"That which is done away" - 2 Cor. 3

[JoannaV]

Worldwide Church of God. Denial of Trinity = cult. Seventh day Sabbath keeping. NCT was essentially what they changed to, although now I think they identify with "Trinitarian theology", Barth, etc.

I'm thinking it sounds like the person you are talking to essentially views the "law of Moses" as being only for physical Israel and the "law of Christ" as being for spiritual Israel, and is only considering one use of the law? They called the moral law "eternal, unchanging" so you'd think they'd at least be open to learning a bit more about it from the OT and not just focusing on the Sermon on the Mount.

 

[Peairtach]

for physical Israel and the "law of Christ" as being for spiritual Israel,

Remember that both the Church and the Jews are both physical and spiritual, and that some of the Jews ("physical Israel") are in the Church ("spiritual Israel").

 

[Peairtach]

Pergy, there are one or two pdf booklets on the law on this page from the "Christian Institute" website, a British lobby group, including one on the threefold division of the law:
Theology Publications | Resources | The Christian Institute

 

[SeanPatrickCornell]

Worldwide Church of God. Denial of Trinity = cult. Seventh day Sabbath keeping. NCT was essentially what they changed to, although now I think they identify with "Trinitarian theology", Barth, etc.

I'm thinking it sounds like the person you are talking to essentially views the "law of Moses" as being only for physical Israel and the "law of Christ" as being for spiritual Israel, and is only considering one use of the law? They called the moral law "eternal, unchanging" so you'd think they'd at least be open to learning a bit more about it from the OT and not just focusing on the Sermon on the Mount.

Joanna, I "grew up" with the WCG also!

Small world.

 

[J.Paton24May1824]

The 10 commandments are reflective of God's righteousness. They are a manifestation of God's character. Since God does not change. If God hates murder, He always hates murder. The only one of the 10 commandments that is not a moral commandment is the one regarding the Sabbath day. Half of the commandments deal with our relationship to God and the other half deal with our relationship with man.
"Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy" was a Old Testament standard, and that is why in the NT all the other 9 commandments are repeated. The one about the Sabbath is not repeated, as we know.

The Sabbath has been fulfilled in Christ. There is no longer an obligation to keep the Sabbath. We worship on the Lord's Day (the day Jesus rose from the dead).
We have entered into God's rest. We have the reality and do not need the symbol. The other 9 commandments are still reflective of Godly virtues that should be manifest in the life of a true Christian. So the other 9 still become the obligation of the believer even though we are under the New Covenant.

 

[MightyManfred]

I am noodling the 2nd LBC and wondering about its content on the Christian Sabbath (which is a term never used in Scripture - Christian worship is never said to have been on a sabbath, but on the first day of the week, until John declared that to be The Lord's Day) and the Law of God known as the 10 Commandments. To worship God on the Lord's Day is not revealed in nature or general revelation yet the 2nd LBC (and Westminster) declare that it is part of what God wrote on the heart of every man. The 4th Commandment is explicitly addressed to the Hebrews and taught to them for the first time when they were in the Exodus feeding on manna. Where is the observance or penalty for lack thereof before Exodus 16? Wouldn't there be if it was part of the universal moral law of God? Is it not possible that God's moral or natural law, written on the souls of all men, is contained - but not defined - in the Law of Moses? Many moral laws (murder, marriage, envy, etc.) are seen in Scripture before enforcement of the Sabbath - which is only revealed by God to the Hebrews. I know our Presbyterian brothers have a different view of the covenants than some of us reformed Baptists and I think the foundation for our differences is in God's dealing with Abraham and Moses. Galatians 4 makes it very clear that what Moses was given on Sinai was law, not grace. In His sermon on the mount, Christ expounded the moral law - not touching on the sabbath. Claiming to have fulfilled Moses and the Prophets - much more than the 10 Commandments. And Hebrews 8 shows me the new covenant is not the same as the old one - same as how Paul described them in Gal 4.

