Richard,
I've always had a respect for you on this board. Whether you were dealing with psalmody, the dangers of the cinema, or any other such "minority" topic, I tended to see where you were coming from and agree with you. It pains me to see you posting on these cosmogonic interpretations. Perhaps it shall turn out that I am wrong, when all is said and done. But nevertheless, at the moment, it saddens me to see someone so committed to the Scriptures buying in to the typical claims made about Biblical and ANE literature that could be heard in any liberal, apostate seminary throughout the country, even if such theories are "tweaked" in order to make them more palatable to more orthodox Christians.
Personal comments off. As someone who has taken a deep interest in world mythologies throughout my life, I realize that a "cosmogonic link" could be established between the creation account of almost
any given culture and the account given in Scripture. In my opinion there is no extraordinarily uncommon similarity between the ANE and the Biblical accounts that one could not find in other cultures. Example.
Voluspa:
3: Young were the years when Ymir made his settlement,
there was no sand nor sea nor cool waves;
earth was nowhere nor the sky above,
chaos yawned, grass was there nowhere.
4: First the sons of Bur brought up the earth,
the glorious ones who shaped the world between;
the sun shone from the south on the hall of stones,
then the soil was grown over with green plants.
5: From the south, Sun, companion of the moon,
threw her right hand round the edge of heaven;
Sun did not know where her hall might be,
the starts did not know where their place might be,
the moon did not know what power he had.
6: Then all the Powers went to the thrones of fate,
the sacrosanct gods, and considered this:
to night and her children they gave names,
morning they named and midday,
afternoon and evening, to reckon up the years.
***
17: Until three gods, strong and loving,
came from that company to the world;
they found on land Ash and Embla,
capable of little, lacking in fate.
18: Breath they had not, spirit they had not,
character nor vital spark nor fresh complexions;
breath gave Odin, spirit gave Haenir,
vital spark gave Lodur, and fresh complexions.
Taken from the
Poetic Edda, translated by Carolyne Larrington, pp. 4, 6.
I've known of the
Voluspa since I was a teenager dabbling in Asatru, but I never thought about the sequence of events until the past couple of days. Note the sequence:
1)
Chaos: Without quibbling over words, I think it is fair to portray stanza 3 as a chaotic situation. Snorri seems to speak of a chaotic Ginnungagap between Niflheim and Muspell. No differentiation, no earth, no sky, no sea, just yawning chaos.
2)
The Earth: It says that the sons of Bur "brought up the earth". As she notes in the foreward, in some Norse poems, the earth was made from the body of Ymir, and in some cases it was brought up from the sea. So at least in some Norse traditions, this earth was "brought up from the sea". If I felt rowdy I'd make a fun comparison between the destruction of Ymir and Tiamat and the construction of the earth, but I'll pass.
3)
Plants: At the end of the fourth stanza, plant life is mentioned. The soil is grown over with plants.
4)
Sun, Moon, Stars: Incredibly, the creation of the sun, moon, and stars, is the very next stanza. Even more incredibly, the
explicit purpose of their creation is "
to reckon up the years."
5)
Creation of Man: Three gods then create man and woman. From Snorri we learn that they were made from two trees. Notice that the fundamental things they lacked were
breath and spirit. So, a "Divine Council" [sic] if you will, creates man from pre-existing elements, through the medium of giving divine breath and spirit.
To recap:
1) Chaos
2) Earth rises from Sea
3) Plants cover earth
4) Creation of sun, moon, and stars, to "reckon up the years."
5) Creation of man via the impartation of divine breath
I daresay that there are just as many, if not more, thematic and substantial parallels between Genesis 1 and the
Voluspa as there are between Genesis 1 and the
Enuma Elish.
There is nothing unique, in my opinion, about the connection between Genesis and the
Enuma Elish that constitutes dependence or polemic. At the end of the day one would have to base
his entire argument, unless I am mistaken, on nothing more than geological proximity. Similar to the case of evolution, all "transitional forms" of mangled creation documents or tablets are missing, and one is left, really, with an
ipse dixit, at least as I see it.
I typed out the
Voluspa by hand, so from this point on, I'll use internet sources for some of the Native American legends:
Kiowa Apache: "In the beginning nothing existed--no earth, no sky, no sun, no moon, only darkness was everywhere." The Creator next went on to create Light, followed by the Earth. Google the Cherokee, Creek, Inuit, and other legends, and you'll see a same theme, namely, chaos and/or water being the primal element, followed by the creation of all other things.
Some of the Hindu myths, the Japanese myths, and the Egyptian myths, as well as some African myths, also start out with either chaos, water, or, at times, "chaos/water."
Some cultures reflect and retain the original sequence more than others. In some, animals already exist, in others, the earth is created prior to the seas, but in many cases the sequence is stunning.
Even Ovid, despite being entangled by the Five Element view, seems to reflect the very same order:
The Creation of the World
Of bodies chang'd to various forms, I sing:
Ye Gods, from whom these miracles did spring,
Inspire my numbers with coelestial heat;
'Till I my long laborious work compleat:
And add perpetual tenour to my rhimes,
Deduc'd from Nature's birth, to Caesar's times.
