Synergistic Sanctification

[fredtgreco]

Yes. Let me give a few pertinent quotes from John Murray, perhaps the greatest proponent of the doctrines of grace in the 20th century:

[color=blue:4ba9c4cbc9]"Sanctification is a work of God [i:4ba9c4cbc9]in us[/i:4ba9c4cbc9], and calling and regeneration are acts of God which have their immediate effects [i:4ba9c4cbc9]in us[/i:4ba9c4cbc9]." ([i:4ba9c4cbc9]Redemption Accomplished and Applied[/i:4ba9c4cbc9], 141, emphasis in original)

"The Holy Spirit is the controlling and directing agent in every regenerate person." (Id. 142)

"It is necessary to remind ourselves that in the last analysis we do not sanctify ourselves. It is God who sanctifies (1 Thess. 5:23). Specifically it is the Holy Spirit who is the agent of sanctification." (Id. 146)

"While we are constantly dependent upon the supernatural agency of the Holy Spirit, we must also take account of the fact that sanctification is a process that draws within its scope the conscious life of the believer. The sanctified are not passive or quiescent in this process... Neither is the relation strictly one of co-operation as if God did his part and we did ours so that the conjunction or coordination of both produced the required result. God works in us and we also work. But the relation is that [i:4ba9c4cbc9]because[/i:4ba9c4cbc9] God works we work... The more persistently active we are in working, the more persuaded we may be that all the energizing grace and power is of God." (Id. 148-149)[/color:4ba9c4cbc9]

So it is not just that God works and we are passive. We work too - but our work is actually the work of God. In that sense, sanctification is synergistic: it requires two parties. But God is behind both parties.

It is not unlike the child who "helps" his father lift a large box when really the father is the one doing all the lifting.

[Edited on 5-15-2004 by fredtgreco]

 

[pastorway]

Good post Fred and excellent quotes.

Paul,

I agree that we cooperate, but I don't think you and I are using the terms the same way.

When I say we cooperate in our sanctification I mean that as God sanctifies us we do things as a result. Our sanctification is furthered along and as a result we do good works.

You seem to be saying that what we do in cooperating, when we mortify the deeds of the flesh for example, that we are helping God sanctify us. Are you saying that when we cooperate that that furthers our sanctification along?

I would say that this position presents salvation secured/furthered along by works. And this cannot be.

We cooperate because we are being sanctified. Our cooperation does not sanctify us.

Phillip

[Edited on 5-15-04 by pastorway]

 

[fredtgreco]

[quote:1e1662a930][i:1e1662a930]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:1e1662a930]

We need to ask ourselves what would happen if ANYONE in the reformed camp said that same things that Berkof, Shedd, the Hodges, Sproul, Packer, Williamson, Dabney et al, about justification or regeneration. Our community would be in an uproar.

Why, why on earth, HAS NO REFORMED SYSTAMATICIAN, EVER used these words with respect to the other two??? If there were no difference then it shouldn't be a problem to say that man "co-operates" in the other two. Now, do you seriously believe what you say??? If so you need to answer: why has this language NEVER been used if it means the EXACT SAME thing as "monergism" does with respect to the other two? Also, I challenge you to use thise exact SAME language about the other two. So, at church tell your pastor and elders that you now believe that man "co-operates" in his justification and in his regeneration. When they bring down the hammer tell them..."well, all the reformed theologians use this language with respects to sanctification so I can use it now.
[/quote:1e1662a930]

Paul,

I think you are being a tad extreme here. This took me 2 minutes to find:

[quote:1e1662a930]"Regeneration is he renewing of the heart and mind, and the renewed heart and mind must act according to their nature. Regeneration is the act of God and of God alone. But faith is not the act of God; it is not God who believes in Christ for salvation, it is the sinner." It is by God's grace that a person is able to believe but faith is an activity on the part of the person and him alone. In faith [i:1e1662a930]we[/i:1e1662a930] receive and rest upon Christ alone for salvation. It might be said: this is a strange mixture. God alone regenerates. We alone believe. And we believe in Christ alone for salvation. But this is precisely the way it is." (Murray, [i:1e1662a930]Redemption Accomplished and Applied[/i:1e1662a930], 106 ) [/quote:1e1662a930]