If we are serious about Sempre Reformanda, we should be willing to ask serious questions about our confessions - they are not the rule, merely good and useful aids.

 

[Pergamum]

He he..... the above quote is representative of 60-70% of my supporting churches.

Somehow, only 9 of the Ten Commandments of the Decalogue (which were given as one unit) squeezed their way past ("Hold it right there, Sabbath.... I see you trying to sneak past...we don't want your kind around here any more!")

Despite Jesus obeying the Sabbath perfectly, and even correcting the Pharisees' false use of it, He nonetheless cancels it out?

 

[Mushroom]

The only one of the 10 commandments that is not a moral commandment is the one regarding the Sabbath day.

It sure is a relief to have one who is evidently in a place of appropriate authority clear that one up for us.

 

[py3ak]

[Moderator]Gentlemen, let's remember where we are, and keep all posts within the boundaries set out previously.

Sabbath -- Again, our standards are clear: arguments against the abiding command to observe the Sabbath are not allowed.

[/Moderator]

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Just an FYI. I feel the need to post this ever so once in a while. Here is a Reformed Baptist working out the Sabbath for the Christian from the Old and New Testatment passages that also include the Colossians and Hebrews passages. Rich Barcellos does a great job with a lot of Old Testament passages also.

Some Reformed Baptists on the Sabbath Concerning Colossians and Hebrews « RPCNA Covenanter

 

[MightyManfred]

[Moderator]Gentlemen, let's remember where we are, and keep all posts within the boundaries set out previously.

Sabbath -- Again, our standards are clear: arguments against the abiding command to observe the Sabbath are not allowed.

[/Moderator]

Is a serious question about the veracity of that statement permitted?

 

[Peairtach]

The 10 commandments are reflective of God's righteousness. They are a manifestation of God's character. Since God does not change. If God hates murder, He always hates murder. The only one of the 10 commandments that is not a moral commandment is the one regarding the Sabbath day. Half of the commandments deal with our relationship to God and the other half deal with our relationship with man.
"Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy" was a Old Testament standard, and that is why in the NT all the other 9 commandments are repeated. The one about the Sabbath is not repeated, as we know.

The Sabbath has been fulfilled in Christ. There is no longer an obligation to keep the Sabbath. We worship on the Lord's Day (the day Jesus rose from the dead).
We have entered into God's rest. We have the reality and do not need the symbol. The other 9 commandments are still reflective of Godly virtues that should be manifest in the life of a true Christian. So the other 9 still become the obligation of the believer even though we are under the New Covenant.

The Sabbath is a moral command, that we set aside time for rest and formal worship, positively one seventh of the week, and in the NT on the first day of the week.

The Sabbath command is repeated in the NT e.g.

And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. (Mark 2:27)

We have not entered into God's rest, in the way that Christ has already done, until we enter into God's rest at death. We are still in a warfare as Joshua and the Israelites were when they entered the Land. Johua and the Israelites had not entered God's rest, and neither have we. Their rest in the Land was only relative and not ultimate, as is ours. Even by the time of David, who had given them rest from their enemies all around, the Israelites had not entered God's rest, and so there still was a weekly Sabbath for them, called in Psalm 95, "Today".

Since therefore it remains for some to enter it (God's rest), and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again He appoints a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”

For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on.

So then, there remains the keeping of a Sabbath for the (NT) people of God, (Heb 4:6-9)

 

[py3ak]

[Moderator]Gentlemen, let's remember where we are, and keep all posts within the boundaries set out previously.

Sabbath -- Again, our standards are clear: arguments against the abiding command to observe the Sabbath are not allowed.

[/Moderator]

Is a serious question about the veracity of that statement permitted?

Of course. This is not the thread for it, however, as this thread is about the NCT misinterpretation of 2 Corinthians 3. Please ask your question in the FAQ forum: FAQ & Rules
Indeed, it's possible that you may already find your question answered in one of the previous threads in that area.

