Seminary Accreditation?

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This is just a question but what is the size of these apartments that cost less than $400 and less than $600? How many of these students have multiple children? How many of these students are second-career?
 
Benjamin,

I am not sure I would call Dr. Beeke, Dr. Murray, Dr. Pipa, Dr. Smith, Dr. Shaw, and the rest of the faculties at GPTS and PRTS not "real professors".

For the sake of clarity and charity, the context of Ken's comment was not PRTS or GPTS but another entity altogether.

Second, I don't know the size of the apartments in which our students live but that's not quite what I reported. I reported what they spend. Many of our students live together in apartments and houses. My wife and I lived comfortably in a one-bedroom apartment and then a two-BR apt in seminary and we were comfortable.

I did specify "single" students. I don't know what the survey says about married students. I know that many of our students take 4 years to do their MDiv degrees, several are married with children and they are doing well. Faculty advisors meet with students in small groups every week during term and we meet with them individually also and we do make sure that they are well. There is a great community here. E.g., every year the OPCs provide a great lot of food to students for the Thanksgiving holiday. Other local congregations and families take students in and make sure that their basic needs are met. One family has fed a dozen or more students every Monday night during term, at no cost to the students, for several years.

I tell prospective students "I can't tell you how God will provide but I can testify to the marvelous ways in which he has provided for our students over the course of 30 years." Some of them even leave weighing more than when they came!

>:0
 
Ken,

If we're comparing apples with apples, then I wouldn't say that WSC is "very expensive." People sometimes assume that is the case because we're in southern California. In fact, our tuition is on the low end. Our cost of living is more reasonable than people think. Many of our students share apartments and houses and they pay very reasonable rent. It's possible to walk and bicycle 12 months a year.

People who are interested in the latest info should check with Katie Chappell or Mark MacVey in our admissions office

888 480 8474

I wouldn't call WSC "very expensive," but it certainly is not on the "low end," either. The "low end" are seminaries like Southern, NOBTS, etc., which are less than 200 bucks per credit hour. Also, Westminster charges some pretty hefty fees for stuff that is free from other Seminaries (such as the thousand and fifty dollar "pastoral internship" fee.).

However, their (or, your) fees are certainly reasonable, and are within the "norm."
 
It would be helpful to hear from the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, and the Canadian Reformed and the Protestant Reformed churches as to why they do not accredit their schools.
I suspect they would say that accreditation is an ecclesiastical function. Period!
The discussion in this thread has been helpful.
 
Ken,

If we're comparing apples with apples, then I wouldn't say that WSC is "very expensive." People sometimes assume that is the case because we're in southern California. In fact, our tuition is on the low end. Our cost of living is more reasonable than people think. Many of our students share apartments and houses and they pay very reasonable rent. It's possible to walk and bicycle 12 months a year.

People who are interested in the latest info should check with Katie Chappell or Mark MacVey in our admissions office

888 480 8474

Absolutely! I was using the term 'very expensive' in comparison to 'nearly free' online seminaries.
 
Are there many Reformed seminaries that ARE NOT accredited?
The North American Reformed Seminary is unaccredited, online, and free. And I would love to participate one day...

WSC is accredited, brick and morter, and very expensive. All things being equal, wouldn't you rather get your degree there? Or WTS? Or RTS? etc. Even if unaccredited schools have their place, wouldn't we all rather attend real classes with real professors with a real library and a real chapel with real guest lecturers? I know I would. Maybe that is what retirement is for.

I am not sure I would call Dr. Beeke, Dr. Murray, Dr. Pipa, Dr. Smith, Dr. Shaw, and the rest of the faculties at GPTS and PRTS not "real professors".

I was referring to 'online' seminaries with only 'virtual' professors.

As an aside, I consider Larry Bray a friend and am sure NARS has a useful place in God's kingdom.
 
I wouldn't call WSC "very expensive," but it certainly is not on the "low end," either. The "low end" are seminaries like Southern, NOBTS, etc., which are less than 200 bucks per credit hour. Also, Westminster charges some pretty hefty fees for stuff that is free from other Seminaries (such as the thousand and fifty dollar "pastoral internship" fee.).

