Right or Wrong if I Join the Military?

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Originally posted by kevin.carroll
I agree to a point. I would respond in two similar veins, however. First, we cannot have the society you envision without havig a state religion. That is a paradigm that has not worked in Europe. State churches have led to dead churches and endless religious wars. Besides, who would be to say which religion the goverment would sanction?

You're right that state religion is a necessary implication of my argument. However, the idea that the state has be neutral towards God is just simply a myth. Secular government is not the answer to the problem of dead state churches, such as we see in Europe. Would you tell a person that God has not commanded him to repent, ie., that he can be neutral towards God or live a secular life, neither confessing Satan or Christ? Would you not agree that such is sin in the life of an individual? How much more so is that the case when the state, the "minister of God," according to Romans 13, fails to acknowledge God and His law and instead promotes at best indifference and at worst tolerates evil? There is no moral vaccuum in law. All law is a reflection of morality. Secular or amoral law is, as I said, a myth. The Ten Commandments are binding upon America, and it is the duty of the civil magistrate to enforce them. The Ten Commandments have not expired with the state of Israel. They bind us in all callings of life, including that of civil magistrate. Toleration of false religion or "stews" or murder of unborn children or Sabbath-breaking, all of which are legal under the amoral Constitution, are all sins forbidden by the Ten Commandments. The civil magistrate, the minister of God, sins when he winks at or connives at such sin in the name of pluralism. Thus, the question is not state religion versus secularism, but which state religion do we want as a nation, the worship of the true God or a false God named pluralism. It is not the fault of state religion per se that the churches in Europe are by and large dead and empty. It is unbelief -- the same sin that overtook the Hebrews during the OT theocracy -- that is to blame. The answer is not to divorce religion from the state, but for the state to fulfill its duty to God, within its proper sphere, which is separate but overlapping with the Church. "Coordinating authorities" is the term that has been used to describe the Biblical alliance between Church and State. I have referenced before good examples in history of this: Calvin's Geneva, Covenanted Scotland, Puritan New England. Toleration of sin has generally been the undoing of such governments. The Inquisition, the fear of most who oppose the concept of theocracy, is a product of Rome not the Reformation. True religion and reformation in the state is a product of true religion and reformation in the church.

Second, we should not forget the spiritual nature of the Kingdom of God. Christ reigns today to be sure, but the Kingdom has not yet appeared in its fullness. We cannot bring it (the fullness of the Kingdom) about through our own efforts. This is something the Father is doing, putting all Christ's enemies under His feet. I realize we are involved to an extent...but ultimately it is God's work. Like it or not, we live in two worlds and must interract with them. A survey of the Gospels will demonstrate that Jesus did not have the antipathy towards Rome that some seem to have towards our own government. I think that is worth noting. The only times Christ remarked about the government was in noting that we should pay taxes and in reminding Pilate that Pilate's power was given him by God.

The fact that the kingdom is spiritual does not negate our duties here on earth. Are Christians permitted to avoid confessing Christ on earth, because their citizenship is in heaven? On the contrary, Christians are commanded to confess their faith before kings and magistrates. Likewise, Christians must obey Christ in all of our earthly vocations, including that of civil magistrate. We are not Anabaptists who believe that government is sinful per se. Calvin dealt with that wing of the Reformation and rejected it rightly. Jesus and Paul teach that we are indeed to pay taxes and render appropriate dues to the civil magistrate regardless of the religion they profess. But Jesus was called to yield his life unto death in a special way:

And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out [his] hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? (Matt. 26.51-54)

Does this passage teach pacifism? No. Does it teach that the civil authories can never be resisted when they act unjustly? No. It teaches that Jesus could have wiped out those who came to arrest Him but suffered it to be so that the Scriptures might be fulfilled.

When Paul spoke the magistrate as a minister of God, does he give the stamp of divine moral approbation to all governments, tyrannical or otherwise, because he ordained them providentially? Or rather, is he speaking of civil government rightly constituted? Is he calling Nero a minister of God? Heaven forbid! Paul is speaking of the calling of a civil magistrate, their duty before God, which duty the Constitution prohibits a magisrate from fulfilling.

When Jesus and Paul laid down their lives before the Roman Empire, yes, they set an example for us in regards to suffering under tyranny. They did not justify the tyranny, they did not commend the tyranny, they witnessed against it. It may be that Christians in America are called to lay down their lives in the face of tyranny some day.

But at the very least, we ought not to voluntarily take an oath of loyalty to the Constitution which 1) claims "we the People" as the source of authority; 2) sets up a godless Constitution as the highest law in the land; 3) prohibits state support for Christianity; 4) prohibits religious tests for public office; and 5) requires civil magistrates to support the amoral Constitutional laws which tolerate abortion, idolatry, Sabbath-breaking, adultery, and every other sin.

When Clinton was in office and his private sins became public, the American public by and large said that his character was his own business not the nations. Christians generally said that private character was a matter of legitimate public concern. The Constitution, though, says that we may not test our public officials as to their religion, the source of all morality. If we believe in the pluralism enshrined in the Constitution, we have no basis to object to Clinton's private immorality -- or is it amorality?

Religion is the source and fountain of all law. America -- and Christians in particular -- cannot pretend that its secularism will result in a good legal system that meets with God's approval. It won't. Therefore, we are back to the one and only choice that every nation faces: confess Christ or oppose him.

Psalm 22 is a Messianic psalm. It says that the Lord is Governor among the nations. It is speaking of Christ in his kingly office. That mediatorial office demands that the magistrate, the minster of God, acknowledge his authority as the basis for his law. As Samuel Rutherford said, "Lex Rex." The law is higher than the king. The law is higher than the people. And the God's law is higher than the Constitution, though the Constitution specifically claims to be the Supreme law of the land. God is not indifferent to the Constitution's claim for Supreme authority in the land. He does not condone amorality any more than immorality. Thus, our nation must conform to God's law in a public way or else be dashed to pieces (Ps. 2).
 
:amen: and :amen: !

I would like to further note that I do believe in national establishments, ie, the state should care for and defend one church, Christians of one nation should be united under one visible church, and indeed the whole world should by united by a single ecumenical synod. Is 9 explicitly says that the State shall be a nursing father to the Church. Also read Zech 4. You will notice Joshua and Zerubabell, a priest and a king, are the sons of oil that supply the candlestick of the temple, ie, the church. The symbol is repeated in Revelation. The meaning is that by the faithful exercise of ministry and magistracy God would sustain His Church.

As for the unfaithfulness of European established churches, that has nothing to do with the establishment principle but everything to do with the enlightenment, the Revolution 1789, and liberalism, which is also the fountainhead of tolerationism.

Kevin, very funny! in all seriousness though I believe my disgust and indignation was appropriate so I wont be taking your advice! Ex 32:9; Ps 69:9.
 
Geneva, Scotland, and New Enlgand. How are these good examples? I think there are some good ideas they tried to work out. But, in every case, the civil magistrate was an impediment to church reform and faithfulness. All Calvin's reforms had to be approved by the civil magistrates and often led to disagreements. The same problems occurred in Scotland. Who changed Scotland from presbyterian to anglican back to presbyterian again? The magistrate. In New England, the church often had too much say in civil affairs, i.e. Salem Witch trials, which ultimately led to a seperation of church and state in the new MA charter. It wasn't until we figured out toleration that the church's finally were able to govern themselves as the Scriptures laid out for us. If you would like to improve upon these 3 examples, then throw out some suggestions. But these 3 examples though noble attempts, were not successful in the long run.
 
Sad but true! Judgment has not yet been given to the saints

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
 
I have never been in the military, I am fairly neutral here and I really want to understand what Andrew and Peter are getting at here and I really have not seen any scriptural warrant for what you guys are saying yet. Is this idea put forth anywhere else than the Scottish Covenanters? Is there anything like this in any of the church divines, Calvin, Knox, etc?

1. Christ's kingdom is not of this world.

2. He is already putting the nations under his feet.

3. He ordains all of the leaders good and bad to his own purpose.

4. Psalm 2 is all about him putting his nations under his feet etc.

5. Psalm 22 is also just stating the facts that God is over all nations and it is talking about the end of the world when all will bow down to him.

6. Isaiah 49:22 is talking about how God will go to all the nations and the in the end the kings and queens of this world "shall bow down to you with their faces to the earth, And lick up the dust of your feet."

7. Acts 17:30 just says for all to repent, which is a standing order to all high and low.

8. Romans 13 tells us to obey the governments he puts over us.

9. Revelations 11:15 & 19:6 are the end again when every knee shall bow etc.

I just don't see any verses here that say we can't acknowledge a government or participate in a system that doesn't declare that the Jesus is Lord over them in a document. Is there any place that explicitly says that we can't be involved with a civil magistrate unless they declare Jesus is Lord? Rom 13 says obey them and he is talking to the Romans in Rome. He says if we resist them we resist God. I am befuddled.

