So how different he is from "us"?
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Poimen
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Well I think this response to his post says it all:
"I'm Not Like You Either: An Apologia to Michael Spencer
When I first started coming here a few months ago, I was impressed by your courage. I was impressed that you spoke the truth about things that concerned me. My study of the Bible over the years has opened my eyes to the vacuousness and inanity within the contemporary evangelical church. Your articles were a breath of fresh air - someone with the guts to say what needed to be said.
But now I feel weird. I feel as though the Michael Spencer I enjoyed reading is not the person I imagined he was. Granted, you are not perfect but neither is anyone here. You are still struggling with your faith - I wouldn't have it any other way.
I suppose my error was that I felt that my adherence to Calvinism was as a result of my study of the Bible. Now you are telling me that my belief system is just another part of the problem. That the poor folk living in Kentucky who don't know the Gospel are somehow worse off because of my adherence to Calvinism. I didn't realise it before, but now I am a legalist - responsible for your Father's depression and rejection from the church. I am apparently part of a wider conspiracy to enforce my views on others and prevent Christians from independent thought (such as reading NT Wright).
Worse... I didn't realise my error of loving theology. I always thought that theology was the study of God that arose from God's inspired word and was always eminently practical and always important. Now I have been told that this is not the case at all. Now I have been told that the study of God is not practical and is certainly not important.
I always felt as though Calvinism and its resurgence would be good for the church. Given the total lack of gospel preaching by Joel Osteen and the heretical rantings of Word-faith preachers, preaching the gospel and believing it to be the power of God for the Salvation of all who believe seemed to be the right thing to do. Preach the word, in season and out of season. Apparently, though, that is incorrect. Why? Because Calvinism just seems to be another meaningless word and division in the church.
So, I'll stop preaching the word. I'll stop preaching the Gospel. I am, unlike you, completely happy and well adjusted. My parents were perfect and did not suffer at all during their lives. The people of Newcastle, Australia - most of whom are poorly educated unbelievers and have heard no Christian message - will just have to wait until Hell.
Moreover, I'll just have to stop visiting those conservative Calvinist think tank websites and stop reading their articles. You know, the ones that lament Biblical ignorance and expose false gospels - well they're all theological and not suited to the good people of Kentucky or Newcastle.
Maybe I'll even change my political colours and stop voting for left-wing parties. Since we Calvinists are all the same politically I suppose everyone else here who are Calvinists (and therefore supporters of left-wing parties) will probably do the same.
Yes - I will change. When someone willingly and lovingly exposes a wrong belief in my life, then God will convict me. I will always change my mind when I am proved wrong."
And this from Michael Spencer:
"I don't think I can explain this, but I believe you can learn more about God in an hour silence than in a year of reading or listening to preaching."
Sorry I guess I'm still a reactionary fundamentalist but this sounds way too mystical for me.
Instead, how about:
Isaiah 40:8 "The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever."
Jeremiah 23:9
"Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?"
Romans 10:17
"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
1 Corinthians 1:17-29
"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence."
1 Peter 1:23,25
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever... But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."
James 1:18
"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures"
Belgic Confession, Article 35
"Now those who are regenerated have in them a twofold life, the one corporal and temporal, which they have from the first birth and is common to all men; the other, spiritual and heavenly, which is given them in their second birth, which is effected by the Word of the gospel..."
Heidelberg Catechism
Q65: Since, then, we are made partakers of Christ and all his benefits by faith only, where does this faith come from?
A65: The Holy Ghost works faith in our hearts by the preaching of the Holy Gospel, and confirms it by the use of the holy sacraments.
Q83: What is the Office of the Keys?
A83: The preaching of the Holy Gospel and Christian discipline; by these two the kingdom of heaven is opened to believers and shut against unbelievers.
Canons of Dordrecht, I.3
"And that men may be brought to believe, God mercifully sends the messengers of these most joyful tidings to whom He will and at what time He pleases; by whose ministry men are called to repentance and faith in Christ crucified."