and

[quote:1e1662a930]
The elements of faith. We distinguish three elements in true saving faith. (1) An intellectual element. There is a positive recognition of the truth revealed in the Word of God, a spiritual insight which finds response in the heart of the sinner. It is an absolutely certain knowledge, based on the promises of God. While it need not be comprehensive, it should be sufficient to give the believer some idea of the fundamental truths of the gospel. (2) An emotional element (assent). This is not mentioned separately by the Heidelberg Catechism, because it is virtually included in the knowledge of saving faith. It is characteristic of this knowledge that it carries with it a strong conviction of the importance of its object, and this is assent. The truth grips the soul. (3) An element of the will (trust). This is the crowning element of saving faith. It is a personal trust in Christ as Saviour and Lord, which includes a surrender of the soul as guilty and defiled to Christ, and a reliance on Him as the source of pardon and spiritual life. In the last analysis the object of saving faith is Jesus Christ and the promise of salvation in Him. John 3:16, 18, 36; 6:40; Acts 10:43; Rom. 3:22; Gal. 2:16. [b:1e1662a930]This faith is not of human origin, but is a gift of God[/b:1e1662a930], I Cor. 12:8, 9; Gal. 5:22; Eph. 2:8. But [b:1e1662a930]its exercise is a human activity[/b:1e1662a930], to which the children of God are repeatedly exhorted, Rom. 10:9; I Cor. 2:5; Col. 1:23; I Tim. 1:5; 6:11. (Berkhof, [i:1e1662a930]Summary of Christian Doctrine[/i:1e1662a930], ch. 20)[/quote:1e1662a930]

 

[Dan....]

[quote:b7607d9f8d]
Pastor Phillip wrote,

I do not agree that prayer and the sacraments are a means of grace. That makes your works a means of grace and therefore means that you are sanctified by your works. The only means of grace given in the Scriptures whereby we are sanctified is the Word of God applied by the power of the Spirit in the believers life. (John 17:17, etc)
[/quote:b7607d9f8d]

[quote:b7607d9f8d]
Pastor Fred replied:

I should have expected that you would disagree, but that is the Baptist, not the monergist in you.
[/quote:b7607d9f8d]

First, to deny that the ordinances and prayer are means of grace is not necessarily baptistic. I, for one hold that they are indeed means of grace. It is the position of my church, and it no doubt the position of most Reformed Baptist churches. It is certainly the confessional baptist position (See LBC1689 XIV:1).

To the believer, all things are a means of grace (Romans 8:28).




[quote:b7607d9f8d]
Pastor Phillip wrote:
I do not agree that prayer and the sacraments are a means of grace. That makes your works a means of grace and therefore means that you are sanctified by your works. The only means of grace given in the Scriptures whereby we are sanctified is the Word of God applied by the power of the Spirit in the believers life.
[/quote:b7607d9f8d]

Implied: any "works" performed by man cannot be a means of grace.

If this were true, then so much for the preaching of the Word! The preaching of the Word is (in part) the work of men; and if God cannot utilize the works of men as a means of grace, then He cannot utilize the preaching of the Word.

The preaching of the Word, a work performed by men, is a means of grace by which God gives faith to unbelievers (Rom 10:14-15) and it is also a means whereby those who do believe are further sanctified (2 Tim 3:16-4:2).

Parents teach the commandments dilegently to their children, instructing them to obey, admonishing them to fear the Lord, correcting them (these are all work) - this is a means of grace (Deut 31:13).

Prayer (which is the work of men) is also a means of grace. The "effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much (James 5:16)". See also Luke 11:9; Mk 11:24

It is by the work of communicating with our mouths, that which is "good to the use of edifying" that we "minister grace unto the hearers (Eph 4:29)". Here again, a work is a means of grace.

God works through the means which He has appointed. If we neglect those means, then most certainly we will not be sanctified. If however, we attend unto those means, then the Spirit can and does minister grace to us through the means which he has appointed.

[Edited on 5-15-2004 by Dan....]

 

[fredtgreco]

[quote:0c512406f4]no we are not helping God. By co-operate I mean that I really do the fighting. I am not like a robot who only puts away the p0rn because some buttons were pressed. I need to do it. I really do it. I am active. In justification I am passive. God declares me innocent.