Also Andrew I read that part of your confession Chap. XX:IV like five times and maybe I am dense but it sounds like it is saying that "they who, upon pretence of Christian liberty, shall oppose any lawful power, or the lawful exercise of it, whether it be civil or ecclesiastical, resist the ordinance of God." Ok its restating Rom 13 here, then it goes on to say that "And, for their publishing of such opinions, or maintaining of such practices, as are contrary to the light of nature, or to the known principles of Christianity, whether concerning faith, worship, or conversation; or, to the power of godliness;(still talking about these that disent on pretese of christian liberty)or, such erroneous opinions or practices, as either in their own nature, or in the manner of publishing or maintaining them, are destructive to the external peace and order which Christ hath established in the Church,"(still talking about the disenter and things they may publish)"they may lawfully be called to account, and proceeded against by the censures of the Church, and by the power of the civil magistrate." Ok so disenters under the pretense of christian libery who publish such stuff and are destructive to the external peace and oder which Christ established in the Church are to be called to account not only by the church but also the civil magistrate.

I don't see how this part of your confession supports your position. I actually sounds like it is against your position. I am could be reading it wrong but I read through it carefully several times. Also the verses you sited earlier I just don't see how they apply to your position either. I sincerely would like something more. I have always thought your opinions thus far were very good this is the first time you have ever written anything I didn't agree with. Is there anything else??
 
Originally posted by Augusta
I don't see how this part of your confession supports your position. I actually sounds like it is against your position. I am could be reading it wrong but I read through it carefully several times. Also the verses you sited earlier I just don't see how they apply to your position either.

Don't worry. You're not reading those things wrong.
Did you see 23.3 from the WCF that I posted and then his reading of it?
In case you missed it, the WCF clearly states that the Magistrate has the responsibility of promoting an atmosphere that is not hostile to the expression of religion... this responsibility is conveyed through the use of a father metaphor. Here it is again for you or for anyone else interested to know what the Confession has to say about the matter of the Civil Magistrates' duty in regards to matters of religion.

WCF 23.3
Civil magistrates may not assume to themselves the administration of the Word and Sacraments; or the power of the keys of the kingdom of heaven; or, in the least, interfere in matters of faith. Yet as nursing fathers, it is the duty of civil magistrates to protect the Church of our common Lord, without giving the preference to any denomination of Christians above the rest, in such a manner that all ecclesiastical persons whatever shall enjoy the full, free, and unquestioned liberty of discharging every part of their sacred functions, without violence or danger. And, as Jesus Christ hath appointed a regular government and discipline in his Church, no law of any commonwealth should interfere with, let, or hinder, the due exercise thereof, among the voluntary members of any denomination of Christians, according to their own profession and belief. It is the duty of civil magistrates to protect the person and good name of all their people, in such an effectual manner as that no person be suffered, either upon pretense of religion or infidelity, to offer any indignity, violence, abuse, or injury to any other person whatsoever; and to take order, that all religious and ecclesiastical assemblies be held without molestation or disturbance.

[Edited on 4-18-2005 by SolaScriptura]
 
Originally posted by puritansailor
Geneva, Scotland, and New Enlgand. How are these good examples? I think there are some good ideas they tried to work out. But, in every case, the civil magistrate was an impediment to church reform and faithfulness. All Calvin's reforms had to be approved by the civil magistrates and often led to disagreements. The same problems occurred in Scotland. Who changed Scotland from presbyterian to anglican back to presbyterian again? The magistrate. In New England, the church often had too much say in civil affairs, i.e. Salem Witch trials, which ultimately led to a seperation of church and state in the new MA charter. It wasn't until we figured out toleration that the church's finally were able to govern themselves as the Scriptures laid out for us. If you would like to improve upon these 3 examples, then throw out some suggestions. But these 3 examples though noble attempts, were not successful in the long run.

All three examples are of states which attempted to govern on the basis of Biblical law. In other words, piety was upheld by the civil magistrate (as our Confession, 1646 and 1787, calls for). For example, the civil magistrate enforced external Sabbath-keeping. What we know as "blue laws" (which forbad stores to operate or certain products from being sold on the Lord's Day) are the legacy of Puritan New England, for example. Such laws are truly an unConstitutional establishment of religion today, but they were based on the idea that it was right and proper for the civil authorities to help God's people in the exercise of piety and prohibit public irreligion. There were no mosques in Scotland or Geneva during Reformation times as we have today. There was no toleration of public blasphemy, no toleration of public homosexuality. There was censorship of impious or immoral expressions of thought by the civil authorities because such tend to undermine the peace of the state and bring the reproach of God upon society ("Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people," Prov. 14.34). The grounds for objecting to all the public sins that I have mentioned was not because of some Supreme Court's standard of decency, or because the majority wanted it that way, but rather because God's law said such sins were crimes. Public sins are indeed crimes against the King of kings. In Scotland, Geneva and New England, Reformed principles of civil government held sway for about a century before both church and state declined.

Howbeit, each of those three examples that I gave also shows the same pattern that we see in the Book of Judges and throughout the OT: God's people look to the Lord, then they get complacent, then the next generation arises and compromises, then by the third generation sin reigns supreme, then God's judgment brings the people back to him in national repentance. That's a common theme in Biblical and post-Apostolic history.

We ought not to set the bar lower because people fall away from God's high standards, however. The Mayflower Compact, the Massachusetts Body of Liberties, the Scottish National Covenant, the Solemn League and Covenant, the Geneva constitution, all of these are sterling examples of attempts to bring God's law to bear upon civil society.

Calvin's Institutes supports this view. The Westminster Assembly and its Standards are a product of this view. Every Reformed/Presbyterian (ie., non-Independent) Confession prior to 1787 teaches this view. It was not until the Enlightenment era that any nation or Presbyterian church dared to challenge the view that the state is intrinsically religious, not secular. In 1787, modern political polytheism, to use Gary North's term, was America's contribution to church-state relations. And American Presbyterianism is a sad testimony to the truth, far beneath that of the Reformation. Pluralism as required by the US Constitution is not a desirable state of affairs, and it has made the Presbyterian witness in America one of unmitigated compromise for over 200 years.
 
Originally posted by Augusta
I have never been in the military, I am fairly neutral here and I really want to understand what Andrew and Peter are getting at here and I really have not seen any scriptural warrant for what you guys are saying yet. Is this idea put forth anywhere else than the Scottish Covenanters? Is there anything like this in any of the church divines, Calvin, Knox, etc?

The concept of pluralism was not put forth in any Reformed Presbyterian Confession prior to 1787. Calvin, Knox, Rutherford, and indeed virtually all the Reformers and Puritans taught that the state has a duty to uphold God's law in the civil sphere. This concept is foreign-sounding to Americans, but it was the accepted understanding within the Christian Church (Anabaptists excepted) until the Enlightenment.

1. Christ's kingdom is not of this world.

2. He is already putting the nations under his feet.

3. He ordains all of the leaders good and bad to his own purpose.

4. Psalm 2 is all about him putting his nations under his feet etc.

5. Psalm 22 is also just stating the facts that God is over all nations and it is talking about the end of the world when all will bow down to him.

6. Isaiah 49:22 is talking about how God will go to all the nations and the in the end the kings and queens of this world "shall bow down to you with their faces to the earth, And lick up the dust of your feet."

7. Acts 17:30 just says for all to repent, which is a standing order to all high and low.

8. Romans 13 tells us to obey the governments he puts over us.

9. Revelations 11:15 & 19:6 are the end again when every knee shall bow etc.

Traci, What's your eschatological viewpoint, if I may ask? Your assumption seems to be that 1) if a verse in the OT says that God is Lord of the nations that such verses ceased to be applicable in the NT and/or resume being applicable at the end of history; or 2) if a verse is in Revelations it applies only to the end of history. The principle of the mediatorial kingship of Christ (as espoused in the various articles and books I have submitted previously by historic Reformed Presbyterian teachers) teaches that his reign is present and ongoing, not confined to the end of history. He rules in the affairs of men now, not just providentially, but here and now. He requires men in all their vocations to acknowledge his rule. For some reason, you are assuming that civil magistrates are exempt from any acknowledgment of Christ in their official capacity. Apply that to any other vocation and you may see how strange that sounds.

I just don't see any verses here that say we can't acknowledge a government or participate in a system that doesn't declare that the Jesus is Lord over them in a document. Is there any place that explicitly says that we can't be involved with a civil magistrate unless they declare Jesus is Lord? Rom 13 says obey them and he is talking to the Romans in Rome. He says if we resist them we resist God. I am befuddled.

I have not said anything about disobeying government. Refusing to take a voluntary but unlawful oath is not disobeying the government. Yet, if the government did require an unlawful oath, such as was required of the Scottish Covenanters, then "we ought to obey God rather than men" (Acts 5.29). I have said it before and I'll say it again, service in an ungodly government per se is not sin. Joseph and Daniel and others in Scripture did it. It is only when the requirement for such service is to commit a sinful act that such service cannot be condoned. It's all about the oath. If the Constitution is sinful, then the oath is sinful. If the Constitution is not sinful, then the oath is not sinful. Oath-taking is a serious business. If at any point, the Constitution requires sin on the part of one who swears before God to uphold it, then one has broken the Third Commandment. I have shown repeatedly how the Constitution does require such sin. Ergo, the oath is sinful and voluntarily taking it to serve the government is also sinful.

Also, although I have said this again and again, Romans 13 is not saying that tyrannical government is approved by God, which is the implication of assuming that Nero was a "minister of God." Ordained providentially, and ordained morally, are two different things. Romans 13 in fact speaks of the right moral institution of government by God. To think otherwise is to say that God approves of tyrannical government. It also implies that civil disobedience is never lawful because to resist the government is to resist the ordinance of God. However, Peter resisted civil authorities, and his example is commendable. Therefore, Paul is clearly speaking of government rightly instituted, ie., that which honors God in magistracy, as being "ministers of God," and not saying that all governements which exist providentially are "ministers of God." To say otherwise is truly blasphemy.

