SBC Exodus Mandate

[The Deeps]

Able, sounds like you have a beef with Voddie personally, i'm not sure, just a vibe

There is no way I can be persuaded to deliver my children into the sewer of iniquity public schools have become

Thats where i come from and i will never forget where i come from.
As for that sewer my heart is more filthy.

Who will deliver your children from the sewer of iniquity in our own parental hearts... prone to mistakes?

I don't even know Voddie. I am not attacking him.
I have been around the fundamentalist block a couple times and i didn't fit the mold.

 

[the particular baptist]

This is Armenianism and the end of these ideas are going to lead to monasticism or incredible pious arrogance.

Im not Arminian, not even close, and incredible pious arrogance is a pretty broad brush on home-schoolers motives.

 

[KMK]

I know it is easier to do so, but we must be careful not to use a broad brush when condemning public schools. Not all school boards are the same. I have worked in 3 different school districts and they are very different. There seems to be some hasty generalization going on.

Also, it seems that some try to make this a moral issue. I know an Atheist homeschool mom who says she does so to keep her kids away from all the Christians in public schools!

That being said, I homeschool my children.

 

[The Deeps]

This is Armenianism and the end of these ideas are going to lead to monasticism or incredible pious arrogance.

Im not Arminian, not even close, and incredible pious arrogance is a pretty broad brush on home-schoolers motives.

I am homeschooling my children.

 

[JohnGill]

I know it is easier to do so, but we must be careful not to use a broad brush when condemning public schools. Not all school boards are the same. I have worked in 3 different school districts and they are very different. There seems to be some hasty generalization going on.

Also, it seems that some try to make this a moral issue. I know an Atheist homeschool mom who says she does so to keep her kids away from all the Christians in public schools!

That being said, I homeschool my children.

Just thought the sentence order was funny.

 

[KMK]

I know it is easier to do so, but we must be careful not to use a broad brush when condemning public schools. Not all school boards are the same. I have worked in 3 different school districts and they are very different. There seems to be some hasty generalization going on.

Also, it seems that some try to make this a moral issue. I know an Atheist homeschool mom who says she does so to keep her kids away from all the Christians in public schools!

That being said, I homeschool my children.

Just thought the sentence order was funny.

You're right! That doesn't sound at all like what I meant.

In the words of Roseanne Roseannadanna, "Never mind."

 

[The Deeps]

I also want to make it clear I am not calling Voddie an Armenian.
Just prone to error... Like a true Calvinist.

 

[JohnGill]

I know it is easier to do so, but we must be careful not to use a broad brush when condemning public schools. Not all school boards are the same. I have worked in 3 different school districts and they are very different. There seems to be some hasty generalization going on.

Also, it seems that some try to make this a moral issue. I know an Atheist homeschool mom who says she does so to keep her kids away from all the Christians in public schools!

That being said, I homeschool my children.

Just thought the sentence order was funny.

You're right! That doesn't sound at all like what I meant.

In the words of Roseanne Roseannadanna, "Never mind."

If I wasn't thanked out already today, I'd thank you for that. Intentional or not, you made me laugh out loud for a good minute.

 

[The Deeps]

I know it is easier to do so, but we must be careful not to use a broad brush when condemning public schools. Not all school boards are the same. I have worked in 3 different school districts and they are very different. There seems to be some hasty generalization going on.

Also, it seems that some try to make this a moral issue. I know an Atheist homeschool mom who says she does so to keep her kids away from all the Christians in public schools!

That being said, I homeschool my children.

Just thought the sentence order was funny.

You're right! That doesn't sound at all like what I meant.

In the words of Roseanne Roseannadanna, "Never mind."

 

[JohnGill]

I also want to make it clear I am not calling Voddie an Armenian.
Just prone to error... Like a true Calvinist.

What are you implying?

