradicts God's requirement in 2 Sam. 23.3. It specifically prohibits our federal government from fulfilling its duty to establish true religion in the First Amendment, in violation of the First and Second Commandments (see the duties enjoined and sins forbidden per the WLC). There are additional sinful provisions built into the Constitution. All of them make swearing an oath to uphold the Constitution a sinful act because the Constitution is in essence rebellion against God.
* Those who have already taken an oath of loyalty to the Constitution though it was a sinful oath may still do good work in their vocations whether they be public servants or soldiers. Those are lawful vocations apart from the oath issue -- albeit they still have to address the moral issues that come with the job -- and hence Christians in government and military service may do good work. We are called to pray for those in authority over us and that is not conditioned on how they got the job. Render unto Caesar that which is due. Soldiers who protect our country warrant special thanks and honor. They are called, possibly, to sacrifice their lives in our defense, and there is not enough good that can be said about one who would lay down his life for his country. But all that said, the oath is still required, and it is still a sinful oath.
For a good read on the Covenanter view of civil government, see Alexander M'Leod's Messiah, Governor of the Nations of the Earth.
kevin.carroll
Puritan Board Junior
With all due respect, Andrew, if you believe the Oath of Service is sinful, you have not read the Oath...or do not understand it.
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
With all due respect Kevin, I have and I do.
SolaScriptura
Puritanboard Brimstone
You´re backpeddling. What you´re saying, in essense, is that it is wrong to swear (or affirm!) that one will defend the constitution"¦ but once you´ve gotten over the hump of that initial sin it is then okay to actually engage in defending that constitution (which is what soldiering is!). Furthermore, your position NECESSARILY entails that all Christians leave the military since "“ and maybe you´ve overlooked this "“ soldiers have to reenlist every 3 or 4 years. Every time they sign a new enlistment contract they have to do the oath of enlistment.
Second, and this could change the direction of the thread, so please start a new one if you wish to discuss it"¦ 2 Sam 23:3 is NOT a faith test. Read it in its context. David is affirming the good that comes from having a ruler (in this case a king"¦ do we have kings in America? And yes, there is a difference between a king and a president) who rules in the fear of God. I won´t go into your other proof-texting, but the bottom line is that your position is based more on errant rationalization than sound exegesis. (The best example of this type of "œit-must-be-right-because-I´m-using-Scripture-and-my-argument- sounds-good" thinking is when Turretin tries to argue for the earth being at the center of the universe. )
Third, most significantly"¦ the uniform teaching of Scripture is that being in the military is ok, even if the government one is serving is intrinsically linked with paganism. Aren´t you aware that swearing absolute allegiance to a pagan ruler, law code, or deity has always been a part of military service? If Cornelius can remain in the military despite having to swear "œabsolute" allegiance to Caesar, then I can "œsolemnly affirm" that I will defend the constitution.
Perhaps the most striking example of a person in the military, who is affirmed in what he has to do, is that of Naaman. He was a general. In a pagan nation in the Ancient Near East. His position necessarily required that he formally attend pagan worship with his king. And what does Elisha say to him when he asks to be pardoned of this "œnecessary evil?" Hmmm"¦. I´ll take the example of Scripture, and the words of an inspired prophet any day over the theological rationalizing of well-intended men. We could go back to other gentiles, but again"¦ the uniform teaching of Scripture is that being a soldier is ok, even when one has to affirm allegiance to a sinful nation.
[Edited on 4-14-2005 by SolaScriptura]
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
I am not backpeddling. I am making a distinction between the oath initially required for service, which I contend is sinful, and the work of soldiering, which is about defending the country from harm, which is honorable work in itself.
I agree that my position is a bar to Christians joining or reenlisting in the military (at least in the US today). The testimony of faithful Christians who refuse to swear unlawfully should not be underestimated though. Look at the examples, again, of Joseph or Daniel, who refused to sin for their governments. It is better to refuse to sin than to commit sin that good may result.