I am just interested. Do you believe that we now, as regenerated men, have the ability to sin and the ability not to sin?[/quote:0c512406f4]

Paul,

I believe what I am saying and Berkhof says is this:

1. There is no work of man, no co-operation, no synergism, nothing in the work of regeneration. It is all of God.

2. Justification is a legal declaration in which the sinner is declared not guilty by the imputation of his sins on Christ and declared righteous by the imputation of the righteousness of Christ on him.

3. Sanctification also has a legal aspect to it, in that in justfication the sinner is definitively sanctified.

4. The sole instrument by which a sinner is justified is faith.

5. Faith, along with its sister grace repentance, is an act of man, who is not a robot - but it is the gift of God.

It is interesting that you bring up robots. Murray says sthe following regarding faith: "In salvation God does not deal with us as machines; he deals with us as persons and therefore salvation brings the whole range of our activity within its scope. By grace we are saved through faith." (Redemption, 106)

6. Sanctification is AS MUCH a result of regeneration as justification:

[quote:0c512406f4]
They, who are once effectually called, and [b:0c512406f4]regenerated[/b:0c512406f4], having a new heart, and a new spirit created in them, [b:0c512406f4]are further sanctified[/b:0c512406f4], really and personally, through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection, (1 Cor. 6:11, Acts 20:32, Phil. 3:10, Rom. 6:5-6) by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them, (John 17:17, Eph. 5:26, 2 Thess. 2:13) the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, (Rom. 6:6,14) and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified; (Gal. 5:24, Rom. 8:13) and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces, (Col. 1:11, Eph. 3:16-19) to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. (WCF 13.1)

In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail; (Rom. 7:23) yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the [b:0c512406f4]regenerate part doth overcome[/b:0c512406f4]; (Rom. 6:14, 1 John 5:4, Eph. 4:15-16) and so, the saints grow in grace, (2 Pet. 3:18, 2 Cor. 3:18) perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (2 Cor. 7:1) (WCF 13.3)

WSC 32: What benefits do they that are effectually called partake of in this life?
They that are effectually called do in this life partake of justification, (Rom. 8:30) adoption, (Eph. 1:5) and [b:0c512406f4]sanctification[/b:0c512406f4], and the several benefits which in this life do either accompany or flow from them. (1 Cor. 1:26,30)[/quote:0c512406f4]

The point is that just as the believer is involved in the work of sanctification, so is he involved in the work of sanctification.

YES, you really do need to put away sin. Yes, you are involved and not a robot. But in the same way YOU really need to repent (cf WCF 15.2). And repent not just generally, but specifically (WCF 15.5). You must rest upon Christ, believing the Word, yielding obedience, embracing the promises (WCF 14.2). You are not a robot when you believe. God does not force you. What he does is by His word and Spirit renew you, bring you to life and give you faith that you may exercise it. In the same way, God gives you the graces of sanctification so that you may die more and more to sin and live unto righteousness. Notice that every man you have quoted (and you have said yourself) that man co-operates, but it is God that works in him.

 

[fredtgreco]

[quote:c16f522d08][i:c16f522d08]Originally posted by Dan....[/i:c16f522d08]
First, to deny that the ordinances and prayer are means of grace is not necessarily baptistic. I, for one hold that they are indeed means of grace. It is the position of my church, and it no doubt the position of most Reformed Baptist churches. It is certainly the confessional baptist position (See LBC1689 XIV:1).[/quote:c16f522d08]

Dan, good point. SEE, Phillip, SEE!!!

 

[pastorway]

Chasing a Rabbit

A quick note for Dan....

It is not the [i:467c89d5b3]preaching[/i:467c89d5b3] of the Word that is a means of grace. It is the [i:467c89d5b3]Word[/i:467c89d5b3] preached. There is a difference.

It is the Word, not our work in handling it. That is why even a false teacher when he quotes the Word of God may see people genuinely saved under his "ministry." It was not his preaching, but the Word, that is the means of grace.

Works cannot be a means of grace, for then it is works, and not grace.

