Style in Ministry
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SolaScriptura
Puritanboard Brimstone
For the most part I have no problems with what he said in this particular segment.
Some of what he said, to some extent, I'd challenge. For example, he talked about the punk-rocker who comes to Jesus... he wants that guy to remain in his punk-rocker culture and be a "missionary" to it. I'd say, maybe... but be careful, because much of what constitutes the "subcultures" of Seattle (be they punk-rockers or what have you) is rebellion plain and simple. And you don't baptize rebellion and act as if a rebellious culture is really not rebellious and that it is ok to remain in that rebellious culture.
Some of what he said, to some extent, I'd challenge. For example, he talked about the punk-rocker who comes to Jesus... he wants that guy to remain in his punk-rocker culture and be a "missionary" to it. I'd say, maybe... but be careful, because much of what constitutes the "subcultures" of Seattle (be they punk-rockers or what have you) is rebellion plain and simple. And you don't baptize rebellion and act as if a rebellious culture is really not rebellious and that it is ok to remain in that rebellious culture.
Rangerus
Puritan Board Junior
I am forming an early opinion that the sole purpose of this type of ministry is just as he described it. Tribal. It is an entry level Christianity with simple "vulgate" terminology that has an appeal to the newer generational Christians.
I don't think there is much need for a punk rock pulpit as one begins to mature in their walk, but for beginners who have an uninformed view of the Bible, Christ and the Way this perhaps is a means to communicate and get them listening and reading.
But what do I know, I've never been to Seattle. Or maybe I've seen one too many episodes of Stargate, who knows.
I don't think there is much need for a punk rock pulpit as one begins to mature in their walk, but for beginners who have an uninformed view of the Bible, Christ and the Way this perhaps is a means to communicate and get them listening and reading.
But what do I know, I've never been to Seattle. Or maybe I've seen one too many episodes of Stargate, who knows.
After just finishing "Confessions of a Reformission Rev." by Mark Driscoll I can heartily say that Mark's style of ministry is just what the Doctor ordered for Seattle. I don't agree with everything that Mark does or embraces but once again I think there is value there that can be utlized by Reformed Pastors.
PresbyDane
Puritanboard Doctor
well thanks for sharing, I still do not know what to think about that guy
WaywardNowHome
Puritan Board Freshman
The problem with style and preference is that people aren't universally attracted to the same styles and preferences. So if you're shooting for a certain style at the expense of every other style that few may want, you're toast.
BTW, Punk Rock Culture does not = Chinese Culture, so his analogy doesn't fit.
Isn't that his point? People are not universally attracted to the same styles. That's exactly what he's saying. While we may be fine with suits and ties and formalities that are born from our culture (we may even prefer that), the "Seattlites" are not attracted to it. The reverse is true as well: they are fine with a certain style that we are not attracted to. Every church is going to be shooting for a certain style, which will always be at the expense of every other style, whether that style be suit-and-ties or village attire or t-shirts and jeans.
I wonder how our suits-and-tie style (which seems to be the most common in America) came to be the standard by which to judge other styles? It's definitely not a Biblical standard, as far as I can tell. I fully agree with Mark here: let the visitors of the church reject them based on the message of the Gospel, not the style of their ministry.
I tend to think our Reformed churches should be more counter-cultural...and I think his church is. He has people picketing and wanting to go on stage to fight him.
Sometimes, it seems, that churches that embrace the tribalism of the world tend to perpetuate a stereo-type about the rest of Christianity. If our unity is from the cultus of the world, what unity is there in Christ? I know that's not being said explicitly, but the reality is that Christians are in the family of God. I don't want to communicate that the gospel is merely translateable to a different cultus, rather, that the gospel translates us from darkness to light.
The cult of trendiness should strike the believer as being silly. I can get along just fine with people that look "funny"...the trouble is getting them to see I'm not the jerk they assume I am based on their prejudice to my appearance.
Either way you slice it: appealing to middle class or the punk/hip-hop/artsy-fartsy...the problem still remains that the Church embraces the world and walks past the unlovely. I have more respect for a charasmatic pastor who ministers to the drug addicted and hookers of the east side of Toledo than I do those that focus on niche marketing.