Thus I guess we have to define our apples. I was thinking of RTS, WTSP, the Master's, Talbot and other non-denominational seminaries. Covenant Sem charges $435 per credit hour. WTS is $370 per credit hour. RTS is $360 per credit hour.

Tuition per credit hour at WSC is $350.00

For what it's worth our students have not complained to me that they are being over charged. We really do work hard to keep our costs and fees down. Our students pay only about 40% of the cost of their education. We raise the rest. We're thankful to our faithful supporters who see the value in having a solid, confessional Reformed seminary on the West coast.

We now have over 800 graduates and alumni serving Christ all over the globe.

This summer Office Hours is focusing on three alumni who are serving Christ in Israel, SE Asia, and Turkey.

Here's an interview with three students and with our Director of Admissions, Mark MacVey, where they address some of the questions about cost of living etc

http://www.netfilehost.com/wscal/OfficeHours/09.08.09Students.mp3
 
My alma mater is $47,520 for a M.Div. vs. $38,500 for WSCal (including Grk/Heb) . . . and you get to graduate with your faith intact! Can you spell b-a-r-g-a-i-n?
 
Just for comparison's sake GPTS is $150/credit hour, PRTS is $190/credit hour, RPTS is $255/credit hour, and my unholy alma mater PTS is $280/credit hour.
 
Ken,

If we're comparing apples with apples, then I wouldn't say that WSC is "very expensive." People sometimes assume that is the case because we're in southern California. In fact, our tuition is on the low end. Our cost of living is more reasonable than people think. Many of our students share apartments and houses and they pay very reasonable rent. It's possible to walk and bicycle 12 months a year.

People who are interested in the latest info should check with Katie Chappell or Mark MacVey in our admissions office

888 480 8474

I wouldn't call WSC "very expensive," but it certainly is not on the "low end," either. The "low end" are seminaries like Southern, NOBTS, etc., which are less than 200 bucks per credit hour. Also, Westminster charges some pretty hefty fees for stuff that is free from other Seminaries (such as the thousand and fifty dollar "pastoral internship" fee.).

However, their (or, your) fees are certainly reasonable, and are within the "norm."

To be fair, the prices you quote for Southern and NOBTS are for members of a Southern Baptist Church. If you are not a member of one of those churches, the price jumps to over 400 per hr. Actually NOBTS still has a special going on and is keeping the tuition under 200 from all. It is in an effort to rebuild the school post-Katrina.

Even with the cheap education one has to determine the quality of education one is receiving. No offense to NOBTS, but I would much rather pay more and get an education from something Reformed or at least quasi-Reformed.
 
Ken,

If we're comparing apples with apples, then I wouldn't say that WSC is "very expensive." People sometimes assume that is the case because we're in southern California. In fact, our tuition is on the low end. Our cost of living is more reasonable than people think. Many of our students share apartments and houses and they pay very reasonable rent. It's possible to walk and bicycle 12 months a year.

People who are interested in the latest info should check with Katie Chappell or Mark MacVey in our admissions office

888 480 8474

I wouldn't call WSC "very expensive," but it certainly is not on the "low end," either. The "low end" are seminaries like Southern, NOBTS, etc., which are less than 200 bucks per credit hour. Also, Westminster charges some pretty hefty fees for stuff that is free from other Seminaries (such as the thousand and fifty dollar "pastoral internship" fee.).

However, their (or, your) fees are certainly reasonable, and are within the "norm."

To be fair, the prices you quote for Southern and NOBTS are for members of a Southern Baptist Church. If you are not a member of one of those churches, the price jumps to over 400 per hr. Actually NOBTS still has a special going on and is keeping the tuition under 200 from all. It is in an effort to rebuild the school post-Katrina.

Even with the cheap education one has to determine the quality of education one is receiving. No offense to NOBTS, but I would much rather pay more and get an education from something Reformed or at least quasi-Reformed.

brother,

Actually you are incorrect here. All you have to do to get the discounted rate, at any of the Southern Baptist Seminaries, is to sign a statement saying you adhere to the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message. The 2000 BF & M is VERY general, and other than church government and the issue of credo vs. Paedo, could (probably) be signed by a Presbyterian, in good conscience (and actually, I have a Credobaptist Presbyterian Church near my house {Houston}...not sure how that works. I am not an expert of Presbyterians, but that seems inherently contradictory).
 