Errant rationalization? "Do we have kings in America?" You can criticize and dismiss my position, and avoid interacting with the Scriptures, and with the Reformed Presbyterian article (sermon) that I cited, but it has always been the historic Reformed position that the civil magistrate has a duty to acknowledge and confess Christ in his official capacity. My position on this is probably not the minority position on the Board (it's the view of the Confession, chap. XXIII), even if my application of this position to the subject of the oath to the Constitution isn't.
I've looked at the Roman oath (sacramentum). It requires swearing by Jupiter that the Emperor should be worshipped by the human race. The word "absolute" that you cited is not present, but the language is problematic enough. Was Cornelius a true believer when he took that oath? Did he have to take the oath again to "reenlist" after he became a true believer? The answers to those questions would clarify whether he compromised his faith or not. The example of Naaman is certainly not something to be commended. Justifying unlawful oaths from his example is a pretty weak argument, in my view.
Matthew Henry on 2 Kings 5 v. 18-19:
[Edited on 4-14-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]
There is nothing in our Reformation teaching that would prohibit you from pursuing a career in the military. Being the best solider you can be is honoring to God. Puritan chaplains whose only weapon was the Gospel would be side by side with the troops as they went to battle.
Puritan Sailor
Puritan Board Doctor
Please keep the tone civil brothers. Stick to the topic, not to personal accusations. 
SmokingFlax
Puritan Board Sophomore
hmmmmmmmm...
How does all of this play out if, say, I enlist in the Soviet army or Hitler's storm troopers?
Where does one draw the line?
If Andrew's position is extreme against aligning with a beastly pagan entity....I can also see an extreme in Ben's position in not offering much of a constraint against such egregious examples as the Nazis or reds. Surely the conscience would be defiled in such a situation.
Perhaps I need to re-read the posts here.
How does all of this play out if, say, I enlist in the Soviet army or Hitler's storm troopers?
Where does one draw the line?
If Andrew's position is extreme against aligning with a beastly pagan entity....I can also see an extreme in Ben's position in not offering much of a constraint against such egregious examples as the Nazis or reds. Surely the conscience would be defiled in such a situation.
Perhaps I need to re-read the posts here.
SolaScriptura
Puritanboard Brimstone
And Andrew writes:
I'll respond to Andrew and then Christopher, as I believe that my answer to Christopher will flow naturally from what I believe to be true in the case of my answer to Andrew.
Andrew: I absolutely agree that Joseph and Daniel are excellent examples of two godly men who refused to sin for their governments. Good choice of examples.... but I believe that their example prooves my point! My point being this: it wasn't sinful for them to (work for) their respective governments, despite the godlessness and wretchedness of either of them. It was acceptable for them to be in their position despite the wicked policies of those nations! What Daniel and Joshua refused to do were specific acts of sin, not a general refusal to associate with others who are wicked.
The US military gives their soldiers that freedom - in fact, soldiers are expected to disobey (and report!) illegal orders. However, as you point out, a Christian would be morally obligated to refuse to obey a sinful order even if the UCMJ didn't allow it, but be that as it may, the US allows such actions.
So: It is ok to be employed by - and remain employed by - evil governments. The Christian only sins if he/she engages in a specific act that is sinful.
Christopher: you probably see where I'm going... I think - in principle - that it would have been acceptable for a patriotic German to enlist in the German army in WWII. However, to knowingly participate in sinful acts would, as we both agree, be wicked and punishable by God. (In fact, it is a known fact that there were Christians in the German army... remember, most of the rank and file soldiers didn't even know about what was going on with the Jews and others.)
However... at the emotional level... I would never have voluntarily signed up to fight in German army... after all... they were fighting the USA!
[Edited on 4-14-2005 by SolaScriptura]
Which is exactly what Andrew said. Exactly.
According to him (and the Covenanter Witness) the specific sinful act which would be required as a condition of service or continued service would be the commissioning/ enlistment/ reenlistment oath. Hence, he could not agree to participate, which precludes the military of his fine services. To his conscience, they are demanding a sinful act as a condition of service. So he must respectfully decline. There is nothing dishonorable (or unbiblical) about this position.