From Wikipedia:

The Armenians (Armenian: Հայեր, Hayer) are a nation and ethnic group originating in the Caucasus and in the Armenian Highlands. A large concentration of them has remained there, especially in Armenia, but many of them are also scattered elsewhere throughout the world (see Armenian diaspora). The Armenians have had a significant presence in countries such as Georgia, Iran, Russia, and Ukraine due to their proximity to Armenia. After the Armenian Genocide, a large influx of survivors fled to France, the United States, Argentina, the Levant and other countries that welcomed the Armenians. There are an estimated 8 million Armenians around the world.[17]

 

[The Deeps]

I also want to make it clear I am not calling Voddie an Armenian.
Just prone to error... Like a true Calvinist.

What are you implying?

From Wikipedia:

The Armenians (Armenian: Հայեր, Hayer) are a nation and ethnic group originating in the Caucasus and in the Armenian Highlands. A large concentration of them has remained there, especially in Armenia, but many of them are also scattered elsewhere throughout the world (see Armenian diaspora). The Armenians have had a significant presence in countries such as Georgia, Iran, Russia, and Ukraine due to their proximity to Armenia. After the Armenian Genocide, a large influx of survivors fled to France, the United States, Argentina, the Levant and other countries that welcomed the Armenians. There are an estimated 8 million Armenians around the world.[17]

Wow i don't think that's what i wanted to say!

ARMINIAN

What cann i say i'm a Calvanast?

 

[JohnGill]

There are two lectures by Phil Johnson called "Dead Right" on Fundamentalism from the 2005 and 2006 Shepherd's Conferences that go into the issue in more detail. They are free to download if you are registered with the Shepherd's Fellowship.

I registered but cannot find them.

It's still set up like a "store" with checkout, etc. but everything is now free, apparently. With the massive amount of material on there, it does take some time to find your way around. I've only scratched the surface so far.

To find the 2005 message, once logged in, click:

Resources-->Shepherd's Conference-->Audio Downloads-->2005-->Seminar Sessions. Dead Right: The Failure of Fundamentalism by Phil Johnson is on the second page. Follow the same procedure to find the follow up message of the same title from 2006.

Once you select your messages and "check out" they are held in "Media Downloads" for you to download at your leisure. This really helps if you are selecting a large number of messages for future reference and don't necessarily want to download them all right now. It keeps you from having to search for them again.

You're buying me a bigger ipod!

Thank you for that.

 

[Brian Withnell]

A thought: what will those of you who agree with Mr. Baucham do about all the Public School teachers & administrators in your churches? What tools will you give the parents with a less than stellar academic history (the ones who graduated with minimal ability to read write and figger themselves) to teach their kids inbetween jobs # 1, 2 & 3 (for both parents)?

Being a public school teacher, I personally would not mind if every family decided to home school their children and put me out of work. While I knew a public school teacher that did not do it for love of children, I know the vast majority do it for the children. Math teachers (I am one) could easily go elsewhere and make more, so the only reason I can see for teaching is love of kids.

I personally believe home schooling would be better for nearly anyone than public schooling. There may be exceptions, but that is what it would be, exceptional cases.

 

[Brian Withnell]

The problem with bringing the PS teachers into a Church school setting, is that they require a certain wage that most Church schools cannot afford without becoming another pricey private school, thus cutting out those families that are in most need. Now if we would be willing to hire the mothers of children in the school (ones that don't have littles still at home) and single adults to fill those roles, there then would be a way to make it work for everyone (I've seen this happen).

If the taxes that presently go toward public schools were left to the parents that put their children in private schools, the problem of money for private schools would near completely go away. (I know my property taxes are well more than 1/20th of my pay as a public school teacher -- if I taught 20 students in a class, and I received a good portion of the money saved if parents didn't have to pay property tax, it would be a wash.)

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

When my family and I moved from Chicago to Phoenix, we enrolled our son in the local elementary school. It was not long before we were getting calls that he was being held after school for reasons like forgetting to bring pencils to school, or forgetting his class notebook. The little guy would meet us after detention teary eyed.

My wife and I were both university professors at the time, so we pulled my son out of public school and started teaching him at home when we were not working during the day.

Initially, it was tough separating Mom and Dad's roles when teaching our son. Sometimes we would become very frustrated with him. Losing our patience was a problem we finally overcame. We taught him three hours each day and he spent another two or three hours working on his own. We home-schooled our son from grades four through twelve.