Also Andrew I read that part of your confession Chap. XX:IV like five times and maybe I am dense but it sounds like it is saying that "they who, upon pretence of Christian liberty, shall oppose any lawful power, or the lawful exercise of it, whether it be civil or ecclesiastical, resist the ordinance of God." Ok its restating Rom 13 here, then it goes on to say that "And, for their publishing of such opinions, or maintaining of such practices, as are contrary to the light of nature, or to the known principles of Christianity, whether concerning faith, worship, or conversation; or, to the power of godliness;(still talking about these that disent on pretese of christian liberty)or, such erroneous opinions or practices, as either in their own nature, or in the manner of publishing or maintaining them, are destructive to the external peace and order which Christ hath established in the Church,"(still talking about the disenter and things they may publish)"they may lawfully be called to account, and proceeded against by the censures of the Church, and by the power of the civil magistrate." Ok so disenters under the pretense of christian libery who publish such stuff and are destructive to the external peace and oder which Christ established in the Church are to be called to account not only by the church but also the civil magistrate.

I don't see how this part of your confession supports your position. I actually sounds like it is against your position. I am could be reading it wrong but I read through it carefully several times. Also the verses you sited earlier I just don't see how they apply to your position either. I sincerely would like something more. I have always thought your opinions thus far were very good this is the first time you have ever written anything I didn't agree with. Is there anything else??

The Constitution prohibits magistrates or government workers from punishing people who, in the excercise of their First Amendment freedoms, publish or practice principles in opposition to Christianity. For example, the Constitution does not permit Congress to bar Roman Catholic books from being published in America, or p0rnography, or Islamic literature, the list goes on ad nauseum. Yet, the Confession says that the civil magistrate has a duty to censor, yes, censor such things. Thus, as I said earlier, the Confession and Constitution are at odds on this point.

[Edited on 4-18-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]
 
Ben you are right that about the confession you are referring to which Andrew admits is friendly to our Constitution but he is using a different version of the WCF the 1647 version. Which is the one he quotes that still does not seem to support his position.

I am not fluent in the history of the revolution against the King by Oliver Cromwell etc. I saw the movie and that is about it. What I gathered from the movie which may or may not be spin was that the reason they revolted was because the government was trying to impinge on church practice which is clearly not allowed and I would revolt also. I would appreciate any links to a history of this revolution. I will also get a library book so that I can educate myself more on it.
 
Andrew my eschatalogical view is as I stated Jesus is Lord and has been since creation. This is eternal and not subject to any earthy magistrate or king and quite the contrary he says that they will all bow to him in the day of judgment. They are not doing it yet and of course there is a standing order for all high and low to repent.

Are there any examples of this blending of church and state in the early church? It seems like it occured post-reformation as a reaction to the RCC which as far as I know was the first time church and state was blended like that. We all know how that turned out. They tyrannized God's people for centuries.

My take on the NT and the new covenant is that the church has its office and that the civil magistrate has its and ne'er the twain shall meet.

I understand that the constitution is not perfect. I believe it is ammoral as stated earlier. I just don't see this Civil magistrate has to acknowledge Jesus as Lord anywhere in governing documents type of way anywhere. I see a general call for them to acknowledge Jesus is Lord just as there is a general call for all to do that. I am looking for something more concrete.

I would love to have a government that does what you require. I know though that fallen men are everywhere and will corrupt all that is good. I believe that is why in the NT it is directed that they keep there office to bear the sword for civil justice and the the church keep its office and they don't impinge on each other.

Maybe my view is too simplistic but yours is just does not sound biblical. If the reformers did agree with this I am surprised after they just got out from under the yoke and slavery of the RCC. The passage from Galations I think is relevant here. Paul says don't let yourselves be subject to yoke and slavery again by the old covenant ways. We are free. I think if you try to yoke church and state one will eventually overrun the other to the detriment of one or the other. I see the wisdom in keeping them separate.
 
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
Originally posted by puritansailor
Thank the Lord for liberty of conscience! :candle:

Yes, thank the Lord for liberty of conscience. But as our Confession says, Chap. XX:

IV. And because the powers which God hath ordained, and the liberty which Christ hath purchased, are not intended by God to destroy, but mutually to uphold and preserve one another; they who, upon pretence of Christian liberty, shall oppose any lawful power, or the lawful exercise of it, whether it be civil or ecclesiastical, resist the ordinance of God. And, for their publishing of such opinions, or maintaining of such practices, as are contrary to the light of nature, or to the known principles of Christianity, whether concerning faith, worship, or conversation; or, to the power of godliness; or, such erroneous opinions or practices, as either in their own nature, or in the manner of publishing or maintaining them, are destructive to the external peace and order which Christ hath established in the Church, they may lawfully be called to account, and proceeded against by the censures of the Church, and by the power of the civil magistrate.

This Confessional position, however, is at odds with the US Constitution.

:detective:

[Edited on 4-17-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]

I don't see it that way. And here we are again, arguing about our application of our interpretation of the Standards (which is an application of an interpretation of the Scriptures). That bothers me deeply.
 
Traci,

Historically, there have been five major views of church-state relations.

1) Popish -- The Pope claims to have supreme temporal power over the kings and princes of the earth. The Spanish Inquisition is a good example of the result of this sort of tyranny.

2) Erastian -- The king claims to be head of the church. This is the case with respect to the Church of England.

3) Anabaptist -- Anabaptists believed that government was sinful and so rejected the institution.

4) Voluntaryism/Pluralism -- The view that some on this thread espouse has its origins in the Enlightenment. It is an over-reaction to the religious wars in Europe and the abuse of church-state relations by Rome and London, among others. Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Voltaire, these are the principal historical advocates of this understanding that the state must avoid any "partiality" towards Christianity or religion and must treat all religions equally. It may be "workable" in the short-term when Christianity is the majority religion of the nation, but tolerance of false religions breeds false religions. Toleration of sin is not a virtue in the civil magistrate.

5) Presbyterian -- The church and the state are both ministers of God, accountable to him who created both institutions, required to serve him in their official capacities, not "blending," but working together to advance the kingdom of God in their proper spheres. The Westminster Assembly, indeed most major church councils in history starting with Nicea, was the product of this view. The Reformers and Puritans were well aware of the abuses of power in church history. Their view was quite different from the Popish or Erastian views. Christ is Head over both church and state, and both must conform to his Word. God's law is higher than the state and higher than the church. It was on this basis that the Puritans, Huguenots, Covenanters, etc. all claimed that the chief civil magistrate was accountable to God's Word and not a law unto himself. When they objected to the state's intervention in the church or tyranny over the people, their goal was not to create a state neutral towards religion but one that promoted the true religion. That is easily discerned by reading the Scottish National Covenant, the original Westminster Confession, the writings of Knox, Calvin, Rutherford, and any other Reformed theologian in the 16th or 17th centuries who wrote about civil government. None advocated neutrality towards the true religion, but rather that the state must uphold God's law, ie., the Ten Commandments. Failure to do so constituted tyranny and abuse of power. The sword is given to the magistrate to execute justice. There is no justice if the magistrate's standard of morality is amoral. There is literally no reason at all why murder should be outlawed if we don't look to God's Word to tell us that civil government must uphold the Sixth Commandment. Thus, abortion and euthanasia are legal in America and the slide down the slippery slope of amorality continues.
 
Quotes from John Murray, Collected Works Vol. 1, pg. 253-259

The Relation of Church and State

Both church and state are divine institutions. The state no more than the church owes its origin and authority to human expedient or contract...

The civil magistrate is the minister of God and he is the minister of God for good. [Chris: who has heard of a minister of God that will not acknowledge God or His Word? Who gets to define "good"? Man or God?]

Since the civil magistrate is invested with this authority by God and is obliged by divine ordinance to discharge these functions, he is responsible to God, the one living and true God who alone has ordained him. pg. 254. The magistrate is, therefore, under obligation to discharge the office devolving upon him in accordance with the revealed will of God. The Bible is the supreme and infallible revelation of God's will and it is, therefore, the supreme and infallible rule in all departments of life. The civil magistrate is under obligation to recognize it as the infallible rule for the exercise of civil magistracy.
It must be recognized, however, that it is only within his own restricted sphere of authority that the civil magistrate, in his capacity as civil magistrate, is to apply the revelation of God's will as provided in Scripture. It is only to the extent to which the revelation of Scripture bears upon the functions discharged by the state and upon the performance of the office of the civil magistrate, that he, in the discharge of these functions, is bound to fulfil the demands of Scripture. If the civil magistrate should attempt, in his capacity as magistrate, to carry into effect the demands of Scripture which bear upon him in other capacities, or the demands of Scripture upon other institutions, he would immediately be guilty of violating his prerogatives and of contravening the requirements of Scripture.