Ben, the Reformed Presbyterian view of political dissent which both Andrew and I advocate does not teach pascifism or the idea military service is sinful.
We believe:
1) that the US Constitution is a wicked document that denies the royal prerogatives of Jesus.
2) to take an oath to defend an immoral constitution is sinful
The oath of enlistment requires one to swear to defend the constitution therefore taking the oath is sin.
We have no qualms with those who serve an unlawful govt without conscientiously submitting or taking an oath to its immoral constitution- as Joseph, Cornelius, Daniel, et al.
We believe:
1) that the US Constitution is a wicked document that denies the royal prerogatives of Jesus.
2) to take an oath to defend an immoral constitution is sinful
The oath of enlistment requires one to swear to defend the constitution therefore taking the oath is sin.
We have no qualms with those who serve an unlawful govt without conscientiously submitting or taking an oath to its immoral constitution- as Joseph, Cornelius, Daniel, et al.
Archlute
Puritan Board Senior
Jonathan,
Two thoughts. First, you must remember the "two kingdoms" distinction. God has ordained the civil government to wield the sword in judgment and protection of its people. This is a valid, lawful, and divinely ordained function that must be recognized even though the government be creedally atheistic. As a Christian, you belong to the kingdom of Christ, yet we live between two worlds before His return. As an inhabitant of this world you are obligated to pursue lawful, gainful employment, and as the military falls under this category you should have no reservations on this level. Military service is not a sin, although having served for three years I can attest that it is quite a challenge to maintain spiritual purity. p0rnography and coarseness are rampant, and many of your team mates will be rank pagans. You, however, will be their salt and light!
Second, on a more pragmatic level, if you have even a sprinkling of physical ability, mental agility, and desire a challenging, professional and serious minded lifestyle - join a special operations outfit. I served my time in the 3rd Ranger Battalion, and it is an experience that I would never give up. Painfully difficult on the physical, psychological, emotional, and spiritual levels, yes (sometimes indescribably so), but it has shaped me for better in life in more ways than one, and I find that wisdom to be irreplaceable.
There are many units and jobs to fit one's taste - Air Force para-rescue jumpers, Special Forces medics, Airborne Ranger forward observers (a task from my past), blah, blah, blah... Every branch of the service has them. Look into it. I absolutely would not be able to handle the silliness that occurs in much of the regular units (nor could I handle having a woman for a Commanding Officer, as one example of a very unwarrior-like happening that you may run into within modern day armed forces outside of SOCOM [special operations command]).
Just a few thoughts for you. If you're going to do it, do it with the best of them (and do it to the glory of God!).
Two thoughts. First, you must remember the "two kingdoms" distinction. God has ordained the civil government to wield the sword in judgment and protection of its people. This is a valid, lawful, and divinely ordained function that must be recognized even though the government be creedally atheistic. As a Christian, you belong to the kingdom of Christ, yet we live between two worlds before His return. As an inhabitant of this world you are obligated to pursue lawful, gainful employment, and as the military falls under this category you should have no reservations on this level. Military service is not a sin, although having served for three years I can attest that it is quite a challenge to maintain spiritual purity. p0rnography and coarseness are rampant, and many of your team mates will be rank pagans. You, however, will be their salt and light!
Second, on a more pragmatic level, if you have even a sprinkling of physical ability, mental agility, and desire a challenging, professional and serious minded lifestyle - join a special operations outfit. I served my time in the 3rd Ranger Battalion, and it is an experience that I would never give up. Painfully difficult on the physical, psychological, emotional, and spiritual levels, yes (sometimes indescribably so), but it has shaped me for better in life in more ways than one, and I find that wisdom to be irreplaceable.