 

[JoannaV]

The kingdom of heaven is come! Christ reigns! And yet, we pray that the kingdom may come quickly. We rest in Christ! And yet, we are still living in the world and struggling with it. Once we worked 6 days in order to then rest and worship God. Now we rest before going out into the world. There came a Sabbath day that Jesus did not observe, a Sabbath when his body lay in the tomb...then the next day he rose and was worshipped. There were aspects of the Sabbath that were ceremonial, that were specifically for Israel, that involved sacrifices. There is another aspect of it that existed from the very first week.

 

[MightyManfred]

Jesus kept the Sabbath before He was crucified because He was born under the Law and had to keep it to earn His standing as the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of His people. There is no evidence that Christians kept the Sabbath nor called the first day of the week a sabbath. I'll not say more so as to avoid getting another warning

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Perhaps the most valuable, because the most important and explicit, as well as the most learned, witness, is Eusebius of Cæsarea, who was in his prime about A. D. 325. In a commentary on the ninety-second Psalm, which, the reader will remember, is entitled, "A psalm or song for the Sabbath day," he says: "The Word" (Christ) "by the new covenant translated and transferred the feast of the Sabbath to the morning light, and gave us the symbol of the true rest, the saving Lord's day, the first of light, in which the Saviour gained the victory over death. On this day, which is the first of the Light and the true Sun, we assemble after the interval of six days, and celebrate holy and spiritual Sabbath; even all nations redeemed by him throughout the world assemble, and do those things according to the spiritual law which were decreed for the priests to do on the Sabbath. All things which it was duty to do on the Sabbath, these we have transferred to the Lord's day, as more appropriately belonging unto it, because it has the precedence, and is first in rank, and more honorable than the Jewish Sabbath. It hath been enjoined on us that we should meet together on this day, and it is evidence that we should do these things announced in this psalm.''pp. 537,8
R. L. Dabney Discussions Vol. 1

Maybe you might be incorrect Stuart.

 

[MightyManfred]

Not to put too fine a point on it, Randy, but my point - not properly phrased, for sure - was intended to seek biblical evidence of Christians calling the Lord's Day a sabbath. By 325 A.D. the heresy meter was routinely pegged in the red.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Not to put too fine a point on it, Randy, but my point - not properly phrased, for sure - was intended to seek biblical evidence of Christians calling the Lord's Day a sabbath. By 325 A.D. the heresy meter was routinely pegged in the red.

Just let me clarify something. Are you calling the Christian Sabbath a heretical aberration?

 

[MightyManfred]

Just let me clarify something. Are you calling the Christian Sabbath a heretical aberration?

Not at all. I am merely pointing out that calling it such is an extra-biblical tradition that has lots of Jewish baggage. We Baptists do not see the relationship with national Israel or the covenant of works the same way as you, our Presbyterian brothers, do. My interest is in lining up with the Word of God, even if that does not line up with one of the great confessions of the faith.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Just let me clarify something. Are you calling the Christian Sabbath a heretical aberration?

Not at all. I am merely pointing out that calling it such is an extra-biblical tradition that has lots of Jewish baggage. We Baptists do not see the relationship with national Israel or the covenant of works the same way as you, our Presbyterian brothers, do. My interest is in lining up with the Word of God, even if that does not line up with one of the great confessions of the faith.

Stuart, I was a Particular (Reformed) Baptist for 30 years. You are gravely mistaken.

 

[MightyManfred]

Stuart, I was a Particular (Reformed) Baptist for 30 years. You are gravely mistaken.

In what am I gravely mistaken? I take no offense at being corrected.

 

[py3ak]

[Moderator]Thread closed. It is perfectly possible to be a Baptist and hold to the confessional view of the first day of the week as being the Christian sabbath, called in Scripture "the Lord's day."

May I remind everyone that this is a confessional board. There's a reason you are asked to indicate to which confession you subscribe when you join. Subscription is a condition of membership.[/Moderator]