The sphere of the church is distinct from that of the civil magistrate. Its sphere of operation has been defined in the first section of this report. What needs to be appreciated now is that its sphere is co-ordinate with that of the state. The church is not subordinate to the state, nor is the state subordinate to the church. The are both subordinate to God, and to Christ in his mediatorial dominion as head over all things to his body the church. Both church and state are under obligation to recognize this subordination, and the corresponding co-ordination of their respective spheres of operation in the divine institution. Each must maintain and assert its autonomy in reference to the other and preserve its freedom from intrusion on the part of the other. But while this diversity of function and of sphere must be recognized, guarded and maintained, the larger unity within which this diveristy exists must not be overlooked. The principle that defines this unity is the sovereignty of God, and the obligation emanating from it is the requirement that both church and state must promote the interests of the kingdom of God. It is only on the basis of such principles that any Christian conception of the relation of church and state can be developed.

...End...

This quote could be found in most reformed thinkers that Andrew has pointed out. And for the sake of argument, Bahnsen, Rushdoony, North, Demar, Gentry, Morecraft et.al. holds to the same statement above.

They are however a little harsher on pluralism probably. The have the audacity of calling it Political Polytheism or idolatry.
 
From Van Prinsterer's and Kuyper's legacy in the Netherlands:

Statement of the Principles and General Political Program of the Anti-Revolutionary Party in the Netherlands, 1961

Drawn up by the Meeting of Deputies, June 10, 1961, in Utrecht, the Netherlands

INTRODUCTION

The Anti-Revolutionary Party is the oldest of the existing political parties in the Netherlands. One can speak of an Anti-Revolutionary Christian political movement already by the middle of the nineteenth century, when Guillaume Groen van Prinsterer (1801-1876) began to exert an evangelical influence in Dutch public life against the dominant forces of liberalism. This movement was given the structure of an organized political party in 1879, mainly under the guidance of Abraharn Kuyper (1837-1920), one of the greatest figures of Dutch Protestantism in modern times.

The aim of Groen van Prinsterer and Kuyper centered in the application of Scriptural norms to political life. This aim explains the name of the Anti-Revolutionary Party, since its efforts concerned the rejection of the "revolutionary" principles of political action which largely governed the Western nations since the great French Revolution of 1789, These principles implied a denial of the relevance of Scriptural revelation for the social order. The Anti-Revolutionary Party asserts this relevance in its Statement of Principles and in the guidelines for practical political action.

This Statement also has a long history. Its first formulation goes back to 1878. Revisions were made in 1916, 1934 and 1961. The following pages present an English translation of the last version, which was the outcome of extensive study and careful formulation by a number of leaders in the A.R. Party. Between 1949 and 1961 various drafts were presented to the members of the party whose suggestions and amendments were often incorporated into the final revision. In this way this Statement has become an expression of Christian political commitment on the part of a great body of Dutch evangelical Protestants. In this form it can be of assistance to Christians in other nations in the execution of their responsibility in the political realm.



PREAMBLE

The anti-revolutionary or christian-historical movement represents that element of our national character which was formed under the influence of the Reformation and the leadership of William of Orange and which acquired its identity in the second half of the sixteenth century.

Its point of departure is the confession that God is the absolute Sovereign and that He has given to Jesus Christ all power in heaven and on earth. Both the Government and the people are to acknowledge this power and are therefore obliged to keep the commandments of God for the life of the state.

In conjunction with the above, the Anti-Revolutionary Party (A.R.P.) accepts the following Statement of its Principles and General Political Program.



PART 1: GENERAL PRINCIPLES

Article 1

The A.R.P. considers as its calling to strive and struggle for the preservation and strengthening of the hold of the Word of God on public life.

Article 2

While recognizing the Church's calling to proclaim the message of the Word of God as it applies to all of life, the A.R.P. believes that Government and people must learn to understand on their own, in the light of Holy Scripture, what this message means for the political life of every age.

Article 3

Not the will of the people but the sovereign power of God is the foundation of the authority of Government. While opposed to specifying any single form of government as the only acceptable one, the A.R.P., grateful for the blessing given by God in the House of Orange, judges that for the Netherlands the most suitable form of government is the constitutional monarchy by members of this royal house as it has gradually developed from the Republic of the sixteenth century.

Article 4

The A.R.P. acknowledges that the Government is the minister of God invested with the power of the sword, called to maintain justice and to rule the nation for the benefit of the people.

In fulfilling this calling, the Government is to respect the limits determined both by the nature of its office and by the particular calling and responsibility of other societal relationships and of private individuals.

Article 5

The Government as the servant of God, by Whose grace it reigns, has as its calling

a. to acknowledge God's Name in all of its public activity;

b. to take care that God's Word can have free course among the people;

c. to extend equal treatment to all churches and all citizens, whatever their religious beliefs may be;

d. to abstain, in view of its incompetence in these matters, from all measures intended to coerce the religious development of the nation in a particular direction;

e. to uphold law and' order and to insist on sound moral conduct in public life;

f. to honor conscientious objections that any of its subjects may have against a governmentally imposed obligation, provided these objections derive from religious convictions and are not incompatible with a proper execution of the Government's task;

g. to respect the Sunday as a day of rest as far as governmental functions are concerned, and to promote such maintenance everywhere within the bounds of its authority;

h. to use its right to demand the oath whenever necessary to confirm fidelity and truth;

i. to promulgate days of prayer and thanksgiving for special times or occasions in order that the people may be encouraged to invoke the Name of the Lord;

j. and further, in general to do all it possibly can within the bounds of its authority that the people live according to the demands of the law of God.

continued at:

For other books about Kuyper's politics or in the Kuyperian/Dooyeweerdian tradition:

The Practice of Political Spirituality by McKendree R. Langley
The Christian Philosophy of Law Politics and the State by Hebden Taylor
Reformation or Revolution by Hebden Taylor
 
From Calvin's Institutes, Book IV, Chap. 20, sec. 9:

9. The duty of magistrates, its nature, as described by the word of God, and the things in which it consists, I will here indicate in passing. That it extends to both tables of the law, did Scripture not teach, we might learn from profane writers; for no man has discoursed of the duty of magistrates, the enacting of laws, and the common weal, without beginning with religion and divine worship. Thus all have confessed that no polity can be successfully established unless piety be its first care, and that those laws are absurd which disregard the rights of God, and consult only for men. Seeing then that among philosophers religion holds the first place, and that the same thing has always been observed with the universal consent of nations, Christian princes and magistrates may be ashamed of their heartlessness if they make it not their care. We have already shown that this office is specially assigned them by God, and indeed it is right that they exert themselves in asserting and defending the honour of him whose vicegerents they are, and by whose favour they rule. Hence in Scripture holy kings are especially praised for restoring the worship of God when corrupted or overthrown, or for taking care that religion flourished under them in purity and safety. On the other hand, the sacred history sets down anarchy among the vices, when it states that there was no king in Israel, and, therefore, every one did as he pleased (Judges 21:25). This rebukes the folly of those who would neglect the care of divine things, and devote themselves merely to the administration of justice among men; as if God had appointed rulers in his own name to decide earthly controversies, and omitted what was of far greater moment, his own pure worship as prescribed by his law. Such views are adopted by turbulent men, who, in their eagerness to make all kinds of innovations with impunity, would fain get rid of all the vindicators of violated piety. In regard to the second table of the law, Jeremiah addresses rulers, "Thus saith the Lord, Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood" (Jer. 22:3). To the same effect is the exhortation in the Psalm, "Defend the poor and fatherless; do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy; rid them out of the hand of the wicked" (Psalm 82:3, 4). Moses also declared to the princes whom he had substituted for himself, "Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him. Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great: ye shall not be afraid of the face of man, for the judgment is God's" (Deut. 1:16). I say nothing as to such passages as these, "He shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt;" "neither shall he multiply wives to himself; neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold;" "he shall write him a copy of this law in a book;" "and it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the Lord his God;" "that his heart be not lifted up above his brethren" (Deut. 17:16ñ20). In here explaining the duties of magistrates, my exposition is intended not so much for the instruction of magistrates themselves, as to teach others why there are magistrates, and to what end they have been appointed by God. We say, therefore, that they are the ordained guardians and vindicators of public innocence, modesty, honour, and tranquillity, so that it should be their only study to provide for the common peace and safety. Of these things David declares that he will set an example when he shall have ascended the throne. "A froward heart shall depart from me: I will not know a wicked person. Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off: him that hath an high look and a proud heart will not I suffer. Mine eyes shall be upon the faithful of the land, that they may dwell with me: he that walketh in a perfect way, he shall serve me" (Psalm 101:4ñ6). But as rulers cannot do this unless they protect the good against the injuries of the bad, and give aid and protection to the oppressed, they are armed with power to curb manifest evil-doers and criminals, by whose misconduct the public tranquillity is disturbed or harassed. For we have full experience of the truth of Solon's saying, that all public matters depend on reward and punishment; that where these are wanting, the whole discipline of states totters and falls to pieces. For in the minds of many the love of equity and justice grows cold, if due honour be not paid to virtue, and the licentiousness of the wicked cannot be restrained, without strict discipline and the infliction of punishment. The two things are comprehended by the prophet when he enjoins kings and other rulers to execute "judgment and righteousness" (Jer. 21:12; 22:3). It is righteousness (justice) to take charge of the innocent, to defend and avenge them, and set them free: it is judgment to withstand the audacity of the wicked, to repress their violence, and punish their faults.
 