There are many units and jobs to fit one's taste - Air Force para-rescue jumpers, Special Forces medics, Airborne Ranger forward observers (a task from my past), blah, blah, blah... Every branch of the service has them. Look into it. I absolutely would not be able to handle the silliness that occurs in much of the regular units (nor could I handle having a woman for a Commanding Officer, as one example of a very unwarrior-like happening that you may run into within modern day armed forces outside of SOCOM [special operations command]).
Just a few thoughts for you. If you're going to do it, do it with the best of them (and do it to the glory of God!).
SolaScriptura
Puritanboard Brimstone
1. I realized as I was posting it that this was true"¦ and that this simply begs the question of whether or not the enlistment oath is an act of sin.
What I have tried to show is that all governments have required some sort of oath, or some similar thing, in which their servants declare their allegiance and loyalty. If no biblical example is condemned for their so doing, then that speaks volumes to me "“ and to most. To argue that Joseph or Daniel never gave an oath or pledge of allegiance to their respective kings is simply naïve. That´s like saying Jesus never went to the bathroom because the Bible never records such an event. The Bible isn´t interested in detailing every single event and detail of life in the Ancient Near East. It is just a simple fact that to serve in the court of a king that you would have to give allegiance to that king. Thus, I think that the reality of this, and given that there is literally no condemnation anywhere of them having done so, really does nullify your objection about it being necessarily an act of sin to swear (or affirm) that you will uphold the constitution.
2. It is possible to give an oath of allegiance to a king, or a legal code, while reserving pride of place to God. I mean, let´s be honest"¦ no where does the US oath of enlistment demand that the army, the Constitution or the UCMJ (which, incidentally has greater bearing on what you can and cannot do while you are in the military than does the US Constitution) take first place in your values. And I believe that too is important. And I think it testifies to the relative goodness of our system: we don´t demand that the Constitution take precedence in our value system over the Bible.
3. Besides"¦ I´m an American Presbyterian. I´m not a Scottish Presbyterian. My version "“ the American version "“ of the WCF thinks that our constitution "“ the American constitution "“ is good. (See 23.3) "˜Nuff said!
Here´s the most important thing for people who are really considering joining the US Military:
I understand that some people don´t, for one reason or another, want to serve in the military. And I´m fine with that"¦ I guess"¦ after all, people like me ensure that people like that can have their "œreasons." But anyway, I tell you what"¦ The military is a great gig. If you have something better going for you then fine"¦ but if you´re someone without any marketable skills, if you´re someone who doesn´t really know what (you) want to do with your life"¦ if you have a family to support without any other really viable way of doing so"¦ well, the military is a great place to be. (Not to imply that you have to be at the end of your rope for the military to be a good place for you to be!) Take my dad as one example: a "œsimple" auto mechanic. If he´d remained a civilian he would never have amounted to anything. However, the military gave him promotion opportunities and leadership opportunities"¦ and he retired after serving as a First Sergeant (the highest ranking enlisted soldier in a company)"¦ the army allowed him (and countless others) to develop skills that enabled him to "œdo something" with his life and provide "“ very well "“ for his family in a way that he never would have been able to do apart from the military. (For a further example, consider Colin Powell. Do you think that some little poor kid in the hood would have been able to make anything of himself were it not for the military?) Plus, the morals and values that are formally taught by the military are very honorable. Growing up in a military environment I was continually taught respect of my elders, being truthful, etc"¦ I mean, in how many other spheres of American life is adultery a crime? (Of course, the morals of many individuals in the military are deplorable"¦ but that doesn´t change the fact that formally, the military expects a degree of morality that is honorable.)
God bless the USA"¦ and those who swear (or affirm!) to defend her!
Pro Deo et Patria!
SolaScriptura
Puritanboard Brimstone
Adam! I was in 2nd Bn, brother! When were you in? 'Bat boys unite!
I agree that the best units are SOCOM units... I'd love to go back to one of the 'bats as a chaplain... but I'd settle for an SF group or even something with the 82nd.
Rangers lead the way!