Canons of Dordrecht, V.14
"And as it has pleased God, by the preaching of the gospel, to begin this work of grace in us, so He preserves, continues, and perfects it by the hearing and reading of His Word, by meditation thereon, and by the exhortations, threatenings, and promises thereof, and by the use of the sacraments."
Is it a coincidence that in every revival in the church or history was precipitated by the preaching of the word? (eg. Pentecost; Reformation etc.) And where are all the Protestants who trust in the foolishness of the gospel? In Paul's time there were just as many ways to present a message as there were today (except without the technology). Yet the New Testament scriptures, especially the Book of Acts sees the preaching of the word as being central to the conversion and salvation of the elect., not through an introspective meditation! Yes God can use any method He wants but He wants His church to obey Him because He ordinarily uses the preaching of the word to bring His elect into the church (as per the scripture references above).
[edited for language]
[Edited on 4-15-05 by pastorway]
"I'm Not Like You Either: An Apologia to Michael Spencer
When I first started coming here a few months ago, I was impressed by your courage. I was impressed that you spoke the truth about things that concerned me. My study of the Bible over the years has opened my eyes to the vacuousness and inanity within the contemporary evangelical church. Your articles were a breath of fresh air - someone with the guts to say what needed to be said.
But now I feel weird. I feel as though the Michael Spencer I enjoyed reading is not the person I imagined he was. Granted, you are not perfect but neither is anyone here. You are still struggling with your faith - I wouldn't have it any other way.
I suppose my error was that I felt that my adherence to Calvinism was as a result of my study of the Bible. Now you are telling me that my belief system is just another part of the problem. That the poor folk living in Kentucky who don't know the Gospel are somehow worse off because of my adherence to Calvinism. I didn't realise it before, but now I am a legalist - responsible for your Father's depression and rejection from the church. I am apparently part of a wider conspiracy to enforce my views on others and prevent Christians from independent thought (such as reading NT Wright).
Worse... I didn't realise my error of loving theology. I always thought that theology was the study of God that arose from God's inspired word and was always eminently practical and always important. Now I have been told that this is not the case at all. Now I have been told that the study of God is not practical and is certainly not important.
I always felt as though Calvinism and its resurgence would be good for the church. Given the total lack of gospel preaching by Joel Osteen and the heretical rantings of Word-faith preachers, preaching the gospel and believing it to be the power of God for the Salvation of all who believe seemed to be the right thing to do. Preach the word, in season and out of season. Apparently, though, that is incorrect. Why? Because Calvinism just seems to be another meaningless word and division in the church.
So, I'll stop preaching the word. I'll stop preaching the Gospel. I am, unlike you, completely happy and well adjusted. My parents were perfect and did not suffer at all during their lives. The people of Newcastle, Australia - most of whom are poorly educated unbelievers and have heard no Christian message - will just have to wait until Hell.
Moreover, I'll just have to stop visiting those conservative Calvinist think tank websites and stop reading their articles. You know, the ones that lament Biblical ignorance and expose false gospels - well they're all theological and not suited to the good people of Kentucky or Newcastle.
Maybe I'll even change my political colours and stop voting for left-wing parties. Since we Calvinists are all the same politically I suppose everyone else here who are Calvinists (and therefore supporters of left-wing parties) will probably do the same.
Yes - I will change. When someone willingly and lovingly exposes a wrong belief in my life, then God will convict me. I will always change my mind when I am proved wrong."
And this from Michael Spencer:
"I don't think I can explain this, but I believe you can learn more about God in an hour silence than in a year of reading or listening to preaching."
Sorry I guess I'm still a reactionary fundamentalist but this sounds way too mystical for me.
Instead, how about:
Isaiah 40:8 "The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever."
Jeremiah 23:9
"Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?"
Romans 10:17
"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
1 Corinthians 1:17-29
"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence."
1 Peter 1:23,25
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever... But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."
James 1:18
"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures"
Belgic Confession, Article 35
"Now those who are regenerated have in them a twofold life, the one corporal and temporal, which they have from the first birth and is common to all men; the other, spiritual and heavenly, which is given them in their second birth, which is effected by the Word of the gospel..."