Again, I say kudos to this man's ministry...but let's make sure we're not leaving one error for another. It really is more fun to be hip than it is to promote fatherhood and a full quiver.
Sometimes, it seems, that churches that embrace the tribalism of the world tend to perpetuate a stereo-type about the rest of Christianity. If our unity is from the cultus of the world, what unity is there in Christ? I know that's not being said explicitly, but the reality is that Christians are in the family of God. I don't want to communicate that the gospel is merely translateable to a different cultus, rather, that the gospel translates us from darkness to light.
The cult of trendiness should strike the believer as being silly. I can get along just fine with people that look "funny"...the trouble is getting them to see I'm not the jerk they assume I am based on their prejudice to my appearance.
Either way you slice it: appealing to middle class or the punk/hip-hop/artsy-fartsy...the problem still remains that the Church embraces the world and walks past the unlovely. I have more respect for a charasmatic pastor who ministers to the drug addicted and hookers of the east side of Toledo than I do those that focus on niche marketing.
Again, I say kudos to this man's ministry...but let's make sure we're not leaving one error for another. It really is more fun to be hip than it is to promote fatherhood and a full quiver.
apaleífo̱
Puritan Board Freshman
probably b/c we are in the 21st Century.And no one wants to be like the puritans, they are crazy people.
Crazy people...with wonderful garb! Ah, for the days when Reverend Mather and Reverend Nathaniel Ward would take the church by storm with their sermons! And to think of the pale, pathetic 21st century in comparison -- how it lacks the fire of our forefathers.
Knoxienne
Puritan Board Graduate
probably b/c we are in the 21st Century.
Crazy people...with wonderful garb! Ah, for the days when Reverend Mather and Reverend Nathaniel Ward would take the church by storm with their sermons! And to think of the pale, pathetic 21st century in comparison -- how it lacks the fire of our forefathers.
Amen. Crazy is good. I've seen a purple bumper sticker around town which says "God bless the freaks". I don't know the guy's reasons for having it (most likely not the same as mine) but I'd really like one.
regener8ed
Puritan Board Freshman
As a punk rock/goth/skater type of guy..
I am glad that there are Bible centered, Christ honoring, and Calvinistic leaning churches out there that I would feel comfortable being and dressing like myself at.
God's word teaches that He calls people out of EVERY tribe, nation, and tongue. As long as the church is teaching the word faithfully who cares what style or culture that the people of that church adhere to?
I'll not criticize the suit and tie wearing dude, and they shouldn't criticize the punk /goth dude for worldly standards of dress (both of which are of this world).
I am pretty sure Jesus doesn’t wear a suit and tie; nor does he wear a spiked belt or bracelet.
Also; Punk rock style is not necessarily a style that is centered in rebellion, any more than a suit and tie; or whatever the current cultural standard of “formal” clothing is.
I would wager that the most evil men in the world wear a suit and tie daily but I would also add that they are not evil because of what they wear, they are evil because of what comes forth from their hearts.
I am glad that there are Bible centered, Christ honoring, and Calvinistic leaning churches out there that I would feel comfortable being and dressing like myself at.
God's word teaches that He calls people out of EVERY tribe, nation, and tongue. As long as the church is teaching the word faithfully who cares what style or culture that the people of that church adhere to?
I'll not criticize the suit and tie wearing dude, and they shouldn't criticize the punk /goth dude for worldly standards of dress (both of which are of this world).
I am pretty sure Jesus doesn’t wear a suit and tie; nor does he wear a spiked belt or bracelet.
Also; Punk rock style is not necessarily a style that is centered in rebellion, any more than a suit and tie; or whatever the current cultural standard of “formal” clothing is.
I would wager that the most evil men in the world wear a suit and tie daily but I would also add that they are not evil because of what they wear, they are evil because of what comes forth from their hearts.
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Rich Koster
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I believe the key statement is staying in the culture as far as you can. As an educated Christian we should know where we draw the line participating in ANY culture. One of the big problem with foreign missions is when someone goes abroad and tries to ram their culture down someone's throat and then after offending them, trying to teach about Jesus.
Didn't Paul say something to the drift of being all things to all peoples addressing culture? I doubt he compromised.
Didn't Paul say something to the drift of being all things to all peoples addressing culture? I doubt he compromised.- Status