[b:467c89d5b3]Romans 4[/b:467c89d5b3]
4Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness....

Our works are not a means of grace. That is the place of the Word of God. As the Word is preached, prayed, present in the observance of the ordinances, then there is a means of grace.


And as for sanctification - the First London Confession identifies sanctification as all of grace:

[quote:467c89d5b3]All believers are a holy and sanctified people, and that sanctification is a spiritual grace of the new covenant, and an effect of the love of God manifested in the soul, whereby the believer presseth after a heavenly and evangelical obedience to all the commands, which Christ as head and king in His new covenant hath prescribed to them.

1 Cor. 12; 1 Pet. 2:9; Eph. 1:4; 1 John 4:16; Matt. 28:20. [/quote:467c89d5b3]

and the Second London Confession elaborates:

[quote:467c89d5b3]Those who are united to Christ, effectually called, and regenerated, having had a new heart and a new spirit created in them through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection, are then further sanctified in a very real and personal way. Because of the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection, and by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them, the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed. The different lusts of the body of sin are increasingly weakened and mortified, and Christ's people are increasingly quickened and strengthened in all saving graces, to practise all true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.

This sanctification extends throughout the whole person, yet it remains imperfect in this life. Some remnants of corruption live on in every part, and from this arises a continuous war between irreconcilable parties - the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.

In this war, although the remaining corruption for a time may greatly prevail, yet through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part overcomes. And so the saints grow in grace perfecting holiness in the fear of God; pressing after a heavenly life in evangelical obedience to all the commands which Christ as Head and King, in His Word, has prescribed to them. [/quote:467c89d5b3]

We are sanctified and as a result do good works and mortify the deeds of the flesh. Our works and obedience do not add to our salvation or further us along in sanctification. They evidence the truth that sanctification is occurring.

Phillip

 

[kceaster]

Paul...

One last thought...

I was thinking back to my science and the definition of work. For work to happen, a transfer of energy must take place from one object to the next.

If synergy is working together, could it also be said to have two distinct energies working in concert for the required result?

If so, I still object to synergistic sanctification. God transfers His energy to me and thus I am energized to do the work. I bring no energy to the table, hence it is not truly synergy.

What are your thoughts?

In Christ,

KC

 

[kceaster]

Paul....

Okay, we can go off on that tangent if we wanted to, but I don't think that is beneficial. God does uphold all things by the word of His power.

But as far as energy and work go, is it our own work on our own energy? I think you've already suggested that it is God. If so, synergy does not work because it entails two independent energies working in cooperation whose combined effects are greater than the value of the individuals. Now, nothing plus God equals everything. But, are we saying that our something plus God is greater in the result because of what we have added? What can we add that makes the sum greater?

That is why synergy does not work for a man and shovel. The shovel adds nothing. It is only a tool. The man's energy is transferred through the shovel to produce work. However, they do not have a synergistic relationship.

The example from the dictionary is the medical use where two drugs combine for a greater effect. They each have something, a value, within themselves, that when added to the other creates an enhanced effect.

That is why I maintain the analogy of God doing the work and us being the vessel through whom that work is done. This is very biblical because God works in and through us to do His will. When we sin, it is not God working in us, it is us doing it. When we do not sin but obey, it is God working in us for good. Everything we do that is good or obedient or towards our sanctification is done by Him through us. If not, we would have reason to boast.

These are all reasons why the term synergy does not fit. Come up with a different word that clearly shows our relationship to God. You won't find it in Websters, but it is a word coined specifically for theology. It is monergism.

In Christ,

KC

[Edited on 5-17-2004 by kceaster]

 

[kceaster]

Paul...

Everyone can be wrong, especially me. I think you have a good portion of people who seem to agree with the use of a "synergistic" term, yet it still may be inconsistent to hold.

I do not understand how it exactly squares with the Standards. I do not understand how we can add anything to our sanctification. We do not sanctify ourselves, rather we are sanctified.

1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

If you want to say that you have a dog in this race, there is nothing I can say to compel you otherwise. But as for me, God does the work by His grace, but why He does it in me is no merit of mine and will always be a mystery.