Heidelberg Catechism
Q65: Since, then, we are made partakers of Christ and all his benefits by faith only, where does this faith come from?
A65: The Holy Ghost works faith in our hearts by the preaching of the Holy Gospel, and confirms it by the use of the holy sacraments.
Q83: What is the Office of the Keys?
A83: The preaching of the Holy Gospel and Christian discipline; by these two the kingdom of heaven is opened to believers and shut against unbelievers.
Canons of Dordrecht, I.3
"And that men may be brought to believe, God mercifully sends the messengers of these most joyful tidings to whom He will and at what time He pleases; by whose ministry men are called to repentance and faith in Christ crucified."
Canons of Dordrecht, V.14
"And as it has pleased God, by the preaching of the gospel, to begin this work of grace in us, so He preserves, continues, and perfects it by the hearing and reading of His Word, by meditation thereon, and by the exhortations, threatenings, and promises thereof, and by the use of the sacraments."
Is it a coincidence that in every revival in the church or history was precipitated by the preaching of the word? (eg. Pentecost; Reformation etc.) And where are all the Protestants who trust in the foolishness of the gospel? In Paul's time there were just as many ways to present a message as there were today (except without the technology). Yet the New Testament scriptures, especially the Book of Acts sees the preaching of the word as being central to the conversion and salvation of the elect., not through an introspective meditation! Yes God can use any method He wants but He wants His church to obey Him because He ordinarily uses the preaching of the word to bring His elect into the church (as per the scripture references above).
[edited for language]
[Edited on 4-15-05 by pastorway]
lwadkins
Puritan Board Junior
I would read more but I really need an hour of silence to learn more. 
Sounds Gnostic to me.
We don't need to read (the Scriptures) and learn what God has revealed about himself, instead I'll just sit in silence and wait for the Holy Spirit bring me a SPECIAL word of knowledge and then I will REALLY know god. I mean after all Christianity is a PERSONAL relationship with God. So he can address me personally and teach me what I need to know. I don't need to be discipled, God can do that for me. I don't need to sit under the teaching of those whom God blessed with wonderful intellects far beyond my meager capability because God will give me all the knowledge I need through the Holy Spirit. So I will just sit in silence and wait for knowledge 
Sounds Gnostic to me.
We don't need to read (the Scriptures) and learn what God has revealed about himself, instead I'll just sit in silence and wait for the Holy Spirit bring me a SPECIAL word of knowledge and then I will REALLY know god. I mean after all Christianity is a PERSONAL relationship with God. So he can address me personally and teach me what I need to know. I don't need to be discipled, God can do that for me. I don't need to sit under the teaching of those whom God blessed with wonderful intellects far beyond my meager capability because God will give me all the knowledge I need through the Holy Spirit. So I will just sit in silence and wait for knowledge While I heartily agree with Reverend Kok...I would add and/or tweak...
That preaching the Word does NOT bring about the same result as preaching the Gospel.
In the Word - (as we know) there are two different styles of languages proclaimed. The Law incites sin - so as to drive the hearer to the Gospel; the Gospel saves.
I think it important to note that movements like the Anabaptists; Pentecostalism, Etc., were lead-footed on the Law language in Scripture. This can result in illegitimate spiritual births; despair/tyranny for the elect.
So much can be said...but noticing the rise of mysticism in our day is only the tip of the iceberg....
Robin
That preaching the Word does NOT bring about the same result as preaching the Gospel.
In the Word - (as we know) there are two different styles of languages proclaimed. The Law incites sin - so as to drive the hearer to the Gospel; the Gospel saves.
I think it important to note that movements like the Anabaptists; Pentecostalism, Etc., were lead-footed on the Law language in Scripture. This can result in illegitimate spiritual births; despair/tyranny for the elect.
So much can be said...but noticing the rise of mysticism in our day is only the tip of the iceberg....
Robin
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Assessor
I didnt understand this:
Poimen
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Originally posted by Robin
While I heartily agree with Reverend Kok...I would add and/or tweak...