The Westminster Confession on the Relation between Church and State

William Young

I have taken this title rather than the shorter one that has been suggested, i.e. the Establishment Principle, because it avoids certain misleading suggestions. The notion of an established church is commonly taken to mean or at least imply financial support of a church by the state, including the payment of the salaries of the clergy from public funds. On the one hand, I do not see that this is necessarily implied by the statements in the Westminster Confession, and on the other, the doctrine of Reformed theologians of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries has sometimes been rejected by men like Abraham Kuyper, who nevertheless admitted such support to be allowable. As a matter of fact, in our own nation the separation of church and state is taken in practice to be consistent with the chaplaincy in the armed forces and the tax exemption of churches. It is also important to notice the difference between the situation presented by Scottish Church history and that which we face in this country. When the established church in Scotland was disrupted in 1843, Thomas Chalmers"”who had officially defended an established church in Great Britain, and others of like mind, continued to defend the principle although they were willing to forego the privileges they had previously enjoyed. In the United States we do not have the historical background of the Free Church of Scotland, but the Presbyterian Reformed Church does have the same confession of faith, and it is with the teaching of that document that this paper is concerned.

The purpose of the present paper is not to propose a program of action, but simply to state and defend a doctrine. I for one would insist that it would be a disaster if our government"”federal, state or local"”were under the present circumstances to exercise fully the rights that are allowed even by the modification of the Confession adopted by a number of Presbyterian churches in this country. Either to discriminate by way of favoring some churches over others, or to act as a nursing father to all alike would mean in practice to give substantial support to unbelief beyond what is the case at present. I should like to remark in this connection that the issue ought not to be exaggerated, as if a central truth of the faith were at stake. While every peg of the temple is precious, yet in matters in which there is no or little difference in practice, I believe there is room for difference of opinion in theoretical matters. In this matter I deplore the attitude of some reconstructionists who would make the duties of the civil magistrates in minute details to be a major issue, when in fact the claims alleged have no prospect of realization before magistrates and people bow before the authority of the Word. And the great task of the church is to proclaim faithfully the Word of Law and Gospel.

In treating the topic of the civil magistrate in his relation to the church, I would first wish to state the doctrine, second to clear away some misunderstandings, and finally to present some reasons for the position. No better formulation is known to me than that of the Westminster divines in the Confession of Faith, chapter XXIII, article 3, which reads, "œThe civil magistrate may not assume to himself the administration of the word and sacraments, or the power of the keys of the kingdom of heaven: yet he hath authority, and it is his duty, to take order, that unity and peace be preserved in the church, that the truth of God be kept pure and entire, that all blasphemies and heresies be suppressed, all corruptions and abuses in worship and discipline prevented or reformed, and all the ordinances of God duly settled, administered and observed. For the better effecting whereof, he hath power to call synods, to be present at them, and to provide that whatsoever is transacted in them is according to the mind of God." And chapter XXXI article 2, reads, "œAs magistrates may lawfully call a synod of ministers, and other fit persons, to consult and advise with about matters of religion; so if magistrates be open enemies to the church, the ministers of Christ, of themselves, by virtue of their office, or they, with other fit persons upon delegation from their churches, may meet together in such assemblies." Also the provision of chapter XX, article 4, as to the power of the civil magistrate to proceed against persons publishing opinions contrary to the known principles of Christianity, etc.

In the first place it should be observed that the Church of Scotland on August 27, 1647 approved the Confession of Faith with the following proviso: "œIt is further declared, That the Assembly understandeth some parts of the second article of the thirty one chapter only of kirks not settled, or constituted in point of government: And that although, in such kirks, a synod of Ministers, and other fit persons, may be called by the Magistrate´s authority and nomination, without any other call, to consult and advise with about matters of religion; and although, likewise, the Ministers of Christ, without delegation from their churches, may of themselves, and by virtue of their office, meet together synodically in such kirks not yet constituted, yet neither of these ought to be done in kirks constituted and settled; it being always free to the Magistrate to advise with synods of Ministers and Ruling Elders, meeting upon delegation from their churches, either ordinarily, or, being indicted by his authority, occasionally, and pro re nata," etc. To my knowledge every Presbyterian church that has subscribed to the Confession of Faith has understood the right of the church to hold synods independently of any summons from the civil magistrate, and has so read the statements in the Confession.

Secondly, the fundamental thesis here presented is what William Cunningham termed "œthe lawfulness of some union or friendly connection between church and state" (Presbyterian Reformed Magazine, volume VI, number 1, p. 25). The thesis is a purely abstract one. To be realized in practice, there must be presupposed a Christian state, with Christian magistrates ruling over a substantially Christian body of subjects. Where such an ideal state does not exist, the question of the union of the state with the Christian church does not arise. This is obvious in the case of an anti Christian government that persecutes those who profess loyalty to Christ. It is also true that the principle in question does not mean that a nominally Christian state may establish a church, to be used as an instrument to further its secular purposes. Under such circumstances, faithful servants of the Head and King of the Church have preferred to operate as a Free Church, independent of the state. This does not imply a renunciation of the principle under discussion. In this matter Chalmers and Cunningham were wiser than Dr. Abraham Kuyper. Furthermore, in a truly Christian state, there need not be a preference granted to one denomination over others. In this matter I find the change made by the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A. in the Confession´s chapter XXIII, article 3, to have been unnecessary. The modified form of the Confession adopted by several Presbyterian denominations in this country still maintains the fundamental principle of the right and duty of the civil magistrate in religious matters, and contemplates in fact a predominantly Evangelical Christian nation. The original Confession may, I believe, be fairly understood as applicable to that situation, although the Westminster Assembly in the nature of the case did not contemplate the plurality of denominations of Evangelical Christians. What is implied is that a Christian government will employ its legitimate authority in furthering the interests of Christianity, in restraining public blasphemy and Sabbath desecration, as well as gross evils by way of violation of the second table of the decalogue. The confessional doctrine does imply that the civil magistrate is the guardian of both tables of the law. The sense of the doctrine will be clarified by the removal of misunderstandings that prevail among many who maintain opposing views.

The charge has been brought against the Westminster Confession that its teaching on church and state is Erastian, i.e., that it ascribes to the civil magistrate the right to interfere in the internal activities of the church. This criticism displays enormous ignorance of the Westminster Confession. The very section to which exception is taken (chapter XXIII, article 3), opens with the emphatic anti Erastian statement: "œThe civil magistrate may not assume to himself the administration of the word and sacraments, or the power of the keys of the kingdom of heaven." The following passage was not designed to contradict this fundamental position, but was carefully formulated with full awareness of the issues in controversy with Erastians like Selden. George Gillespie´s speech in reply to Selden is clear evidence of the anti Erastianism that prevailed among the divines, and that is formulated in the Confession. That there should be a contradiction so flagrant in a single sentence is implausible to the extent of absurdity, in view of the fact that champions on both sides had entered minutely into the issues involved in the controversy. The alleged contradiction is resolved by the distinction of the authority of the magistrate CIRCUM SACRA ("œabout sacred things") and his authority IN SACRIS ("œin sacred things"). The former is asserted and the latter denied. The magistrate may enact and enforce laws about religious practice, always subject to the teaching of the Word of God, but he may not in any way take to himself the authority of officially expounding the word or exercising church discipline. His authority in the matter is on the level with that of the Christian individual or head of a family, not the authority that Christ has delegated to his church.

The apparent contradiction between the magistrate´s duty toward the church, and the denial that he has jurisdiction in religious matters is dissolved when attention is paid to the language of the Confession of Faith. "œHe hath authority, and it is his duty, to take order, that unity and peace is preserved in the church," etc., simply states what he may and ought to aim at as an end. Every Christian ought to aim at the preservation of the unity and peace of the church. Hence this should also be the end envisaged by the Christian magistrate in the exercise of his office. The Confession of Faith says nothing at this point as to the means to be employed to accomplish this end, except for the previous denial of the specific functions of preaching, administering the sacraments, and exercising church discipline. The matter of calling synods will require separate consideration. It should be clear that, thus understood, chapter XXIII, article 3, is consistent with itself, and exemplifies the caution with which the Westminster divines skillfully avoided disputable points, while they firmly and clearly set forth the whole counsel of God in all things necessary.

A most serious charge against the confessional teaching is that it is guilty of propounding intolerant and persecuting principles. Before reply is given to the allegation, an observation should be made as to the character of the language commonly used. Here is an unhappy instance of emotive language being used to excite prejudice, rather than a serious cognitive formulation serving to clarify the difficult issues that are involved. It is necessary first of all to dispose of the ambiguity found in the charge of intolerance and persecution. These words call up frightful images of the Spanish Inquisition, the fires of Smithfield and the Massacre of St. Bartholomew. It might be simply asked in reply where in the history of Scottish Presbyterianism has there been a parallel to such atrocities, except in the treatment of the Covenanters by the Prelatists? The doctrine of the Reformers and the Puritans has never borne such gruesome fruit. The substantial element underlying the charge concerns the principle that the civil magistrate may and should adopt the entire divine law as the norm to which he must conform in making and enforcing laws. His actions should be directed toward the public observance of the precepts in both tables of the decalogue. The specific means to be used are not prescribed by the general principle, but they must fall within the limited province of the authority delegated by the sovereign God to human governments. Laws with respect to the Sabbath involve nothing of intolerance or persecution more than laws prohibiting murder, adultery or theft. The limits of the authority of the civil magistrate require a restriction with respect to the second table of the law as well as the first. The government cannot enforce the tenth commandment, for the duties required and the sins forbidden are purely spiritual, being located in the inner recesses of the heart, over which no human government, not even the visible church has jurisdiction. It goes without saying that the spiritual or inward requirements of the first table of the law fall outside the province of the civil magistrate. But outward displays of idolatry, public blasphemy and Sabbath desecration may be subjects of legislation, and will be in a Protestant nation.

