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Who are you speaking about?Some of those who voted that deaconesses were not scriptural come from traditions that have only an office for deacons and not elders. They believe that a deacon is one who has ecclesiastical authority to govern and rule the church, but this is not scriptural. Deacons are not rulers, authoritative teachers, or governors but servants who are given the function of ministering to the needs of others.
Michael,
I agree with the functional aspect of the "Order of Widows" but not in the positional aspect. In other words "widows indeed" should occupy themselves with the work of charity but not as official or ordained ministers.
I guess I have no problem with an Official Position but not ordained or have hands laid upon one... Why an office need those things... Did other offices have hands laid upon and ordained?
Let leave the laying on of hands and ordination to pastors and deacons but let us also have the order of widows and keep to the qualifications of that office......
Michael,
I agree with the functional aspect of the "Order of Widows" but not in the positional aspect. In other words "widows indeed" should occupy themselves with the work of charity but not as official or ordained ministers.
The Bayly Blog has dedicated a significant amount of time to this issue...and they've done so magnificently. This is a great post delving into the issue.
Pastor David Bayly's post sparked a follow up by his brother, Tim (linked above)...here is that post calling out the fact PCA churches are violating BCO:
(David) Let's think for a moment about the meaning of presbyterial life.
If the essence of presbyterianism is elders willingly subjecting themselves to their brethren...
And if ordained elders should never willfully violate the PCA's standards without first submitting their teaching or course-of-action to presbytery for approval...
And if those who come to possess beliefs substantially opposed to settled portions of PCA standards should leave the PCA for a denomination sympathetic to their new convictions rather than mar PCA harmony by staying and fighting...
Then what, pray tell, are we to make of PCA churches actually laying hands upon women (and men) in services of "commissioning" to the diaconal office?
And what are we to make of this overture to the PCA's 2008 General Assembly from the Philadelphia Presbytery asking General Assembly to sanction retroactively the ordination of women to an office clearly forbidden them by PCA standards?
And finally, why has no one sought to discipline these churches and this presbytery?
The irony is so thick you could cut it.
(Thanks for the link, Andrew)
Good points, but not surprising. The PCA (of which I am a member) has been "slouching towards Gommorah" for quite awhile.
There are no female deacons in the Bible, a Scriptural qualification for being a deacon is that you are a man, thus we should not have female deacons today.
So, in Romans 16:1 Pheobe wasn't a diakonon?
She was a servant of the Church. But she wasn't ordained to the office that is spoken of in 1 Timothy 3.
No doubt, brother, and I can tell you that I have shed tears with many of them over the drift of our denomination.Sir, the PCA stills has "a few names...who have not defiled their garments."
Michael, I am not in favor of creating a position. We don't have an "Order of Disciples", do we? That said, I am in favor of widows filling a vital need in the church along with older women. I don't believe it needs to be formalized.
Michael, I am not in favor of creating a position. We don't have an "Order of Disciples", do we? That said, I am in favor of widows filling a vital need in the church along with older women. I don't believe it needs to be formalized.
So, in Romans 16:1 Pheobe wasn't a diakonon?
She was a servant of the Church. But she wasn't ordained to the office that is spoken of in 1 Timothy 3.
Translation: she was a diakonon of the Church but not an ordained diakonon.
She was a renegade driving without a license!
Bill,
I am in favor of recreating a position if it is biblical and exampled by the early church which I quoted those examples.....
In my "ancient church history" class we had an extended discussion on this topic. My understanding is that in every part, division, and region of the church in the early centuries there was an "office" of deaconess, or widow. These women were "set apart" to minister in an official way that differed from the role of every other Christian. In practice these women only worked with other women. The nuns that we all know of from the RCC are the final version of this office.
There are no female deacons in the Bible, a Scriptural qualification for being a deacon is that you are a man, thus we should not have female deacons today.
So, in Romans 16:1 Pheobe wasn't a diakonon?
She was a servant of the Church. But she wasn't ordained to the office that is spoken of in 1 Timothy 3.
Bill,
I am in favor of recreating a position if it is biblical and exampled by the early church which I quoted those examples.....
What examples? I didn't see any clear examples. I asked you earlier. And I just want to be clear because I have not heard of what you are talking about. And I have been around Presbyterian's for a long time. I have been a member of two Presbyterian denominations. Where in the OC does it have the office of Doctors? I have never seen anyone ordained a Doctor. I have seen a degree of doctorate confirmed upon a person for education but I didn't know it was an office of the Church. Where are the qualifications for this ordination?
P.S. You would do well to read the book I referenced and gave you a link to.
She was a servant of the Church. But she wasn't ordained to the office that is spoken of in 1 Timothy 3.
Translation: she was a diakonon of the Church but not an ordained diakonon.
She was a renegade driving without a license!
Dr. Mike Kear gave J. David Kear a thumbs up. They must be related.
......PC....Shakes his head and walks away decrying women drivers.......
Especially since he followed one home from Church tonight going 30 in a 40 MPH limit zone.
So, in Romans 16:1 Pheobe wasn't a diakonon?
She was a servant of the Church. But she wasn't ordained to the office that is spoken of in 1 Timothy 3.
Translation: she was a diakonon of the Church but not an ordained diakonon.
She was a renegade driving without a license!
In my "ancient church history" class we had an extended discussion on this topic. My understanding is that in every part, division, and region of the church in the early centuries there was an "office" of deaconess, or widow. These women were "set apart" to minister in an official way that differed from the role of every other Christian. In practice these women only worked with other women. The nuns that we all know of from the RCC are the final version of this office.
And this is vital in understanding the role of female deaconesses in the ARP and RPCNA correct?
But Tim,
I do think there is authority given to these 7 men. They had to determine where the goods went and for what reasons. There is no such office or job without authority. Even a slave has to make some decisions in order to serve his master properly.
But Rae
It is not an exercise of authority to determine whether or not someone fits paramenters set down by others and there was no exercise of authority in the food delivery.
Certainly other serving ministries do not neccessarily have authority over men vested in them.
I would disagree here. It is an exercise of authority to determine if someone fits parameters. The Elders do it when they are ordaining ministers. They are looking at a set of parameters and determining if the canidates meet the parameters.
And I agreee there are ministries that do not necessarily have authority over men.
BTW Tim, my name is Randy.
I agree 1Tim 3:8-13 plainly tells us the requirments of the deacons are. " Deacons likewise must be dignified , not double-toungued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonestgain. They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. Their wives likewise must be dignefied, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. For those who serve well as deacon gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus." ESV So I don't think Paul contradicts himself in other scriptures.
In my "ancient church history" class we had an extended discussion on this topic. My understanding is that in every part, division, and region of the church in the early centuries there was an "office" of deaconess, or widow. These women were "set apart" to minister in an official way that differed from the role of every other christian. In practice these women only worked with other women. The nuns that we all know of from the RCC are the final version of this office.
In my "ancient church history" class we had an extended discussion on this topic. My understanding is that in every part, division, and region of the church in the early centuries there was an "office" of deaconess, or widow. These women were "set apart" to minister in an official way that differed from the role of every other christian. In practice these women only worked with other women. The nuns that we all know of from the RCC are the final version of this office.
Then we might as well adopt episcopal church government since the distinction between presbyter and bishop was very early as well.