In Christ,

KC

 

[Ianterrell]

Paul,

It does seem people have more problem with the name than the doctrine in this case. I think Fred made good points about faith being an action on our part, because God is enabling and we are doing. It isn't two parties meeting at the middle its compatablistic. God ordaining, and empowering man's action.

 

[kceaster]

[quote:72d8c52e8e][i:72d8c52e8e]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:72d8c52e8e]
[quote:72d8c52e8e][i:72d8c52e8e]Originally posted by kceaster[/i:72d8c52e8e]
Everyone can be wrong, especially me. I think you have a good portion of people who seem to agree with the use of a "synergistic" term, yet it still may be inconsistent to hold.

I do not understand how it exactly squares with the Standards. I do not understand how we can add anything to our sanctification. We do not sanctify ourselves, rather we are sanctified.

1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

If you want to say that you have a dog in this race, there is nothing I can say to compel you otherwise. But as for me, God does the work by His grace, but why He does it in me is no merit of mine and will always be a mystery.

In Christ,

KC [/quote:72d8c52e8e]

well that was just a huge misrepresentation of my position.[/quote:72d8c52e8e]

I did not mean to represent anything by my statement other than that I am confused about your use of terminology. I am confused about anyone speaking about cooperation IF they are actually saying that we bring anything to the table independent of God.

If it is not independent of God but dependent upon Him, then I am not sure why we can be said to be working with Him. We work because of Him. We work because He gives us something to do and the enablement to do it. If He is working in and through us, then how is it our work? Can you tell me?

[quote:72d8c52e8e]again, we are not autonmous or independant. It is of no merit in me...so, quote where I said it was. I have repeatedly clarified and specified my terms. I have yet to see how you avoid a "let go and let God" framework.[/quote:72d8c52e8e]

Because I do not forget that He has called us to obedience, yet I still disobey. The obedience that I do, can only come from Him and through Christ. The disobedience I do can only come from myself.

So why am I not like a tool? I can do no good within myself. I am not autonomous or independent like you said, so how does the work get done? It is because of me, or because of God. If God, then how am I different than a tool?

[quote:72d8c52e8e]Also, are you saying that, Shedd, The Hodges, Berkof, Williamson, Packer, Sproul, Dabney, Gruedum, et al are all in error. Maybe, but I want to see a quote where man DOES NOT co-operate. If you say that man does than your shovel analogy is wrong...because inanmimate objects don't "co-operate."[/quote:72d8c52e8e]

[b:72d8c52e8e]Does God have to change my will before I cooperate? Yes. Does He have to provide me the strength before I cooperate? Yes. Does He have to give me the work to do? Yes. If the work is good, who has accomplished it? Christ. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. The implied converse of that is true. I can do nothing unless Christ strengthens me.

So how is it synergistic?[/b:72d8c52e8e]

1) If I am not autonomous or independent, then God must work in me.

2) If God is at work in me, He has changed my will to do so because my mind and heart are set against Him.

3) If I can do nothing unless through Christ, then I add nothing to the equation except the vessel through whom the work is done.

I think you believe so strongly about this that you cannot see that there is a balance. Antinomianism and legalism comes from unregenerate men trying to force God to do something because of their misunderstanding or trying to impress God to obtain His favor. Yet, both of these come from the unregenerate mind.

Now, in our debate over synergism, there is no room for either of these two, because if God is at work, then regeneration is a given. Therefore, there is no danger of saying work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. This cannot be abused in the child of God, or if it is, it is only for a time. Both are true. We work, but it is God who works. Same with James.

The bottom line is that the faith placed within us is the operator. That faith has God all over it and none of us. We didn't put it there, it didn't grow there by itself, nor can we increase its supply by our own will, but only because of God from Whom comes every good and perfect gift.

If that faith resides in us, we do what we ought. Not perfectly by a long stretch, but any good thing that comes from our lives, to include our progressive sanctification, comes from that faith that does not originate with us.

If you want a different analogy, we are in a boat with no rudder or anything to propel us. Are we cooperating just by being in the boat? Since we didn't place ourselves in it, I would say no. However, the boat goes as God does. It is steered by Him and propeled by Him. Such is our progressive sanctification. This does not leave us blameless or unaccountable, because we can grieve the Holy Spirit. However, when we do not grieve the Holy Spirit, it is not us, but Christ working in us.