One question must be faced in this connection that may not simply be dismissed on the ground that it merely concerns the means of implementing the principle. May the death penalty be employed in the case of heresy and other infractions of the first table of the law? Enough has already been said to show that an affirmative answer is not required when the Confession teaches that order be taken that all blasphemies and heresies be suppressed. I believe that the doctrine of the Confession favors a negative answer. The death penalty for heresy has been justified by an appeal to the judicial law of the Mosaic economy. The force of Deuteronomy 13:5 as a proof text in chapter XXIII, article 3, must be estimated in connection with the Confession´s explicit teaching with respect to the gift to the people of Israel of "œsundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any other now, further than the general equity thereof may require," chapter XIX, article 4. To justify on Scriptural grounds the death penalty for heresy would require not only the confessional teaching as to the civil magistrate, but also the assumption of the theonomists that the punishments for crimes under the Jewish theocracy are still to be maintained by Christian governments. If Scripture is seen to restrict the permanent application of capital punishment to murder, as alone not limited to the temporary judicial law, then the argument for such a punishment of heresy collapses.

The Confession of Faith is not to be interpreted in this matter by an appeal to the writings of Rutherford and Gillespie. The severity of their views has been exaggerated. Gillespie in Aaron´s Rod Blossoming, p. 2, states that some divines hold these penalties to be a rule to the Christian magistrate, and remarks by the way, "œFor my part, I wish more respect were had to it, and that it were more consulted with."* In any case, the views of these men are neither the norm for our own employment of Scripture, nor for the interpretation of the Confession of Faith. Consider this parallel. The Confession, chapter X, article 3, speaks of the salvation of elect infants dying in infancy. Opponents of the Confession like Dr. C.A. Briggs have quoted from Twisse and Rutherford to support the charge that the Confession teaches at least by implication the damnation of non elect infants dying in infancy. Dr. W.G.T. Shedd and Dr. Benjamin B. Warfield have properly objected to this method of interpretation. Views held by some members of the Westminster Assembly are not to be read into the Confession, but the document must be read in terms of its own statements. Other members of the Assembly, the Independents in particular, held views on toleration other than those ascribed to the Scottish commissioners, but there was no divergence in their position from the confessional teaching as to the civil magistrate. This would indicate that the interpretation of chapter XXIII, article 3, which we have been defending is correct. The section has been so understood by M´Crie, Shaw, Cunningham and Bannerman.

The charge has also been made that the teaching of the Confession, chapter XXXI, article 2, is Erastian in allowing the magistrate to call synods. In an otherwise helpful commentary on the Confession of Faith, we read the astounding misinterpretation, when speaking of chapter XXIII, article 3, it states: "œIt would then mean that the President of the United States could call a meeting of the General Assembly, decide what is the mind of God, and approve or veto the acts of the Assembly" (Clark, What Do Presbyterians Believe?, p. 212). Neither the chapter on the civil magistrate nor that on synods and councils teaches any such thing. The anti Erastian writings of Gillespie explicitly deny any such interference of the civil magistrate in the internal decisions of church assemblies. He clearly states: "œBut we deny that (in a well constituted church) it is agreeable to the will of Christ for a magistrate either to receive appeals from the sentence of an ecclesiastical court, or to receive complaints...so as by his authority, upon such complaint, to nullify or make void the ecclesiastical censure" (Aaron´s Rod Blossoming, p. 118). Much less would any Westminster divine countenance an effective veto by the magistrate of a decision by a church court. The limitation placed by the Church of Scotland on the magistrate´s authority to call synods has already been observed. The difference should be held in mind that is to be made between a church regularly constituted and one in which the situation is abnormal. The Westminster Assembly was itself called by the English Parliament to consult and advise. And the exercise of lawful authority by the magistrate was instrumental in the Reformation of the sixteenth century. The Westminster Confession simply acknowledges the conformity of such actions of civil government with the revealed will of God.

The charge that liberty of conscience rules out the power given the magistrate in chapter XX, article 4, is easily answered. Chapter XX actually deals with the subject of liberty of conscience, and contains the classical formulation of article 2: "œGod alone is Lord of the conscience," etc., words often appealed to as if inconsistent with the teaching of article 4. But it must be confessed that liberty of conscience is not that license to act contrary to the moral law. It is admitted that the civil magistrate may proceed against those who violate the prohibitions of murder, adultery and theft, and that there is no infringement of liberty of conscience in his doing so. Moreover, church censures are in order against sins forbidden in the first table as well as the second. It is the fallacy of begging the question to raise the above mentioned as an objection against the confessional doctrines; the real issue is whether the civil magistrate has authority with respect to both tables of the law, or is limited to dealing with offenses against the second table.

That the civil magistrate has a concern with religious matters is witnessed by nature itself. Not only is it a matter of fact that human governments have in all times and places exercised authority in religious matters, but it is inherent in the nature of the state that this should be the case. Since the persons over whom the civil magistrate has authority are also those who engage in religious activity, that authority is not relaxed when they perform acts of a religious nature. The thugs of India cannot justify robbery and murder on the ground that these acts are part of their religion. The civil magistrate must condemn their religion in condemning the crimes involved in it. Neither an atheistic government nor one professing religious neutrality is a counter example. Atheistic governments plainly deal with religion in opposing it, while the government that professes a separation of church and state is either inconsistent, as our government was through the early decades of this century, or increasingly opposes the Christian Church while inculcating contrary religious views, as the present tendency is. Willy nilly the civil magistrate involves himself in matters covered by the first four commandments, and it is the part of wisdom to recognize the fact, while pointing out the limits of the magistrate´s authority"”which he tends to ignore in a democracy as well as in a monarchy or aristocracy. Governments may either in Erastian fashion take to themselves the specific functions of the church, or under the appearance of religious liberty pass laws which in fact lead to the restriction of the Christian´s freedom to worship God. The latter is seen in the repeal of laws prohibiting Sabbath desecration.
Crucial in the present topic as in all matters of faith and practice is the revelation that has been given us in the propositions of Holy Scripture. The ultimate appeal must be to the teaching of the Word of God. It is a mistake to base one´s doctrine of the relation of church and state upon the changing historical and political situation. This is not to deny that the application of the doctrine to the actual state of affairs at any time must take into account the realities of the situation. But the doctrine to be applied may not be derived either from the facts of the present or from the history of the past. The sole source of the doctrine must have no inferior authority than "œThus saith the Lord." The methodological error of Dr. Abraham Kuyper was that, while granting this principle in theory, his defense of the Free Church in the Netherlands rested in practice on historical and political considerations.

The most striking passage that enunciates the general principle is Isaiah 49:23: "œAnd kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me." The evangelical prophet has predicted the conversion of the Gentiles in the preceding verse and now foretells the care that the magistrates of those nations will have for the church. The passage cannot be set aside as referring to the Old Testament theocracy, but, like much in Isaiah´s prophesies, envisages the New Testament church, particularly in the time the Lord has set to favor Zion. As Calvin observes, "œSomething remarkable is here demanded from princes, besides an ordinary profession of faith; for the Lord has bestowed on them authority and power to defend the church and to promote the glory of God." The general principle revealed in this verse makes it possible to determine in what respects the practice of godly kings in the Old Testament provides an example to be followed by Christian magistrates in the gospel economy. The various proof texts to the Confession´s chapter XXIII, article 3, on this subject are not to be read with the assumption that the punishments prescribed in the judicial law are to be executed by the Christian magistrate. It is only if the mistaken premise of the theonomists is adopted in the way these texts are applied to the New Testament order, that the conclusion may be drawn that the death penalty for heresy should be now in effect. This conclusion does not follow from the teaching of the Confession of Faith.

The Psalms contain abundant evidence as to the rights and duties of the magistrate in a Christian state. This is a prominent feature of the messianic Psalms. Kings and judges of the earth are instructed not only to serve the Lord with fear, but also to kiss the Son, lest he be angry, Psalm 2:10 12. Psalm 22:28 assigns as the reason why all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before the Lord, that the kingdom is the Lord´s and he is the governor among the nations. The Savior, whose sufferings have been depicted in the Psalm, is here set forth as mediatorial king of the nations. The implication is that the civil magistrate in obedience to the sovereign Lord will exercise this legitimate authority in furthering the worship of God. Psalm 72:11 is explicit in its prediction of the flourishing state of Messiah´s kingdom: "œYea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him." There is no reason to restrict the sense of the verse to the salvation of individuals, and to exclude a reference to the exercise of regal authority and the corporate activity of nations. Psalm 138:4 5 is another example: "œAll the kings of the earth shall praise thee, O Lord, when they hear the words of thy mouth. Yea, they shall sing in the ways of the Lord: for great is the glory of the Lord." That the civil magistrate will be the voluntary subject of the King of kings is the uniform teaching of the Psalter.