That preaching the Word does NOT bring about the same result as preaching the Gospel.
In the Word - (as we know) there are two different styles of languages proclaimed. The Law incites sin - so as to drive the hearer to the Gospel; the Gospel saves.
I think it important to note that movements like the Anabaptists; Pentecostalism, Etc., were lead-footed on the Law language in Scripture. This can result in illegitimate spiritual births; despair/tyranny for the elect.
So much can be said...but noticing the rise of mysticism in our day is only the tip of the iceberg....
Robin
No disagreement from me on this point.
I must admit that my post was somewhat of a diatribe since I was rather incensed by the nonsense that Mr. Spencer was espousing. Perhaps this led to a lack of clarity about what I meant.
[Edited on 4-15-2005 by poimen]
He is correct. I am not like him. I have defined theology. I don't need Roman Catholicism to teach me Christ. And I am very loving at the same time because Christ is loving. I have close friends who are Catholic and Arminian. I am not a condemning person. I have a lot of non-Christian friends. I do share the gospel. But my theology is defined by Jesus teaching which is very Calvinistic, and a High view of Scripture which Jesus also had. I am like him in the fact that I have seen Christians be snobs against those who differ from themselves. All of life is like that. I believe it also exists in his life. We all struggle with it. It is called Pride.
For Christ's Crown and Covenant, Randy
For Christ's Crown and Covenant, Randy
Oh Yea, P. S.
It was necessary for me to hear words from God's Word. If God was Silent, I would be lost.
It was necessary for me to hear words from God's Word. If God was Silent, I would be lost.
Originally posted by Robin
While I heartily agree with Reverend Kok...I would add and/or tweak...
That preaching the Word does NOT bring about the same result as preaching the Gospel.
In the Word - (as we know) there are two different styles of languages proclaimed. The Law incites sin - so as to drive the hearer to the Gospel; the Gospel saves.
I think it important to note that movements like the Anabaptists; Pentecostalism, Etc., were lead-footed on the Law language in Scripture. This can result in illegitimate spiritual births; despair/tyranny for the elect.
So much can be said...but noticing the rise of mysticism in our day is only the tip of the iceberg....
Robin
um....."The LAW of the Lord is perfect converting the soul." Psalm 19:7
The Word of God is the gospel. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." Romans 10:17
Preach the Word - it will never return void but always accomplidh the task for which it is sent forth, whether to harden or break, crush or heal. Is 55:11
Phillip
Originally posted by pastorway
Originally posted by Robin
While I heartily agree with Reverend Kok...I would add and/or tweak...
That preaching the Word does NOT bring about the same result as preaching the Gospel.
In the Word - (as we know) there are two different styles of languages proclaimed. The Law incites sin - so as to drive the hearer to the Gospel; the Gospel saves.
I think it important to note that movements like the Anabaptists; Pentecostalism, Etc., were lead-footed on the Law language in Scripture. This can result in illegitimate spiritual births; despair/tyranny for the elect.
So much can be said...but noticing the rise of mysticism in our day is only the tip of the iceberg....
Robin
um....."The LAW of the Lord is perfect converting the soul." Psalm 19:7
The Word of God is the gospel. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." Romans 10:17
Preach the Word - it will never return void but always accomplidh the task for which it is sent forth, whether to harden or break, crush or heal. Is 55:11
Phillip
Since you're the Baptist, Phillip, what are you suggesting by the prooftexts? I would read them a bit differently, perhaps.
(I wouldn't want to presume.)
R.
[Edited on 4-16-2005 by Robin]
Actually Robin, what you are proposing is far more Lutheran than Reformed.
Sorry.
(And yes, I am aware that it is the position of Rev. Riddlebarger)
Sorry.
(And yes, I am aware that it is the position of Rev. Riddlebarger)
What do you mean, more Lutheran? I always thought this position was nearer to Paul.
Theodore Beza says it best, I think:
http://www.modernreformation.org/tbtwoparts.htm
Thoughts?
R.
[Edited on 4-19-2005 by Robin]
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