Is that better or worse? Please answer my objections in bold above.

In Christ,

KC

 

[fredtgreco]

Has anyone ever "worked" with their child around the house or in the yard? You know, where the job is actually made harder and longer because you have to do the work for both of you - but the child is "involved" ?

For example: my 3 year old helps me to make coffee. I get the stuff out. I put the scoop in his hand, I do the scooping by holding his hand, I prevent it from spilling, I keep his hand on the scoop - but he is exstatic that he has "helped."

That is (I believe) I picture of our actions in sanctification.

 

[kceaster]

Fred...

[quote:c6c02ef92a][i:c6c02ef92a]Originally posted by fredtgreco[/i:c6c02ef92a]
Has anyone ever "worked" with their child around the house or in the yard? You know, where the job is actually made harder and longer because you have to do the work for both of you - but the child is "involved" ?

For example: my 3 year old helps me to make coffee. I get the stuff out. I put the scoop in his hand, I do the scooping by holding his hand, I prevent it from spilling, I keep his hand on the scoop - but he is exstatic that he has "helped."

That is (I believe) I picture of our actions in sanctification. [/quote:c6c02ef92a]

I can wholeheartedly agree with that.

In Christ,

KC

 

[fredtgreco]

I agree that Paul did not imply a "meeting in the middle".

Paul do you agree with my illustration above?

 

[kceaster]

Paul....

I sincerely apologize if I have charged you in any way. It was not my intention. What I did say, and by the way, I did read your posts, was that I disagree with the use of the term of synergism.

Again, I will bow out. If you truly believe that I am accusing you of anything other than a terminology disorder, then I think it is clear I cannot get through to you.

I'll state my case one last time. Any use of synergism in theological talk is confusing. It was and still is a heresy when placed in the context of salvation. Since sanctification is a part of salvation, then I think we should lose the term.

I am perfectly fine with most of your other statements. I disagree only slightly about your example of turning off the TV when objectionable material comes on because it is not me who turns off the TV, but Christ in me. Whenever I am compelled to obey, it is Christ. Whenever I am compelled not to sin in any way shape or form, it is Christ. Whenever I am compelled to sin, it comes from my own desires and when conceived gives birth to sin.

I can't make it any clearer. I know this is the position of the Westminister Standards and aside from terminology, I have no beef with you.

I reiterate my apology and sincerely ask for your forgiveness.

In Christ,

KC

 

[twogunfighter]

When I sin I'm responsible. When I do right God's responsible. Sanctification is doing right. I can't understand it as anything other than monergistic.

 

[Ianterrell]

Paul I wasn't suggesting that you were implying a meeting in the middle either. I'm just not sure that a compatablistic view of sanctification can abide the title synergistic. I have no problem with what you are actually describing.

 

[Ianterrell]

1 Peter 4:11

Whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God; whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

I think this verse shows pretty clearly God supplying the strength and our efforts making use of that strength. Paul mentions in Philippians: " for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure(2:13)" Our good motives and strength come from God which we are obligated to as you say, Paul (and I do think you are justified in doing so along with the Reformers), co-operate with.

 

[Ranger]

Paul,
I'm trying to follow what you are saying, but remain a little confused. Is it synergistic in that even though God is working, our experience is as though we are doing the work? Kinda the Phil. 2:12-13 thing?

 

[pastorway]

[b:9a9b03d4f2]Galatians 2[/b:9a9b03d4f2]
20I have been crucified with Christ; [b:9a9b03d4f2]it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me[/b:9a9b03d4f2]; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Christ in me. That is sanctification.

I will say it one last time since it seems that this discussion is running the same circles around and around.....

When you mortify the deeds of the flesh you do the work that God has given you the grace to do and the works that He prepared beforehand for you to do. So the works you do add nothing to your salvation or your sanctification. The works you do do not further you in the process of sanctification.

The works you do are done because Christ is in you living through you. The works RESULT from the fact that He has furthered you in the process of being saved (sanctified).