With respect to the New Testament it has been objected that the Scripture no longer teaches the close connection between church and state that is so pronounced a feature of the Mosaic economy. In reply, it may be pointed out that there is a good reason why this should be the case. In the first century the Christian church faced opposition to the point of persecution from hostile magistrates, both Jew and Gentile. Divine revelation has taken account of this and has given the church direction on this subject primarily in the Scriptures of the Old Testament. The objection that the church may not adopt such a procedure in view of the progress of revelation has no more force than the parallel invalid argument against the singing of the Old Testament Psalms in the Christian church. Nor may we ignore the fact that the New Testament nowhere nullifies the principles of the order set forth in the Old Testament. The argument for infant baptism from the absence of any New Testament negation of the principle of the Abrahamic covenant is a parallel to the conclusion drawn as to the authority of the civil magistrate in religious matters.

The positive explicit New Testament teaching as to the authority of the powers that be is in Romans 13. The source of this authority is God, who has delegated the power of the sword to authorized men. Nowhere is it suggested that the authority in view is limited to the second table of the law. Verse 9 is not to be read as implying a restriction of the authority of the state, but simply as enforcing the teaching of verse 8 as to the general obligations toward one´s fellow man. Likewise, when the Apostle Paul indicates that an end designed in the institution of civil government is "œthat we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty" (I Timothy 2:2), he is far from denying the obedience to the first four commandments as an important element in a godly life. The implication surely is that man´s duties to God fall within the scope of the rulers who are the objects of prayer in their official capacity, and not simply as individuals abstracted from their office.

The conclusion may be drawn that the unaltered teaching of the Westminster Confession rests on solid scriptural evidence. The contrary teaching is characteristic of the Anabaptist separation of the Spirit from the Word, and has been accentuated since the French Revolution by the humanistic ideal of liberty. The attempt made in this country to work out a synthesis of this ideal with the Christian faith appeared to be practicable as long as the great body of the American people were professing Christians, and predominated in educational and political life as well as in churches that were fundamentally sound. Today the picture has changed, and we find the principle of the separation of church and state being made a ground not for granting the church freedom to be conformed to God´s Word, but rather to be made subject to the passing political fancies of allegedly advanced thinkers. This development is no proof of any principle, but could provide occasion for Presbyterians who have adopted commonly accepted views to reconsider the original teaching of their standards.

I would conclude with the mention of a conversation of Professor John Murray with a Mennonite student at Westminster Seminary. The student had stated that he held the Anabaptist position of the absolute separation of church and state. The two had nothing in common and nothing to do with one another! Prof. Murray then asked what room would there be for the state in a community where everybody held that view. The student replied: "œIn South Africa we Mennonites have such a community, and there the church is the state."


* I am not convinced that Wholesome Severity is the work of Gillespie. It seems to me to be inconsistent with the quote from p. 2 of Aaron´s Rod Blossoming. To be sure, Gillespie may have altered his position, but since there is evidently some doubt as to the authorship of Wholesome Severity, I rather share the doubt than suppose that Gillespie disagrees with himself or with Samuel Rutherford.
 
A Body of Practical Divinity, John Gill, Chap. 4:

2. Secondly, to consider the duties both of magistrates and subjects. And,

2a. First, of magistrates; for though the duties of subjection and obedience are incompetent to them; yet there are duties incumbent on them, arising from their relation to their people, and covenant with them. And,

2a1. They are to make and pass such laws as are for the good of their subjects. The government of the people of Israel was very peculiar; it was a Theocracy; God was their King in a civil sense, and made laws for them, which he delivered to them by the hands of Moses; and their kings had no power to make any new ones; nor did they, not the best and wisest of them, as David, Solomon, &c. but governed according to the laws made to their hands. Our kings have a concern in the making of laws; that is, they have a negative voice, and can put a check upon any laws, and refuse to sign them made by the other branches of the legislature; and it is their duty to refuse to sign such laws as are not salutary to their subjects, or are contrary to the laws of God, and to the fundamental laws of the state.

2a2. They are to govern according to such righteous and salutary laws, and to execute judgment and justice, as David did, and other good kings do; and then magistrates do their duty, when the king reigns in righteousness, and princes decree judgment (Isa. 32:1).

2a3. They are to discountenance and suppress impiety and irreligion; and to countenance and encourage religion and virtue; even Aristotle[8] observes in his book of Politics, that the first care of government should be the care of divine things, or what relate to religion. Civil magistrates are appointed for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well; they are to discourage vice, and vicious persons; a king, by his eye, the sternness of his looks, and the frowns of his countenance, should scatter away evil, and evil men; and these being removed from him, his throne will be established in righteousness, (Prov. 20:8, 25:5). Kings are the guardians of the laws of God and man; and Christian kings have a peculiar concern with the laws of the two tables, that they are observed, and the violaters of them punished; as sins against the first table, idolatry, worshipping of more gods than one, and of graven images, blaspheming the name of God, perjury, and false swearing, and profanation of the day of worship: and those against the second table; as disobedience to parents, murder, adultery, theft, bearing false witness, &c. most of which, under the former dispensation, were capital crimes, and punishable with death; and though the punishment of them, at least not all of them, may not be inflicted with that rigour now as then; yet they are punishable in some way or another; which it is the duty of magistrates to take care of.

2a4. The principal care and concern of a king is the welfare and safety of his people, that they are secured in their lives, liberties, and property; that they live peaceable and quiet lives, unmolested by any; that they dwell safely, every man under his vine and fig tree, as Israel did in the times of Solomon; the maxim of the Roman orator is a very good one; "Salus populi suprema lex esto"[9]; Let the safety and welfare of the people be the supreme law of government; the safety of a king and his people is closely connected together, and the one is included in the other: it is an observation of an heathen moralist, that "he is mistaken, who thinks that a king is safe, where there is no safety from him; for, "adds he, "security is by compact and covenant, to be established and confirmed through mutual security[10]." Justice, prudence, and clemency, are virtues highly becoming kings[11].
 
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
Traci,

Historically, there have been five major views of church-state relations.

1) Popish -- The Pope claims to have supreme temporal power over the kings and princes of the earth. The Spanish Inquisition is a good example of the result of this sort of tyranny.

2) Erastian -- The king claims to be head of the church. This is the case with respect to the Church of England.

3) Anabaptist -- Anabaptists believed that government was sinful and so rejected the institution.

4) Voluntaryism/Pluralism -- The view that some on this thread espouse has its origins in the Enlightenment. It is an over-reaction to the religious wars in Europe and the abuse of church-state relations by Rome and London, among others. Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Voltaire, these are the principal historical advocates of this understanding that the state must avoid any "partiality" towards Christianity or religion and must treat all religions equally. It may be "workable" in the short-term when Christianity is the majority religion of the nation, but tolerance of false religions breeds false religions. Toleration of sin is not a virtue in the civil magistrate.

5) Presbyterian -- The church and the state are both ministers of God, accountable to him who created both institutions, required to serve him in their official capacities, not "blending," but working together to advance the kingdom of God in their proper spheres. The Westminster Assembly, indeed most major church councils in history starting with Nicea, was the product of this view. The Reformers and Puritans were well aware of the abuses of power in church history. Their view was quite different from the Popish or Erastian views. Christ is Head over both church and state, and both must conform to his Word. God's law is higher than the state and higher than the church. It was on this basis that the Puritans, Huguenots, Covenanters, etc. all claimed that the chief civil magistrate was accountable to God's Word and not a law unto himself. When they objected to the state's intervention in the church or tyranny over the people, their goal was not to create a state neutral towards religion but one that promoted the true religion. That is easily discerned by reading the Scottish National Covenant, the original Westminster Confession, the writings of Knox, Calvin, Rutherford, and any other Reformed theologian in the 16th or 17th centuries who wrote about civil government. None advocated neutrality towards the true religion, but rather that the state must uphold God's law, ie., the Ten Commandments. Failure to do so constituted tyranny and abuse of power. The sword is given to the magistrate to execute justice. There is no justice if the magistrate's standard of morality is amoral. There is literally no reason at all why murder should be outlawed if we don't look to God's Word to tell us that civil government must uphold the Sixth Commandment. Thus, abortion and euthanasia are legal in America and the slide down the slippery slope of amorality continues.

Thank you Andrew this helps. I am still studying the issue. I still have trouble with it on a completely different level. We are called to love our neighbor, abide with Christ and wait for him, we have instructions for church practice, etc. We are called to do all to the glory of God, serve and stay where we were when we were called etc.

God is sovereign over all. Even our calling and election. Our purposes and will are nothing. He brings all things together for our good. So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

Then God tells us that he also is sovereign in ordaining and raising up our leaders and we should obey them. Do you see the paradigm shift here from the OT where he showed that all the striving and trying to fulfill the law was futile, then we get to the NT where he is supreme and we just rest and follow him. We don't even strive, he brings about the sufferings and tests to sanctify us.

Yet we are supposed to try to raise up Godly leaders ourselves? Do you see how this just doesn't compute? For us to strive after that and try to create on earth what is clearly outlined as God's purview?

I was truly blessed to have been shown by God his doctrines of grace. I take the reformers seriously in this area. I believe the reformation was a work of God but I am not going to buy into every single reformational idea without a lot of thought. I was burned once by arminianism. The reformers were fallible men. They were not inspired apostles. I wish the NT was more explicit on this subject. As it is I think in a collective whole counsel of God way it supports my position better at this time than it does the historical Presbyterian, covenanter etc. position. The whole tares among the wheat, live where you are called, obey your masters and magistrates but sin not. Be in the world but not of it. All of these themes along with our inability to even be righteous ourselves here on earth but we are to expect our government to be?