No offense, but I went to Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary for a semester and I just got off the Souther Baptist Theological Seminary website. In both cases, you have to be a member of an SBC church to receive the discount. At SWBTS, I had to get a letter from my church stating that I was a member of XYZ church and that this church was a member of the SBC. Only then could I receive the discount.

---------- Post added at 10:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 AM ----------

Out of curiosity, which Presbyterian church is credobaptist? I go to church in Houston and was unaware of one.
 
Just for comparison's sake GPTS is $150/credit hour, PRTS is $190/credit hour, RPTS is $255/credit hour, and my unholy alma mater PTS is $280/credit hour.

This gets us back to apples again.

Denominational schools receive funding from the denomination and the PCUSA is a very wealthy, old-money denomination. It is, as you suggest, a problematic school for those with confessional commitments or for those who hold the biblical view of Scripture. I suppose there are other ways in which getting an education at a mainline sem would be problematic.

Joel Beeke and Joey Pipa are friends and colleagues but those schools are not accredited in the usual sense of that word (e.g., regional accreditation or ATS). At the same time we are alike in that we are each confessional and conservative and seeking to serve the NAPARC churches.

Another factor to consider is size. Seminaries come in small, medium, and large.

GPTS, MARS, RTS/A, and PRTS are (for now) small schools. WSC was a still a small school (75 students) when I enrolled in 1984 but has since grown. There are advantages to attending a small school (e.g., student:teacher ratio) but smaller schools don't always have the facilities (e.g., library or support staff) that a larger school might have.

WSC is a middle-sized school (150 students; approx 120 FTE). We have limited our enrollment to 200. Our library has grown considerably since my student days! If one knows where to look in the library it's possible to see where the old wall was and how much it has expanded (and continues to expand in real books and in electronic journal/resource collection. Still, we have a very good student:teacher ratio.

WTS/P, Covenant, RTS (e.g., Orlando or Jackson or the considered as a system) are large schools (but not as large as Fuller or DTS).

There are a number of factors in comparing school. We might also consider location. Most Reformed seminaries are located in major metro areas or have migrated there. That affects cost of living but also presents different opportunities for ministry preparation. Some are in cold-weather locations and others in sun-belt locations (to where a good bit of the population shifted in the 1970s and 80s).

I'm also learning from the administration that schools calculate and report their costs differently. I don't work in the admin so I don't know the details but that's worth investigating.
 
For what it's worth, I have been a vocal proponent of places like PRTS on the PB. However, if you are speaking of the traditionally accredited schools (probably the best choice for most students), there are other issues to consider besides the sticker price.

1. What are your goals? If it is further academic study, what record does this institution have for placing graduates in the kinds of grad schools you would be interested in attending?

2. How accepted are the graduates of this school in your intended denomination? Will you be looked at as some kind of cyclops by your colleagues, limited in your mobility, and constantly explaining away your alma mater? In many denominational groups, seminary affinity and the relationships formed during seminary are important in an on-going way. Regardless of your personal beliefs, would you really want to be the only graduate from Crazy Leftwing Seminary X,Y,Z in your judicatory?

3. After interviewing 500 or so ordinands, I cannot say strongly enough: Select a seminary that will actually educate you, train you for ministry, and graduate you better prepared for ministry. While there are plenty of exceptions, too many men emerge from seminary ill suited to ministry and beset with a host of odd dysfunctionalities acquired in seminary. For example, while a PhD program is not expected to strengthen your spiritual and confessional commitments, a M.Div. should! A few bucks saved cannot overcome the disadvantage of attending a typical believe-anything mainline denominational seminary or a school that prides itself in disabusing students of their "foolish" conservative ideas about the Bible.