For elementary school material we reviewed traditional school materials and selected what we thought were useful texts. It was an ad-hoc approach and we focused each day's instructions on a single subject. I spent time teaching my son some of the great messages and stories from the bible. I had him complete some biblical text studies and write papers on the materials.

For high school we used the materials and curriculum from The American School. We selected this school because of its reputation (used by State Dept. employees, movies star kids, etc.), for the school's ability to generate official transcripts, graded tests, actual science labs, 100 year history, and its regional accreditation. Lastly, I walked my son through the Dictionary of Cultural Literacy.

In December last year he graduated from ASU with a degree in Computer Information Systems and a 3.2 GPA. He recently completed a six-month internship at Intel Corporation and is now looking for a full-time position with one of the government security agencies.

The upsides of home schooling were enormously beneficial. My son completed High School in two years and had no problems being accepted at ASU.

The negatives were mainly socially related. My son missed the social interaction, proms, and dating. We pushed him into some social activities like volunteering in some of the local schools' community outreach programs. Nevertheless, my son was quite isolated throughout his education. ASU was an eye opener for him, he struggled to fit into a daily cadence of attending real classes with lots of other students. After his freshman year, he blossomed and came into his own. Mom and Dad still worry about this young man who has never went on a date or even so much as held a girl's hand. Dad can only hope that he won't marry the first young lady that pays any sort of attention to him!

 

[calgal]

Why make this a mandate? Are the churches then going to waste time and energy prosecuting the families who refuse to homeschool?

 

[LadyFlynt]

The problem with bringing the PS teachers into a Church school setting, is that they require a certain wage that most Church schools cannot afford without becoming another pricey private school, thus cutting out those families that are in most need. Now if we would be willing to hire the mothers of children in the school (ones that don't have littles still at home) and single adults to fill those roles, there then would be a way to make it work for everyone (I've seen this happen).

If the taxes that presently go toward public schools were left to the parents that put their children in private schools, the problem of money for private schools would near completely go away. (I know my property taxes are well more than 1/20th of my pay as a public school teacher -- if I taught 20 students in a class, and I received a good portion of the money saved if parents didn't have to pay property tax, it would be a wash.)

Many of those *in need* do not, and cannot afford to, own property. They don't pay property taxes. They literally have a paycheck that comes in (if they are that fortunate) and that same paycheck goes out to pay as many bills as possible and put food in the fridge. There is rarely, if ever, anything left over.

 

[Hamalas]

The problem with bringing the PS teachers into a Church school setting, is that they require a certain wage that most Church schools cannot afford without becoming another pricey private school, thus cutting out those families that are in most need. Now if we would be willing to hire the mothers of children in the school (ones that don't have littles still at home) and single adults to fill those roles, there then would be a way to make it work for everyone (I've seen this happen).

How about vouchers!

That works great when the economy's not in the hole and you have someone who can afford to cover those vouchers.

Actually, vouchers save the taxpayers money.

 

[he beholds]

Good thread!

A thought: what will those of you who agree with Mr. Baucham do about all the Public School teachers & administrators in your churches? What tools will you give the parents with a less than stellar academic history (the ones who graduated with minimal ability to read write and figger themselves) to teach their kids inbetween jobs # 1, 2 & 3 (for both parents)?

Actually, there have been several studies proving that the level of education the parents received had little to no effect on how well the children do. There are many cases where a woman with no more than a high-school degree had better educated children than a couple with several PhD degrees between them! Basically, the success of children in school is related to the amount of time and energy put into it by the parents.

Also, as regards the public school workers. As much as I loved being homeschooled, homeschooling is not for everyone. I plan on doing it with my kids, but some people don't have the resources necessary. A large scale exodus from public schools would require the creation of many new private Christian schools. Why not invite those teachers who are qualified to teach at the Christian schools?