Yes as we are being saved/sanctified we are able now to not sin. But [i:9a9b03d4f2]not sinning[/i:9a9b03d4f2] does not sanctify us. My choice to not sin when tempted does not further my salvation - it evidences the fact that I am already being saved! Not sinning results from our being sanctified. As God alone sanctifies the believer, the believer then does good works and is more and more like Christ.

To say that anything I do adds to the work of salvation, or furthers it in my life, is to deny that we needed the imputed rightouesness of Christ and flies in the face of the doctrine of salvation by grace alone. Imputed righteousness is crucial to the whole doctrine of salvation - not just to justification.

If my works are required as part of salvation then it is not by grace, but by my works so I can now boast. If, on the other hand, my works result from my being saved by grace, then God gets all the credit.

Galatians 2:20 answers every question you have asked Paul. "It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me."

Phillip

 

[pastorway]

Are Good Works a Means of Our Sanctification

Here is a sample of what you have said in our various discussions on sanctification, Paul...and every time you do, Fred, KC, and I (plus others) work to show you where you are either using the wrong words, or seriously do not understand sanctification.

Quotes from Paul:
[quote:abcb67d98a]
I phrase it like this: [b:abcb67d98a]progressive sanctification is synergistic[/b:abcb67d98a].

could one say, the more "WE" save ourselves??? *This* would be heresy. But virtually *every* text on systematics says *WE*

Progressive sanctification is synergystic.

Can we say that [b:abcb67d98a]God uses our works as one of His means to sanctify us[/b:abcb67d98a]? That is, God has predestined us unto good works. Those good works are of God and without Him we could do nothing. But we are not robots so it is true that we can truly say that WE are doing good works. Put differently, justification is 100% God, [b:abcb67d98a]sanctification is 100%/100%-- God and man[/b:abcb67d98a].

Now, since the morification of sin, or putting off of sin CAUSES us to be more like Christ, and since it can be said that YOU put off the sin (if YOU didn't then who?), [b:abcb67d98a]then didn't your work sanctify you[/b:abcb67d98a]. Again, I am saying that [b:abcb67d98a]God USES our works as MEANS[/b:abcb67d98a] to make us more and more like Christ, and that is progressive sanctification. This is what i mean by "works sanctifying you."

All I said was that[b:abcb67d98a] God USES our works as a means to sanctify us[/b:abcb67d98a].
[/quote:abcb67d98a]

But then you post and say:

[quote:abcb67d98a]Note,[b:abcb67d98a] I am not saying our works sanctify us[/b:abcb67d98a].
[/quote:abcb67d98a]

Which is it, Paul? If I am missing what you are saying it is because you are saying two different things through your posts. And I have read every word you have written in this discussion, so please dispence with the line, "If you would all just read what I have written."

Be sure, I have not been saying that we are inactive. But [b:abcb67d98a]our works are not the means[/b:abcb67d98a] of sanctification, they are the [i:abcb67d98a]result[/i:abcb67d98a]. This is foundationally where you are wrong. Our works are not a means of sanctification. We must be active in our obedience to God. This proves our love for Him (1 John 2:3; 5:3), and gives us reason for assurance - if we are obedient we can be sure we are indeed saved and empowered by the Spirit to do good works.

I would never say that we just sit there and let God work. God in sanctifying us gives us the ability to obey and to choose what is right over what is wrong. We cannot think that we just sit by and let God work and do whatever we want. We must grow in grace, we must use the means He has given so that we are striving to be obedient and do good works. (but the works are not the means).

The main point I have tried to make is that our active obedience and good works is not what He uses to sanctify us, but is instead the result of our being sanctified and the evidence that He is sanctifying us.

Of course we will never obey perfectly until we are glorified, for until then we are living in a fallen body, this sinful flesh that wars with the spirit. That is why for now we must beat our bodies down into submission and deny ourselves. But if God were not sanctifying us we would have no ability to do so. And doing so does not further our sanctification or make us more like Christ....we do these things because we are being sanctified and because we are being made more like Christ.

Now let me ask one last question to clarify the argument:

[b:abcb67d98a]Are our good works a means of our sanctification?[/b:abcb67d98a]

If you answer yes, then we are being saved by our good works, instead of by grace. Goodbye Sola Gratia!

Phillip

[Edited on 5-18-04 by pastorway]