The points Dr. Clark makes are exactly on target. There are alternative ways to manage the money issues (e.g., grants, scholarships, spouse working, elongating the process beyond three years, etc.). I would probably opt for a PRTS if returning to seminary. However, it is very difficult to beat Westminster (east or west), RTS, or Southern when it comes to solid schools. If my choice was WSC or a less expensive liberal denominational school, no contest. It would be Escondido any time.

If you are a newbie looking at seminaries, be careful! As an old sys theo prof once told me (he started off as a farmer before seminary), "Select you ruts very carefully. You are likely to be in them for a very long time."
 
No offense, but I went to Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary for a semester and I just got off the Souther Baptist Theological Seminary website. In both cases, you have to be a member of an SBC church to receive the discount. At SWBTS, I had to get a letter from my church stating that I was a member of XYZ church and that this church was a member of the SBC. Only then could I receive the discount.

No offense taken. I know that used to, all of the Southern Baptist Seminaries had an agreement one could sign, in lieu of an endorsing SBC church. I am not sure if SWBTS still does it, but I know for a fact that Southern and NOBTS (before they opened the tuition rates up to everyone) still have it.

SBTS – Future Students – Covenant Agreement

---------- Post added at 10:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 AM ----------

[/COLOR]Out of curiosity, which Presbyterian church is credobaptist? I go to church in Houston and was unaware of one.

I cannot seem to find it. Strange. Perhaps it was this one:

Frequently Asked Questions | Bethel Church of Houston

Which apparently used to call itself "Presbyterian." I believe I had found it under the Together for the Gospel cooperation map, but the people under whom it was listed, now have "no church specified"...
 
Students from a different denominational background may qualify to receive the Southern Baptist rate for tuition when they affiliate with a SBC church and affirm a call to service within the SBC. The student must commit to and abide by the Covenant Agreement for Southern Baptist Tuition Rates.

Notice again that you have to affiliate with an SBC church.
 
Students from a different denominational background may qualify to receive the Southern Baptist rate for tuition when they affiliate with a SBC church and affirm a call to service within the SBC. The student must commit to and abide by the Covenant Agreement for Southern Baptist Tuition Rates.

Notice again that you have to affiliate with an SBC church.

The participation with an approved church, is no different than the requirements with any other Seminary in the world, including Westminster.
 
Correction, WSC is not offering some discount as long as you are affiliated with a Reformed church. SBC on the other hand is requiring students to at least be associated with an SBC church to receive the discount.

All seminaries require students to be a part of some church, but that is an admissions requirement, not a tuition discount requirement.
 
Correction, WSC is not offering some discount as long as you are affiliated with a Reformed church. SBC on the other hand is requiring students to at least be associated with an SBC church to receive the discount.

All seminaries require students to be a part of some church, but that is an admissions requirement, not a tuition discount requirement.

It is a moot point. Westminster requires you to be part of a church, and I am certain that they have requirements for what churches are permissible (You could certainly not be a part of a Jehovah's witness assembly, I am sure).

The only distinction between those who get the discount, and those who do not, is the acceptance of the BF & M. ALL students are required to affiliate with an appropriate church, just like every other seminary in the world.
 
It is not a moot point. I am pointing out that you cannot receive the discount by going to a Presbyterian church as long as you sign off on the BF&M.
 
If I'm not mistaken, the Covenant Agreement for SBC tuition rates indicates affiliation and service in the SBC is required not just while you're in seminary but AFTER as well. In other words, to get SBC rates, you must BECOME SBC.
 
If I'm not mistaken, the Covenant Agreement for SBC tuition rates indicates affiliation and service in the SBC is required not just while you're in seminary but AFTER as well. In other words, to get SBC rates, you must BECOME SBC.

Bingo
 
Thus I guess we have to define our apples. I was thinking of RTS, WTSP, the Master's, Talbot and other non-denominational seminaries. Covenant Sem charges $435 per credit hour. WTS is $370 per credit hour. RTS is $360 per credit hour.

Tuition per credit hour at WSC is $350.00

RTS has an excellent discount that if your church is willing to pay for 1/3 of your tuition, RTS will waive 1/3. That brings the student cost down to $120/hour.