My husband teaches at a public school. We had hoped to both teach in Xian schools for a few years, but we got pregnant a lot sooner than we expected, so I quit teaching just as my husband completed his Masters and was about to start teaching. When I taught at the Xian school, I made $16,000/year and had no health benefits. I think this would be impossible for the head of household. My husband was sad to realize that he would not be able to teach at a Xian school. He never went to a public school (not from kindergarten through his master's) and did not want to spend 30 years teaching in one. However, he does now enjoy his job and has found a place for Xian teachers in the PS. I think his preference is still to teach or principal a Xian school or teach at a Xian college, but for now he is content. He has found that there are Xian students and he teaches the Puritans and expresses his worldview.

However, we hope to homeschool our children.

The biggest disadvantage I can think of with homeschooling is that homeschooled kids tend to be more nervous about socializing with strangers--maybe a good thing, maybe not. I know I was terribly introverted until I attended college, and most of my brothers are the same way.

However, this disadvantage is considerably outweighed by the fact that we as homeschoolers are leagues ahead of our contemporaries in the public school. My social deficiencies were (partly) remedied during my college years; I'm much better about speaking with strangers, which is nice when it comes to evangelism.

I think it depends on your situation, maybe. One of my best friends was homeschooled, and of the five kids, none is shy or introverted. Plus, they know how to speak to adults and kids of all ages, b/c they aren't being trained by other six year olds.

The problem with bringing the PS teachers into a Church school setting, is that they require a certain wage that most Church schools cannot afford without becoming another pricey private school, thus cutting out those families that are in most need. Now if we would be willing to hire the mothers of children in the school (ones that don't have littles still at home) and single adults to fill those roles, there then would be a way to make it work for everyone (I've seen this happen).

As a mom who is qualified to teach at a Xian school, I still would choose to just teach my kids at home. But if for some reason homeschooling won't work out, that's what I'd have to do, teach at my kids' school.
I think there has to be another way to pay teachers living wages. Even my single friends that I taught with were still unable to live on their own with our salary at the Xian school. I would have literally made more than double what I made if I chose to teach in a PS.
Instead of doing capital campaigns to build new gymnasiums, perhaps the schools can focus on raising more money for the educators, since that is why the kids are there.

Take the light out of the world and separation is not a good thing watch out for the baptist view of separation... how far do we go with separation?

Brother, I hear what you are saying, but where in Scripture are we told to use our children as missionaries? Nowhere. I know that some see me as radical, but to leave a child in a system of education that does all that it can to inculcate an anti-Biblical worldview is abusive to the child. I agree that the church has done precious little in this area to assist parents. That needs to change.

Great point! I have heard a sermon that expounded on the great commission and actually said that the first and foremost place for discipleship is at home. We are to be discipling our children! The best way to do this is spending a lot of time with them and teaching them what you want them to learn as a part of that discipleship, and the best way to do that is homeschool them--although I don't think it is the ONLY way.

 

[The Deeps]

Take the light out of the world and separation is not a good thing watch out for the baptist view of separation... how far do we go with separation?

Brother, I hear what you are saying, but where in Scripture are we told to use our children as missionaries? Nowhere. I know that some see me as radical, but to leave a child in a system of education that does all that it can to inculcate an anti-Biblical worldview is abusive to the child. I agree that the church has done precious little in this area to assist parents. That needs to change.

Again... I home school my children.

My Son just turned 4 and he is reading books. My daughter is 2 and she can spell her name.

But my reasons for homeschooling are not one of protection but education. I have seen enough homeschooling parents looking toward homeschooling as if it in and of itself is the deliverer. Please understand I am just bringing up a call to modesty.

Don't forget Our children are dirty. We as Parents are dirty. How can we protect the world from deprave, sheltered home school kids who's parents are preparing them for heaven and not earth? Are we only here on earth to prepare for heaven?

We need a balance in perspective here... i am just trying to avoid become Essenes. I have seen a-lot of extreme reactions in fundamental circles.

 

[LadyFlynt]

Take the light out of the world and separation is not a good thing watch out for the baptist view of separation... how far do we go with separation?