Before the seas, and this terrestrial ball,
And Heav'n's high canopy, that covers all,
One was the face of Nature; if a face:
Rather a rude and indigested mass:
A lifeless lump, unfashion'd, and unfram'd,
Of jarring seeds; and justly Chaos nam'd.
No sun was lighted up, the world to view;
No moon did yet her blunted horns renew:
Nor yet was Earth suspended in the sky,
Nor pois'd, did on her own foundations lye:
Nor seas about the shores their arms had thrown;
But earth, and air, and water, were in one.
Thus air was void of light, and earth unstable,
And water's dark abyss unnavigable.
No certain form on any was imprest;
All were confus'd, and each disturb'd the rest.
For hot and cold were in one body fixt;
And soft with hard, and light with heavy mixt.
But God, or Nature, while they thus contend,
To these intestine discords put an end:
Then earth from air, and seas from earth were driv'n,
And grosser air sunk from aetherial Heav'n.
Thus disembroil'd, they take their proper place;
The next of kin, contiguously embrace;
And foes are sunder'd, by a larger space.
The force of fire ascended first on high,
And took its dwelling in the vaulted sky:
Then air succeeds, in lightness next to fire;
Whose atoms from unactive earth retire.
Earth sinks beneath, and draws a num'rous throng
Of pondrous, thick, unwieldy seeds along.
About her coasts, unruly waters roar;
And rising, on a ridge, insult the shore.
Thus when the God, whatever God was he,
Had form'd the whole, and made the parts agree,
That no unequal portions might be found,
He moulded Earth into a spacious round:
Then with a breath, he gave the winds to blow;
And bad the congregated waters flow.
He adds the running springs, and standing lakes;
And bounding banks for winding rivers makes.
Some part, in Earth are swallow'd up, the most
In ample oceans, disembogu'd, are lost.
He shades the woods, the vallies he restrains
With rocky mountains, and extends the plains.
***
High o'er the clouds, and empty realms of wind,
The God a clearer space for Heav'n design'd;
Where fields of light, and liquid aether flow;
Purg'd from the pondrous dregs of Earth below.
Scarce had the Pow'r distinguish'd these, when streight
The stars, no longer overlaid with weight,
Exert their heads, from underneath the mass;
And upward shoot, and kindle as they pass,
And with diffusive light adorn their heav'nly place.
Then, every void of Nature to supply,
With forms of Gods he fills the vacant sky:
New herds of beasts he sends, the plains to share:
New colonies of birds, to people air:
And to their oozy beds, the finny fish repair.
A creature of a more exalted kind
Was wanting yet, and then was Man design'd:
Conscious of thought, of more capacious breast,
For empire form'd, and fit to rule the rest:
Whether with particles of heav'nly fire
The God of Nature did his soul inspire,
Or Earth, but new divided from the sky,
And, pliant, still retain'd th' aetherial energy:
Which wise Prometheus temper'd into paste,
And, mixt with living streams, the godlike image cast.
Thus, while the mute creation downward bend
Their sight, and to their earthly mother tend,
Man looks aloft; and with erected eyes
Beholds his own hereditary skies.
From such rude principles our form began;
And earth was metamorphos'd into Man.
1) Chaos
2) Distinguishing Between Earth, Sea, and Sky
3) Stars
4) Animals
5) Man
So, my question is, why exactly do almost all ancient cultures start out with a chaos, or "unformed lump"; either that, or "universal waters", followed by a "separation" period wherein the earth, sea, and sky are distinguished, followed by the creation of stars, animals, and man.
Granted, I'm not acting as if these myths have not been garbled. I'm not ignoring Spider Woman, inconsistencies, preexisting animals, etc. But at least
for me, it's just as plausible to think that, if all mankind descended from Noah and his sons, that they retained the account of creation (in their oral, and later written, cultures) and preserved the basic "gist", while particular elements became garbled over time.
I realize this post is long. My only point is, when a scholar engages in "freeplay", he can create links and tomes and peer-reviewed papers about anything he wants. A scholar could have a
field day with the
Voluspa. But of course, he can't. Geographical proximity, however, allows the scholar to do so when it comes to the ANE.
I noticed you said "there might be some Egyptian elements". I don't know if you are referring to Currid's work or not, but to be honest, I found even his treatment of the Egyptian myths with their "creation by word" and how it relates to Genesis unsettling.
I thought about posting that months ago, but never did. Namely, I realize it's too easy on the PB for anonymous laymen to "lay into" accredited scholars and pastors. Nevertheless, his treatment very much made me uncomfortable.
At the end of the day, I believe that Noah and his sons had an oral and/or written creation account, and that this was passed on to their posterity, all of whom garbled it in some manner or another. But it was interesting, at least to me, that they usually follow a similar sequence, and almost always begin with chaos/water.
I guess that explanation is too simplistic for some.
Blessings Richard,
Joshua