I cannot seem to find it. Strange. Perhaps it was this one:

http://bethelofhouston.com/faq]Frequently Asked Questions | Bethel Church of Houston[/url]

Which apparently used to call itself "Presbyterian." I believe I had found it under the Together for the Gospel cooperation map, but the people under whom it was listed, now have "no church specified"...

Bethel is not Presbyterian. It is (at best) independent congregation Reformed. There is no such thing as a Presbyterian credobaptist church. Any Presbyterian man who would be willing to sign the BF&M merely for a few bucks off tuition should not be a pastor. Has has already shown himself a hireling. (And for the record, the same would be true of a baptist who signed a paedobaptist statement for money.)
 
Thus I guess we have to define our apples. I was thinking of RTS, WTSP, the Master's, Talbot and other non-denominational seminaries. Covenant Sem charges $435 per credit hour. WTS is $370 per credit hour. RTS is $360 per credit hour.

Tuition per credit hour at WSC is $350.00

RTS has an excellent discount that if your church is willing to pay for 1/3 of your tuition, RTS will waive 1/3. That brings the student cost down to $120/hour.

That is a great deal. Do you know if that applies only to the MDiv?
 
Bethel is not Presbyterian. It is (at best) independent congregation Reformed. There is no such thing as a Presbyterian credobaptist church. Any Presbyterian man who would be willing to sign the BF&M merely for a few bucks off tuition should not be a pastor. Has has already shown himself a hireling. (And for the record, the same would be true of a baptist who signed a paedobaptist statement for money.)

:amen: I am appalled that any Christian, much less a future minister, would even consider just telling the school what they want to hear to save some money. Signing and agreeing to a confession that one does not truly hold to is lying and I would hope honoring the 9th commandment would be more important than getting a discount.
 
Thus I guess we have to define our apples. I was thinking of RTS, WTSP, the Master's, Talbot and other non-denominational seminaries. Covenant Sem charges $435 per credit hour. WTS is $370 per credit hour. RTS is $360 per credit hour.

Tuition per credit hour at WSC is $350.00

RTS has an excellent discount that if your church is willing to pay for 1/3 of your tuition, RTS will waive 1/3. That brings the student cost down to $120/hour.

That is a great deal. Do you know if that applies only to the MDiv?
I believe it applies to all degrees, but I am not sure. I am almost positive it is both MDiv and MA, might be DMin as well.
 
FYI, Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary has been in the application process for associate membership in ATS and is expected to be received at that level by the end of the school year. Full membership is then on the horizon.
 
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Thus I guess we have to define our apples. I was thinking of RTS, WTSP, the Master's, Talbot and other non-denominational seminaries. Covenant Sem charges $435 per credit hour. WTS is $370 per credit hour. RTS is $360 per credit hour.

Tuition per credit hour at WSC is $350.00

RTS has an excellent discount that if your church is willing to pay for 1/3 of your tuition, RTS will waive 1/3. That brings the student cost down to $120/hour.



I cannot seem to find it. Strange. Perhaps it was this one:

http://bethelofhouston.com/faq]Frequently Asked Questions | Bethel Church of Houston[/url]

Which apparently used to call itself "Presbyterian." I believe I had found it under the Together for the Gospel cooperation map, but the people under whom it was listed, now have "no church specified"...

Bethel is not Presbyterian. It is (at best) independent congregation Reformed. There is no such thing as a Presbyterian credobaptist church.
I would tend to agree with you: however, I have seen, with my own eyes, a church which called it self Presbyterian, and upheld that tradition, with the singular exception of holding to CredoBaptism. It was in Houston: don't know if it is still open. It has been a year since I saw it. I assumed, since the Bethel website indicated they used to at least call themselves "Presbyterian", that they were perhaps the church I had seen. I guess I was wrong.

Any Presbyterian man who would be willing to sign the BF&M merely for a few bucks off tuition should not be a pastor.

I agree. However, there are certain standards to which you must agree, and things which you must believe, to attend any seminary. Simply stating that the Big six's tuition rate "doesn't count" because they give a lower rate for people who agree with their statement of faith, is ridiculous.
 
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