Brother, I hear what you are saying, but where in Scripture are we told to use our children as missionaries? Nowhere. I know that some see me as radical, but to leave a child in a system of education that does all that it can to inculcate an anti-Biblical worldview is abusive to the child. I agree that the church has done precious little in this area to assist parents. That needs to change.

Again... I home school my children.

My Son just turned 4 and he is reading books. My daughter is 2 and she can spell her name.

But my reasons for homeschooling are not one of protection but education. I have seen enough homeschooling parents looking toward homeschooling as if it in and of itself is the deliverer. Please understand I am just bringing up a call to modesty.

Don't forget Our children are dirty. We as Parents are dirty. How can we protect the world from deprave, sheltered home school kids who's parents are preparing them for heaven and not earth? Are we only here on earth to prepare for heaven?

We need a balance in perspective here... i am just trying to avoid become Essenes. I have seen a-lot of extreme reactions in fundamental circles.

When some of us have suffered abuse within the school system (more than one in my case, as I have lived many places), "balance" is the last thing we feel towards it...and don't expect otherwise.

 

[The Deeps]

Watch out for itching ears... feelings have a tendency to make our ears itch.

 

[LadyFlynt]

Watch out for itching ears... feelings have a tendency to make our ears itch.

No, it's not a "feeling", it's a fact. And my job as a parent is to #1 protect MY children and #2 make certain they have a Christian education.

You also show ignorance of parents that homeschool for varying reasons. Even those that do so to "protect" their children, do not hide them away from the world or neglect teaching them how to deal with the world. If my child is in someone else's care the majority of their week, I have little to no control over what happens to them, it's a simple fact.


(ps, please check your signature you're a few lines too long)

 

[SLutherG]

Overreaching

With all respect brothers, I have a child in public schools and one who will be next year and I teach special education in the public school system. I have taught them the 1st 50 questions of the Childrens Catechism, they have learned the Ten Commandments and have memorized the Apostles Creed. I am very proud of my children.

I am not brain washing students. My daughter does not dress like a hooker and frankly it is very judgemental to imply that God fearing parents can't raise God fearing children while they public school. While education is very important it is NOT the be all end all of child rearing. Are there things I have to unteach them? Of course, but that would be the case if they went to a private school as well.

I find this kid of discussion upsetting. I would encourage the best of you to dig for scripture that supports an all homeschool or private school position.

 

[Knoxienne]

"No, it's not a "feeling", it's a fact. And my job as a parent is to #1 protect MY children and #2 make certain they have a Christian education...even those that do so to "protect" their children, do not hide them away from the world or neglect teaching them how to deal with the world. If my child is in someone else's care the majority of their week, I have little to no control over what happens to them, it's a simple fact."

 

[LadyFlynt]

With all respect brothers, I have a child in public schools and one who will be next year and I teach special education in the public school system. I have taught them the 1st 50 questions of the Childrens Catechism, they have learned the Ten Commandments and have memorized the Apostles Creed. I am very proud of my children.

I am not brain washing students. My daughter does not dress like a hooker and frankly it is very judgemental to imply that God fearing parents can't raise God fearing children while they public school. While education is very important it is NOT the be all end all of child rearing. Are there things I have to unteach them? Of course, but that would be the case if they went to a private school as well.

I find this kid of discussion upsetting. I would encourage the best of you to dig for scripture that supports an all homeschool or private school position.

Do as you will. I understand when a family honestly has no other option...that is a failure of the church and my heart breaks for those people. May Gd's Grace sustain them. Others just simply want to do as they will. That's on them.

Does homeschooling produce "perfect" children? No, absolutely no! However, there is no moral benefit to having our children, during their most formative years, handed over to secular society and a humanist government that both have fallen over into an anti-Christian agenda. Scriptural principle? Sure. My husband and I are the parents. WE are responsible for OUR children's education and welfare. NOT the government. We should make certain that that education is as Gd honouring as possible. I've yet to find anything Gd honouring in the government education system.

As for the SBC "Mandating" the withdrawal from the government school system: fine and dandy, but they also need to make certain that EVERY SINGLE ONE of their members are able to transfer to alternate education or help provide the means.

 

[refbaptdude]

I find this kid of discussion upsetting.