Augusta
Puritan Board Doctor
Andrew, respectfully, don't the old testament verses that you are citing when taken in context both covenantally and culturally apply to the OT Nation of Israel? At that time they were the ONLY nation that God had chosen and he ruled over them via the judges and the kings that Israel later asked for. They were also the only Nation/race that God dealt with directly through his covenant and the temple sacrifice etc. All of that has been fulfulled in Jesus Christ who is now our only King, High Priest etc. Now we are grafted in and there is no longer one nation but the covenant is to all of the nations.
Also in 1 Cor. 7:17-24 NKJV
Live as You Are Called
17 But as God has distributed to each one, as the Lord has called each one, so let him walk. And so I ordain in all the churches.
18 Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised.
19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but KEEPING THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD IS WHAT MATTERS.
20 LET EACH ONE REMAIN IN THE SAME CALLING IN WHICH HE WAS CALLED.
21 Were you called while a slave? Do not be concerned about it; but if you can be made free, rather use it.
22 For he who is called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord's freedman. Likewise he who is called while free is Christ's slave.
23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.
24 BRETHREN, LET EACH ONE REMAIN WITH GOD IN THE STATE IN WHICH HE WAS CALLED.
I think this passage in combination with the Romans 13 passage shows that we are not in the NC to live as the OT Jews did. We are from all nations and we are an invisible church now. Not a visible one as OT Israel was. Paul is saying here don't make drastic changes once you are called. Live as your were but keep his commandments. Don't do anything drastic like the Amish have separating themselves out where they cannot minister the gospel effectively off by themselves.
I also don't know of any country that has God in their constitution or calls themselves a Christian Nation. The UK might have something on paper somewhere because of the Anglican church but they don't practice it. Should we all move to England. It is more liberal and immoral than America if that is possible. Look at the Netherlands. The dutch reformers would gasp at what they saw there now. God wants us to serve where we are to the best of our ability without sinning. If you could do that in Rome in the 1st century you can do that here. Just like any job you have or product you buy has some immoral ties that you could never avoid in so corrupt and fallen a world as ours, so will all of our governments be imperfect. There isn't even a such thing as a perfect church anywhere. We need to be where the gospel needs to be preached and that is among the tax collectors and sinners. In the world but not of the world.
Also in 1 Cor. 7:17-24 NKJV
Live as You Are Called
17 But as God has distributed to each one, as the Lord has called each one, so let him walk. And so I ordain in all the churches.
18 Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised.
19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but KEEPING THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD IS WHAT MATTERS.
20 LET EACH ONE REMAIN IN THE SAME CALLING IN WHICH HE WAS CALLED.
21 Were you called while a slave? Do not be concerned about it; but if you can be made free, rather use it.
22 For he who is called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord's freedman. Likewise he who is called while free is Christ's slave.
23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.
24 BRETHREN, LET EACH ONE REMAIN WITH GOD IN THE STATE IN WHICH HE WAS CALLED.
I think this passage in combination with the Romans 13 passage shows that we are not in the NC to live as the OT Jews did. We are from all nations and we are an invisible church now. Not a visible one as OT Israel was. Paul is saying here don't make drastic changes once you are called. Live as your were but keep his commandments. Don't do anything drastic like the Amish have separating themselves out where they cannot minister the gospel effectively off by themselves.
I also don't know of any country that has God in their constitution or calls themselves a Christian Nation. The UK might have something on paper somewhere because of the Anglican church but they don't practice it. Should we all move to England. It is more liberal and immoral than America if that is possible. Look at the Netherlands. The dutch reformers would gasp at what they saw there now. God wants us to serve where we are to the best of our ability without sinning. If you could do that in Rome in the 1st century you can do that here. Just like any job you have or product you buy has some immoral ties that you could never avoid in so corrupt and fallen a world as ours, so will all of our governments be imperfect. There isn't even a such thing as a perfect church anywhere. We need to be where the gospel needs to be preached and that is among the tax collectors and sinners. In the world but not of the world.
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