Thanks again for all your reference stuff. I get it that it was the historical reformed position but I think it is pie in the sky still and not our purview.

[Edited on 4-18-2005 by Augusta]
 
Originally posted by Draught Horse
Andrew,
Where can I find God and Politics: 4 Views?

Jacob,

I checked just now and saw copies of this book available through Addall.com/used and Abebooks.com. However, I was shocked at the prices (around $75). It was published by P&R, but they don't seem to have it in print, nor did I see it available through Amazon.com. It's a helpful book, but I wouldn't want to pay that much for it personally. I corresponded with Bill Edgar after it was published in the early 90's. I don't actually agree with everything he says in the book though he the chief person articulating the National Confession position. Hope this helps a little.
 
Andrew, I wish you could find a book called Battle for the Church. It is a book found in the UK. A friend from Scotland sent it to me. It would challenge your thoughts as it did mine about Church and State. It is written by a guy named David Gay. He is a Reformed Baptist I believe. I am reading it at this time. If you can't find a copy I will mail you mine so that you can read it. I would be very interested in your critique of it.

Randy

I was discipled by someone who did his doctorate thesis on William Symington many years ago. So I am quite familiar with Messiah the Prince.

[Edited on 4-18-2005 by puritancovenanter]
 
Andrew

In theory the following is true in the US system of republican government: Constitution=king

According to you:

A. The Constitution is a less than God-glorifying document.

B. There is no neutrality for the Christian.

C. Ergo - my synopsis of what must follow according to your ideas- The Christian must work to destroy the Constitution (not simply ammend it).


Yet:

A. Artexerxes was a less than God glorifying king.

B. The Covenant people could not be neutral

C. Yet Mordecai saved the king's life.


A. The Roman government was a less than God glorifying government.

B. The Covenant people were not to be neutral.

C. Did the Christian Centurion not continue to support and defend Rome?


A. Darius was a less than God glorifying king.

B. Daniel was called to not be neutral.

C. Did he not support and defend Darius?


2 Chronicles 36:11-21
11 Zedekiah was twenty-one years old when he became king, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem. 12 He did evil in the sight of the Lord his God, and did not humble himself before Jeremiah the prophet, who spoke from the mouth of the Lord. 13 And he also rebelled against King Nebuchadnezzar, who had made him swear an oath by God; but he stiffened his neck and hardened his heart against turning to the Lord God of Israel.

Jeremiah 40:7-16
7 And when all the captains of the armies who were in the fields, they and their men, heard that the king of Babylon had made Gedaliah the son of Ahikam governor in the land, and had committed to him men, women, children, and the poorest of the land who had not been carried away captive to Babylon, 8 then they came to Gedaliah at Mizpah--Ishmael the son of Nethaniah, Johanan and Jonathan the sons of Kareah, Seraiah the son of Tanhumeth, the sons of Ephai the Netophathite, and Jezaniah F41 the son of a Maachathite, they and their men. 9 And Gedaliah the son of Ahikam, the son of Shaphan, took an oath before them and their men, saying, "Do not be afraid to serve the Chaldeans. Dwell in the land and serve the king of Babylon, and it shall be well with you. 10 As for me, I will indeed dwell at Mizpah and serve the Chaldeans who come to us. But you, gather wine and summer fruit and oil, put them in your vessels, and dwell in your cities that you have taken."

http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Comment...plete/mhc-com.cgi?book=jer&chapter=40#Jer40_9

Ezekiel 17 :11 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 12 "Say now to the rebellious house: 'Do you not know what these things mean?' Tell them, 'Indeed the king of Babylon went to Jerusalem and took its king and princes, and led them with him to Babylon. 13 And he took the king's offspring, made a covenant with him, and put him under oath. He also took away the mighty of the land, 14 that the kingdom might be brought low and not lift itself up, but that by keeping his covenant it might stand. 15 But he rebelled against him by sending his ambassadors to Egypt, that they might give him horses and many people. Will he prosper? Will he who does such things escape? Can he break a covenant and still be delivered? 16 As I live,' says the Lord God, 'surely in the place where the king dwells who made him king, whose oath he despised and whose covenant he broke--with him in the midst of Babylon he shall die. 17 Nor will Pharaoh with his mighty army and great company do anything in the war, when they heap up a siege mound and build a wall to cut off many persons. 18 Since he despised the oath by breaking the covenant, and in fact gave his hand and still did all these things, he shall not escape.' " 19 Therefore thus says the Lord God: "As I live, surely My oath which he despised, and My covenant which he broke, I will recompense on his own head. 20 I will spread My net over him, and he shall be taken in My snare. I will bring him to Babylon and try him there for the treason which he committed against Me. 21 All his fugitives F20 with all his troops shall fall by the sword, and those who remain shall be scattered to every wind; and you shall know that I, the Lord, have spoken."

Gedaliah is seen as unsinful despite taking an oath to support and work for the Chaldeans. Zedekiah is seen as sinful for breaking his oath that was sworn to Nebukednezzar. Gedaliah had to swear allegiance to a government that had no chance to reform and scripture does not describe what he does as sin yet the modern enlistee's oath has at least some chance that our document flawed as it is can be changed to reflect an acknowledgement of God (if you don't think that it already does). BTW (and I know that Scripture is silent on this but it defies reason to be otherwise) I am sure that Ezra and Nehemiah had to swear fealty to their governments as well before they took off to re-patriate the promised land.

If I or any other enlistee/commissionee takes the oath to support and defend the Constitution are we not suggesting that we will do just what you do, attempt to reform a less than Godly document into a more Godly document? If you pay taxes you support some form of incrementalism. If you are not actively attempting to destroy the constitution completely (not just ammend it) then you must be supporting it (if there is no neutrality). If you would simply ammend it more radically than I or others would then you and I have the same fundamental position.

I am probably mistaking your position and generally not understanding what you are saying but these are the questions that come to my (rather dull) mind. I really think that you are too smart and have somehow out-thought yourself.

Chuck
 
BTW I aggree that the constitution should acknowledge the triune God as the ordainer and sustainer of the US government and that individual politicians and government functionaries etc should also acknowledge it.
 
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenotIf the Constitution is not sinful, then the oath is not sinful. Oath-taking is a serious business. If at any point, the Constitution requires sin on the part of one who swears before God to uphold it, then one has broken the Third Commandment. I have shown repeatedly how the Constitution does require such sin. Ergo, the oath is sinful and voluntarily taking it to serve the government is also sinful.

I know you feel you have made your case, but I don't see it that way. Frankly I remain unimpressed by yout appeal to the Covenanters for a variety of reasons. First, this isn't Scotland. It's the USA. Second, we do not have a state church so the paradigm is vastly different. Third, history has shown from the Edict of Nantes down to Plymouth Colony that state/church marriages do not work. Even if they could work, all the state can do is compell outward compliance but they cannot change hearts. One can observe blue laws and go to hell. But you know this. Fourth, no one is disagreeing with you about what a government should do. But what they should do and actually do are not necessarily the same. Fifth, I haven't seen one shred of clear bliblical evidence (without having to play hermeneutical acrobat) to suggest that the Constitution is the sinful document you claim it to be. It is outwardly secular, to be sure, but a careful inspection of the document will find it to be firmly, if implicitly, rooted in the Judeo-Christian heritage. Finally, our forefathers (American that is) wisely recognized the model you espouse as being unworkable. It relies on outward compliance but fails to touch the heart. Of course, the real problem with the Constitution is that the seeds of its own demise does lie in the pluralism it allows.

I'm afraid that I am going to have to see this as an issue of Christian liberty, of freedom of conscience. Swearing an oath to the Constitution would be a sin for you. But it isn't for me, and I have proudly (and sinlessly) done it three times.

Guess we will have to agree to disagree...but my did I learn a lot in the process! :handshake:
 
Chuck,

I've never argued for the destruction of the US Constitution. I would advocate reforming or amending it to bring it into conformity with God's Law. If it cannot be amended, then let it be replaced by a national charter that does confess Christ. I'm really not sure what you mean by destroy. As I have said before, the Constitution has much that is good in it (procedurally). But in terms of specific provisions that contradict God's Law, I would like to see those amended.

I have also said repeatedly that service to an ungodly government is not sinful per se. I have cited the examples of Joseph and Daniel numerous times. However, at no point did they continue to blindly serve an ungodly government when required to take an unlawful oath or otherwise sin.

The term "less than glorifying" is not very helpful. That category applies to everyone at all times. Magistrates sin specifically, however, when they fail to "kiss the Son" (Ps. 2.12).

Subjects are commanded to obey magistrates in things lawful. Revolution is a last resort, not the first item on the checklist of a Christian citizen. Tyrants may be called to account, but great deference is to be given even to tyrants because of the honor vested in the office of magistracy.

It is important to clarify when we are speaking about the duties of subjects versus the duties of magistrates. I think your post confounds the two. Taxes are to be paid by subjects, but magistrates sin when they tax unjustly. Subjects are to swear to lawful oaths when required to do so by the magistrate, but magistrates may not lawfully require unlawful oaths. The distinction between subjects and magistrates is important.

Proper reformation in the state must come from both subjects (grass roots) and magistrates (those in authority), all of which begins in the church and by the power of the Holy Spirit.

[Edited on 4-20-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]
 
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