Samuel,

I also find such talk very disturbing.

 

[LadyFlynt]

I find this kid of discussion upsetting.

Samuel,

I also find such talk very disturbing.

The fact that there are more reasons than just, "a better education" (also a major reason I home educate) should not upset anyone.

 

[he beholds]

But my reasons for homeschooling are not one of protection but education. I have seen enough homeschooling parents looking toward homeschooling as if it in and of itself is the deliverer. Please understand I am just bringing up a call to modesty.

Don't forget Our children are dirty. We as Parents are dirty. How can we protect the world from deprave, sheltered home school kids who's parents are preparing them for heaven and not earth? Are we only here on earth to prepare for heaven?

We need a balance in perspective here... i am just trying to avoid become Essenes. I have seen a-lot of extreme reactions in fundamental circles.

I think maybe your advice is good, but not very applicable here. You won't find many (any) "fundamental" types, as far as I know.

And you are right, parents are guilty of sin and will sin against their children. However, sending them to school gives a plethora of other opportunities to be sinned against, and those situations may not be dealt with biblically.
Do we want our children to be taught by a grown-up or by 25 kids their own ages? In a school setting, especially past elementary school, students are not under the care of one single teacher who can really get to know them, as they see maybe six teachers throughout the day, and those six teachers care for 125 students or so.

I think it is perfectly fine to keep your kids at home for more than one reason. Sure, your one reason of better education may sound right to you, but some of us will be in situations where the schools are excellent, or we could find a private one that is excellent, and we would still choose to homeschool our babes.

Where, besides your own opinion, are we told that it is wrong to make decisions based on our want to protect our little ones, even if we are being over-cautious.

With all respect brothers, I have a child in public schools and one who will be next year and I teach special education in the public school system. I have taught them the 1st 50 questions of the Childrens Catechism, they have learned the Ten Commandments and have memorized the Apostles Creed. I am very proud of my children.

I am not brain washing students. My daughter does not dress like a hooker and frankly it is very judgemental to imply that God fearing parents can't raise God fearing children while they public school. While education is very important it is NOT the be all end all of child rearing. Are there things I have to unteach them? Of course, but that would be the case if they went to a private school as well.

I find this kid of discussion upsetting. I would encourage the best of you to dig for scripture that supports an all homeschool or private school position.

I think most of us on the homeschooling side can agree 100% that education is not the be all and end all, and that is why even minimally educated parents know that they can accomplish more by keeping kids at home rather than sending them to school.

I do know, however, that God's grace follows our children and in fact, goes before them, and His will will be done, whether they are in home or in school. I am just hoping to train them as I best can, and for me that involves my being their primary caregiver. We all have to make this choice: how will I obey God? We read God's instruction to train up a child in the way of the Lord, and then look at our circumstances, our abilities, our understanding of what that means, and the needs of our children to determine the best way for our family to accomplish this great task. Some of us will choose homeschooling, others private, others cyber, others public, and maybe others will use multiple methods. I think some of would argue that the easiest way to raise our kids in the admonition of the Lord is homeschooling, but we all, I think, would understand that for a small few, that may in fact not be the easiest. For instance, if a parent must work or the kid starves, we would see that training a starving child would not be the easiest way to teach them about God's love.

-----Added 3/12/2009 at 04:41:06 EST-----

I find this kid of discussion upsetting.

Samuel,

I also find such talk very disturbing.

The fact that there are more reasons than just, "a better education" (also a major reason I home educate) should not upset anyone.

Ditto!!!

 

[refbaptdude]

The fact that there are more reasons than just, "a better education" (also a major reason I home educate) should not upset anyone.

LadyFlynt I have no problem with your statement above. My concern is more inline with what Ken wrote. -

I know it is easier to do so, but we must be careful not to use a broad brush when condemning public schools. Not all school boards are the same. I have worked in 3 different school districts and they are very different. There seems to be some hasty generalization going on.

And we should be careful that this is not a divisive issue in our local churches. Our unity is around the truth of the gospel not individual educational choices or personal convictions of families.